THE FULL LANDSLIDE TRIAL TRANSCRIPT
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS
FORT WORTH DIVISION
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA . CRIMINAL ACTION NO.
. 4:00-CR-054-Y
VS.
.
.
THOMAS REEDY (1)
. November 27, 2000
JANICE REEDY (2)
. 2:05 p.m.
LANDSLIDE, INC.(3)
.
. . . .
. . .
VOLUME I
TRIAL TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
BEFORE THE HONORABLE TERRY R. MEANS
UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE, and a jury.
APPEARANCES:
For the United States: Ms.
Terri M. Moore
Mr. Ronald C.H. Eddins
Assistant United States Attorneys
801 Cherry Street, Suite 1700
Fort Worth, Texas 76102
(817) 252-5200
For Defendant Thomas
Mr. Wes Ball
Reedy and Landslide, Inc.: Ball & Hase
4025 Woodland Park Boulevard
Suite 100
Arlington, Texas 76013
(817) 860-5000
For Defendant Janice Reedy: Mr. Michael P. Heiskell
Johnson, Vaughn & Heiskell
600 Texas Street, Second Floor
Fort Worth, Texas 76102-4612
(817) 877-5321
Official Court Reporter: Eileen M. Brewer
501 West Tenth Street
Fort Worth, Texas 76102-3637
(817) 334-0104
Proceedings recorded by mechanical stenography, transcript produced by
computer-aided transcription.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
P R O C E E D I N G S,
THE COURT: This is Cause No. 4:00-CR-054-Y.
Ms. Moore, who are your witnesses?
MS. MOORE: Steed Huggins, S-T-E-E-D; Dane Ritcheson;
and Steve Nelson.
THE COURT: All right. Gentlemen, would you please
raise your right hands to be sworn.
(The three witnesses are sworn.)
THE COURT: All three have said "I do." You're now
sworn and required to appear upon request of the government.
Ms. Moore, when do you wish these gentlemen to return?
MS. MOORE: At 8:30 a.m. in the morning.
THE COURT: 8:30 a.m. in the morning, gentlemen.
You're free to go until then.
All right. We'll be bringing in the jury, and I'll be
back here upon their having been seated.
(Court in recess, 2:06 p.m. until 2:15 p.m.)
THE COURT: Let's be seated.
This is Cause No. 4:00-CR-054-Y, United States of America
versus Thomas Reedy, Janice Reedy, and Landslide, Incorporated.
Are the parties ready to proceed?
MS. MOORE: The government is ready, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Defendant Tom Reedy and Landslide are
ready, Your Honor.
MR. HEISKELL: Defendant Janice Reedy is ready, Your
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Honor.
THE COURT: Thank you.
I'm Judge Terry R. Means, and I will
be presiding over the
trial of this case. The first thing we need to do is to have
each of you stand and raise your right hands and take the oath
as a potential juror. So if you'll please stand at this time.
And please raise your right hand and take this oath.
(The jury panel is sworn.)
THE COURT: You may be seated. Was there anyone
among you who could not answer the question and the oath with
the words "I do"?
(No response.)
THE COURT: All did say "I do." Thank you.
This is a criminal case in which the defendants are named
in 89 counts of an indictment charging them with conspiracy and
certain overt acts in violation of federal laws prohibiting
interstate transportation of visual depictions of minors
engaging in sexually explicit conduct. Twelve jurors are to be
seated plus four alternate jurors.
Those not selected for jurors here will be reporting back
to the District Clerk's Office for further instructions for
possible service in other cases later in the month.
We're going to conduct what is called a voir dire
examination at this time. "Voir dire" is a Texas corruption of
the French words voir dire, and I've deduced that no
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self-respecting Texan is going to go around saying the words
voir dire, so we've corrupted it into voir dire. However you
say it, though, it means the same thing: to speak the truth.
And that's what we're going to ask you to do here today as
we ask you certain questions that will be supplemental to the
questions you've already answered on the juror questionnaire
that you've already filled out.
We will just ask you to answer the questions that I pose
to you and the questions that the parties pose to you as simply
and as honestly as you can. There are no correct or incorrect
answers, because these relate to you and your background and
what you may have done in the past or what your attitudes are.
One thing that is important here is that we find out if
you have a bias, a prejudice, a sufficient leaning one way or
the other that would prevent you from being fair and impartial
in this case.
I'm not suggesting that to you so you can find a quick way
to get off of this jury. It's your duty to serve if you can
serve. However, we do know that it is a part of the human
condition that people have biases and prejudices that they
develop from experience, from upbringing, or from other
sources. And if you find that you have a bias or a prejudice
that would prevent you from serving on this jury fairly and
impartially, we will want to know that.
Now, this may be loosely referred to at times as a child
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pornography case, and we're not going to tell you that you must
favor laws against or in favor of child pornography in order to
be a fair and impartial juror. You may very well be opposed to
what the law says is a crime, or you may be opposed to the law
and say that shouldn't be a crime. The question that will be
posed to you, though, is not either one of those. The question
that will be posed to the final jurors in this case is: Has
the government shown the defendants, or any one of the
defendants, beyond a reasonable doubt to have committed the
crime that is alleged.
You will not have to decide whether you believe the law is
correct or not. That's for the legislature. The job you will
have is to answer the factual question of whether the
government has shown beyond a reasonable doubt that one or more
of these defendants has violated that law.
The prosecution in this case is being pursued on the basis
of an indictment. That indictment is not evidence of guilt of
any of the defendants. It's merely a formal means of bringing
an accusation. It's nothing more. It is an accusation and
nothing more. All of us have, from time to time, been accused
of something we did not do, and you should begin this case
assuming that this accusation is nothing more than that. It
gives notice to the government what it must prove. It gives
notice to the defendants what they must defend against, and
that's all.
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Is there anyone here who believes that because a person
has been accused of something there must be some evidence
against them and would consider that as evidence in this case?
(No response.)
THE COURT: And no one would. All right.
Now, there has been some pretrial publicity about this
case. I believe there was something in one of the papers
today. I'm not sure. I haven't seen it myself. Have any of
you heard or read anything about this case?
(A few hands raised.)
THE COURT: All right. Let me get names, because
we'll want to talk to you in private a little later. First of
all, is it Mr. Moxon?
VENIREPERSON MOXON: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay. Let me just go row by row. Anyone
else on the first row?
(No response.)
THE COURT: Okay. Anyone else?
Yes, sir, Mr. Tunnell.
VENIREPERSON TUNNELL: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Others on the first row?
(No response.)
THE COURT: All right. Second row.
(Prospective Juror No. 21 raises hand.)
THE COURT: You're Mr. Rose?
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Others on the second row?
(No response.)
THE COURT: Third row?
(A few hands raised.)
THE COURT: All right. You must be Mr. Ryan?
VENIREPERSON RYAN: Yes.
THE COURT: Others on the third row. Yes, ma'am.
Are you Ms. Walling?
VENIREPERSON WALLING: Yes.
THE COURT: Others on the third row I didn't see.
(No response.)
THE COURT: Fourth row.
(No response.)
THE COURT: Fifth row.
(A few hands raised.)
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Shaw. And is that
Mr. Goates?
VENIREPERSON FULLER: Fuller.
THE COURT: Fuller. I'm sorry, sir.
Others on the last row?
(No response.)
THE COURT: Anyone else who's had his memory jogged
by the question? The question was: Have any of you -- Do any
of you know anything about this case or believe you know
something about this case by word of mouth, by reading, or
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hearing something in the media?
(Prospective Juror No. 42 raises hand.)
THE COURT: Yes, ma'am, Ms. Crow.
Okay. Anyone else?
(No response.)
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
There will be a point after a while at which we'll bring
you forward individually to discuss what you think you may have
heard or read so that we can determine whether that may
influence you to the point you could not be a fair and
impartial juror.
At this time I will introduce to you the defendants in
this case. Mr. Thomas Reedy, if you'll please stand, sir.
Mr. Thomas Reedy is a defendant, and also Janice Reedy. Both
defendants in this case, and there's a corporate defendant,
Landslide, Incorporated. And, Mr. Reedy, I presume you're
representing that corporation -
MR. BALL: Yes.
THE COURT: -- as an officer; is that correct?
MR. BALL: Yes.
THE COURT: All right. You may be seated.
Do any of you know either of the Reedys or have heard of
Landslide, Incorporated? Do any of you know any one of them?
(No response.)
THE COURT: And no one does. All right.
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I'll ask, then, the counsel for the government, Ms. Moore,
to introduce herself and others at her table.
MS. MOORE: My name is Terri Moore. I'm an Assistant
United States Attorney here in Fort Worth. And at the table
with me is Mr. Ron Eddins. Mr. Eddins is also an Assistant
United States Attorney.
Bob Adams. Mr. Adams is an inspector with the United
States Postal Inspection Service. And Mike Mead. Mr. Mead is
also an inspector with the United States Postal Inspection
Service.
THE COURT: I didn't catch his name. Your name, sir?
INSPECTOR MEAD: Michael Mead, M-E-A-D.
THE COURT: Do any of you know any of the persons who
were just introduced to you by Ms. Terri Moore on behalf of the
United States?
(Prospective Juror No. 43 raises
hand.)
THE COURT: All right. Are you Mr. Murray or
Mr. Mitchell?
VENIREPERSON MITCHELL: Mitchell.
THE COURT: Mr. Mitchell, would you please stand,
sir. You said that you know one of these persons. Who is it
that you know?
VENIREPERSON MITCHELL: Mike.
THE COURT: Mike Mead?
VENIREPERSON MITCHELL: Yes, sir.
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THE COURT: How do you know him?
VENIREPERSON MITCHELL: I work for the postal
service.
THE COURT: Okay. Have you ever been over to his
home?
VENIREPERSON MITCHELL: No.
THE COURT: You don't know him personally as a friend
of yours, or is he just an acquaintance?
VENIREPERSON MITCHELL: Just an acquaintance.
THE COURT: Okay. How long have you known him?
VENIREPERSON MITCHELL: I guess about six months.
THE COURT: Okay. During that time, have you had any
difficulties or disputes with him?
VENIREPERSON MITCHELL: No, sir.
THE COURT: Have you ever been to lunch with him?
VENIREPERSON MITCHELL: No, sir.
THE COURT: All right. So you don't know him very
well.
VENIREPERSON MITCHELL: No, sir.
THE COURT: Would anything about your acquaintance
with him prevent you from being fair and impartial to the defendants in this case?
VENIREPERSON MITCHELL: (Pause.) I don't think so.
THE COURT: Okay. You hesitated a little bit. Does
that mean that you don't, it would not affect you, or you're
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uncertain?
VENIREPERSON MITCHELL: I'm uncertain.
THE COURT: Okay. I'll probably ask you to come up a
little bit later and we'll discuss that further.
Anyone else who recognizes any of the persons who were
just introduced to you by Ms. Moore?
(No response.)
THE COURT: All right. I'm going to then ask the
government counsel to identify for you by name and, if
necessary, other identifying characteristics or facts of who
will testify for the government in this case.
If you hear a common name like Bob Jones, go ahead and
when I ask you if you know someone who is on the list and Bob
Jones is on the list and you know a Bob Jones, go ahead and
raise your hand and then we'll determine whether that Bob Jones
is the same one that she's talking about.
MS. MOORE: Steve Nelson, he's a Dallas police
detective. Mike Marshall, he used to work for Microsoft; now
works for the Attorney General for the State of Texas. Joe
Ullmann, U-L-L-M-A-N-N, FBI. Steed, S-T-E-E-D, Huggins, United
States Postal Inspection Service.
Dane Ritcheson, United States Postal Inspection Service.
Jerry Patterson, United States Postal Inspection Service. Don
Smiddy, United States Postal Inspection Service. David Cruz;
Carol Clark; Rex Rector, works for the SEC; Frank Super, FBI;
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Donna Kibbie, FBI; Dan Mikolay, United States Customs;
Ms. Mendoza that works for IBM just as a records custodian.
I can't pronounce this. Hang on.
(Ms. Moore confers with case
agent.)
MS. MOORE: David Hirobayashi from Sharp computers;
Sharon Girling, police detective from England. That's about
it.
THE COURT: All right. Do any of you know any of the
persons whose names were just listed for you by the United
States Attorney?
(No response.)
THE COURT: And no one does. All right.
Mr. Ball, would you please introduce those at the defense
table.
MR. BALL: Good afternoon. My name is Wes Ball. I'm
an attorney with an office in Arlington. I practice primarily
here in Tarrant County. Seated next to me is Thomas Reedy, my
client. I also represent a corporation called Landslide,
Incorporated.
Seated next to Mr. Reedy is Mike Heiskell, an attorney
here in Fort Worth, Texas. Mr. Heiskell will be representing
Janice Reedy, one of the defendants who's seated down at the
end of counsel table in the pink sweater.
Also with us, sitting over here are Nona Dodson and
Jennifer Lapinski. They're assisting us in this trial.
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THE COURT: Do any of you know any of the persons
whose names were just called out for you and introduced to you
by Mr. Wes Ball, counsel on behalf of Mr. Reedy?
(No response.)
THE COURT: And no one does. Thank you.
As I mentioned to you, this is a
case that involves an
allegation of interstate transmission of depictions of sexual
activity by minors, and I would then ask: Do any of you have a
bias or a prejudice in favor of or against the government in a
case like this? A bias or a prejudice in favor of or against
the government in a case like this?
(Prospective Juror No. 19 raises hand.)
THE COURT: Yes, sir, Mr. Delario.
VENIREPERSON DELARIO: Yes, I do.
THE COURT: Okay. Could you stand, please. Could
you be a little more explicit.
VENIREPERSON DELARIO: I believe it's not right
to have minors, children, photographed for the benefit of
adults -
THE COURT: Well, you're -
VENIREPERSON DELARIO: -- in sexual activity.
THE COURT: Right. And your opinion is in direct --
directly parallel and is in keeping with what the law is in
this country. We have a law that prohibits that sort of thing,
and the question that we'll have here is, not so much do you
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agree with that law or oppose that law, because it's perfectly
appropriate for you to have your opinion that that's not
appropriate and ought to be illegal, and in fact it is illegal.
The question that we'll have to pose to you is suppose that you
were placed in the jury box here. Could you look at the facts
of the case and consider just those facts that will be put on
to the jury from the witness chair and in the exhibits and
decide whether or not the government had proven its case beyond
a reasonable doubt. Could you do that, and could you do that
without bias or prejudice in favor of the government?
VENIREPERSON DELARIO: I'm not sure based on the
question asked. Now or later or what I hear? I don't know how
to answer that right now.
THE COURT: Okay. Let me see if I understand. You
are concerned that because of the intensity of your feelings
that you might favor the government and not be able to give the
defendants a fair trial?
VENIREPERSON DELARIO: That's correct.
THE COURT: Okay. Well, we may explore that more
later. Thank you, sir.
Is there anyone else? All right.
(Prospective Juror No. 45 raises hand.)
THE COURT: Are you Ms. Hindman?
VENIREPERSON HINDMAN: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Please stand. Tell me what you wanted to
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say.
VENIREPERSON HINDMAN: Pretty much what you had asked
him. I don't know if I could -- I would be in agreement, of
course, with the government. But I don't know if I could
fairly state whether a person is guilty or not because of
strong feelings.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
I think I might be able to draw an analogy to a drug case
a little bit better. We have this question come up in drug
prosecutions all the time. People have very strong feelings
about drugs and drug trafficking. Of course, that's totally
different from this case, but it may help show the point.
The question in a drug case is not whether you agree with
the drug laws. Some people agree and some people disagree.
Some people think that drugs should be legalized. The question
in those cases is: At the conclusion of all the evidence, has
the government shown the defendant in a drug case to have
delivered marihuana or delivered cocaine or possessed it with
intent to deliver, whatever the indictment is.
So the focus of the jury is on the facts, not on the law.
The law is my job. The facts belong to the jury, and so we
will be asking each of you not to focus on the law but to focus
on the facts.
Now, if your attitude is such that you are so opposed to
depictions of minors in this way, or you believe strongly that
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that's a First Amendment question and you don't think there
should be any laws against it at all, we will ask you can you
put those aside to the point that you can look at the facts and
determine whether the government has proven its case beyond a
reasonable doubt that that law was violated.
So I would say again to the two of you who have expressed
forthrightly and honestly your concern about bias, think about
those matters. We'll take it up with you a little bit later.
We appreciate your honesty and forthrightness on it.
Anyone else?
(Prospective Juror No. 31 raises hand.)
THE COURT: Yes, ma'am. Ms. Blum?
VENIREPERSON BLUM: I feel like I just couldn't be
unbiased, because I have such strong feelings against
pornography of any kind, much less children.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
Anyone else?
(No response.)
THE COURT: All right. Thank you very much.
Do any of you have any religious, moral, or ethical
convictions that would prevent you from sitting in judgment of
another person? I'm not talking about this case, but there are
some people who believe that either because of their religion
or other influences that it is inappropriate to sit in judgment
of another person and that serving on a jury would be sitting
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in judgment of another person. Anyone who believes that?
(No response.)
THE COURT: And no one does. All right. Thank you.
I've mentioned a couple of times here already that the
burden will be on the government to prove its case beyond a
reasonable doubt. That raises this possibility. It may be
possible at the end of this case you will believe that one or
more of the defendants is probably guilty. The question,
though, will be has the government proven that person or
persons guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
So you could believe that someone is probably guilty but
still have a reasonable doubt about whether they are in fact
guilty. Can you see how that could happen? Anyone who cannot?
Anyone please tell me if you do not understand what I'm talking
about.
(No response.)
THE COURT: All right. Ms. Quirk, you've been paying
close attention. What would be the appropriate verdict if you
believed that a person was probably guilty but you're not
convinced beyond a reasonable doubt?
VENIREPERSON QUIRK: I could not render a verdict.
THE COURT: Or would the verdict appropriately be not
guilty?
VENIREPERSON QUIRK: Yes, yes.
THE COURT: All right. Anyone who disagrees with
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that?
(No response.)
THE COURT: The appropriate verdict in a jury case
where the jury believes that a defendant probably committed the
crime but is not convinced beyond a reasonable doubt is not
guilty. Anyone who fails to understand that, or understands it
and disagrees?
(No response.)
THE COURT: Anyone?
(No response.)
THE COURT: All right. So to go over it one more
time. This is very important. If at the conclusion of this
case you believe that one or more of the defendants is probably
guilty but you're not convinced beyond a reasonable doubt, I
think you're telling me that you would vote not guilty. Anyone
who could not vote not guilty?
(No response.)
THE COURT: And everyone could. All right. Thank
you.
This next question will bleed over into a question I asked
previously that Mr. Delario and Ms. Hindman reacted to. Also,
Ms. Blum. But if you were on trial here today, would you want
someone like yourself sitting on your jury, or are you just the
kind of person that's likely to convict, especially where
there's an allegation made like in this case? Anyone?
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(No response.)
THE COURT: Concerned about having someone like
yourself on your jury?
(No response.)
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
This case is likely to take this entire week to try. I've
awarded a certain number of hours to each side, and I believe
that we can complete this case this week. The attorneys are
not real happy about it, but I've got to try to finish this
case this week because I've got another trial or two next week.
So I'm going to tell you we'll probably complete this case this
week.
Is there anyone here who has such pressing personal or
business matters that you believe you just should not or cannot
serve on this jury?
(Prospective Juror No. 15 raises hand.)
THE COURT: Yes, sir. Are you Mr. Morgan?
VENIREPERSON MORGAN: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Please stand.
VENIREPERSON MORGAN: Right now I'm interviewing for
a job right now. We have one car, and so if I'm gone with the
car then my wife can't get to work nor pick our children up
from school. We also have a four-year old at home so when
she's gone to work, then I take care of him. So it is very
difficult.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
THE COURT: Okay. Hold on. You may be seated.
(Court confers with court
coordinator.)
THE COURT: Are you the primary caregiver for your
children?
VENIREPERSON MORGAN: No, I wouldn't be the primary
caregiver, I guess.
THE COURT: Well, your wife is currently employed?
VENIREPERSON MORGAN: Part-time.
THE COURT: She's part-time?
VENIREPERSON MORGAN: Right.
THE COURT: And you're looking for jobs just now.
VENIREPERSON MORGAN: That's correct.
THE COURT: And how many children do you have?
VENIREPERSON MORGAN: Three.
THE COURT: What are their ages?
VENIREPERSON MORGAN: Four, ten, and fourteen.
THE COURT: Four, ten, and fourteen. What happens to
the four-year old while your wife is at work?
VENIREPERSON MORGAN: I take care of him.
THE COURT: Okay. If you both were working, what would you do?
VENIREPERSON MORGAN: I'm not sure. I guess we would
have to get someone to take care of him at that point. We
haven't done that.
THE COURT: Okay. And in the immediate past both of
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you have not been working?
VENIREPERSON MORGAN: Not -- There's always been
someone home to take care of him.
THE COURT: Okay. We'll take that into
consideration. Thank you, sir.
Anyone else?
(No response.)
THE COURT: All right. Now, I've asked you several
questions. I don't always cover the waterfront. Is there any
question that I failed to ask or any fact that I failed to
elicit that you think we ought to know that would relate to
your ability to serve on this jury, either from a time
standpoint, an interest standpoint, or from the standpoint of
fairness? Anything we ought to know.
(Prospective Juror No. 7 raises hand.)
THE COURT: Yes, sir, Mr. Moxon
VENIREPERSON MOXON: Medical.
THE COURT: Are you the person I saw --
VENIREPERSON MOXON: I suffer from migraine
headaches, maybe more than one a week.
THE COURT: Are you the fellow I saw in the elevator
this morning?
VENTREPERSON MOXON: I don't know.
THE COURT: Okay. Didn't make an impression on you
if I did.
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Okay. Migraines. Do you have one now?
VENIREPERSON MOXON: I took some medication for one
this morning.
THE COURT: When you're taking medication, are you
sleepy or do you have trouble paying attention?
VENIREPERSON MOXON: Sometimes.
THE COURT: Let me delve into that just a little bit
more. Well, we're going to talk to you privately anyway about
pretrial publicity, so we'll cover that then. Help me
remember. Be sure and raise the question about your migraines.
Anyone else?
(No response.)
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
I'm going to read to you something that relates again to
burden of proof and reasonable doubt, just a couple of
paragraphs, but I want you to listen carefully and then at the
conclusion of that reading I'll ask you a question or two.
In a criminal case the burden is on the government to
prove that the defendant is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
This is a different and higher standard than the preponderance
of the evidence standard that is applied in civil cases. The
law presumes a defendant to be innocent of a crime. Thus, a
defendant, although accused, begins the trial with a clean
slate, that is, with no evidence against him. And the law
permits nothing but legal evidence presented before the jury to
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be considered in support of any charges against the accused.
So the presumption of innocence alone is sufficient to
acquit a defendant unless the jurors are satisfied beyond a
reasonable doubt of the defendant's guilt after careful and
impartial consideration of all the evidence in the case.
It's not necessary that the government prove its case
beyond all possible doubt. The test is one of reasonable
doubt. A reasonable doubt is a doubt based upon reason and
common sense, the kind of doubt that would make a reasonable
person hesitate to act. Proof beyond a reasonable doubt must,
therefore, be proof of such a convincing character that a
reasonable person would not hesitate to rely and act upon it in
the most important of his own affairs.
A defendant is never to be convicted on mere suspicion or
conjecture. The burden is always upon the government to prove
guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. This burden never shifts to
the defendant for the law never imposes upon a defendant in a
criminal case the burden or duty of calling any witnesses or
producing any evidence.
Is there anyone on the panel who could not follow the law
concerning burden of proof or reasonable doubt as I just read
it to you?
(No response.)
THE COURT: And all can. Thank you.
I've mentioned to you previously -- I want to reiterate it
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-- that the defendants are brought here on an indictment. The
indictment is not evidence. It is simply a method by which the
government brings a person to trial.
Once again, is there anyone on the panel who believes that
simply because a defendant has been indicted this is, in and of
itself, some evidence of guilt?
(No response.)
THE COURT: And no one does. What you're saying by
agreeing with me on that is that these defendants have a clean
slate, and at this moment they are innocent of the charges and
will only be found guilty if you find from the evidence that
they've been shown to be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. And
it has to be unanimous.
In a criminal case a defendant does not have to testify.
It's a fundamental, constitutional law that in this country a
person may not be required to testify and may not be required
to present any evidence. That's another way of saying we don't
require a defendant to prove the case -- to disprove the case
against him. And to require a defendant to testify or to put
on evidence would be to place the burden on its head and say
the defendant has to testify. A defendant, instead, has the
right to insist the government prove its case without any help
at all from him or her. So that will be what will be done
here.
Is there anyone here who has a quarrel with that notion,
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with that idea?
(No response.)
THE COURT: Is there anyone here who would hold it
against any of these defendants if they elected not to testify?
(No response.)
THE COURT: Is there anyone here who would hold it
against any of these defendants if they elected not to put on
any testimony?
(No response.)
THE COURT: I take it by your silence you would not
hold that against them, and you will look to the government to
prove its case all by itself beyond a reasonable doubt. Anyone
disagree?
(No response.)
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
Do any of you have a special disability or problem that
would make it difficult or impossible for you to serve as a
member of this jury?
I've heard from Mr. Moxon about migraines. Anyone have a
particular difficulty with seeing? Hearing?
(Prospective Juror No. 29 raises
hand.)
THE COURT: All right. Let me see, Mr. Stone. Could
you stand, please, sir. Oh, you're Mr. Lynn.
VENIREPERSON LYNN: I have trouble hearing.
THE COURT: Okay. How have you heard so far from
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there?
VENIREPERSON LYNN: I couldn't hear you plainly, but
maybe if I sit closer I might.
THE COURT: Right. But you've heard most of what's
gone on, do you think?
VENIREPERSON LYNN: Most everything, yes, sir.
THE COURT: Okay. You would be sitting much closer.
Can you hear me now?
VENIREPERSON LYNN: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay. I'm going to guess you can serve
and that what we would do is if you had difficulty hearing at
any particular point, we would just ask you to raise your hand
and we would repeat what was just said.
VENIREPERSON LYNN: Thank you.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Anyone else, trouble with sight or hearing?
(Several hands raised.)
THE COURT: Yes, Ms. Walling?
VENIREPERSON SPINDOR: Spindor.
THE COURT: I'm sorry, Spindor.
VENIREPERSON SPINDOR: I have a problem hearing,
also, but I do hear fairly well with one ear.
THE COURT: Me, too.
All right. So far you think you've been able to follow
things?
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VENIREPERSON SPINDOR: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Okay. Good. Anyone else? I think --
Yes, sir, Mr. Robertson.
VENIREPERSON ROBERTSON: Yes. I think you pretty
well answered my question. I'm having to strain, but I think
I'm hearing what you're saying. If I can hear better over
there, I guess I could handle it.
THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
And, yes, sir, that is Mr. Fuller -- or Mr. Goates?
VENIREPERSON GOATES: Goates. I've heard maybe half
of what's been said to this point.
THE COURT: All right.
VENIREPERSON GOATES: I can't understand most of
what's been said.
THE COURT: Why don't you go ahead and move up here
to the first row. Mr. Goates is No. 58, and he's moving up to
sit next to No. 12, Ms. Clements.
Does that help?
VENIREPERSON GOATES: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Okay. Others who have difficulty seeing,
hearing, or some other disability that might prevent you from
serving or serving very well? Anyone?
(No response.)
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
Have any of you ever been -- I usually have to do this by
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row, because we usually have a number of positive responses.
Do any of you now work for a law enforcement agency, or any
member of your family or a close friend employed by law
enforcement? Before you answer, let me define family. By
"family" I just mean your children, your brothers and sisters,
or your parents. We don't want to get into aunts, uncles, and
cousins and nephews and nieces. Just your children, your
brothers and sisters, and your parents. Any of them ever been
employed, or have you ever been employed by a law enforcement
agency? First row.
(Prospective Juror No. 1 raises hand.)
THE COURT: Yes, sir, can you help me with your name.
VENIREPERSON LABRUYERE: LA-BRIAR.
THE COURT: That's not so hard, is it?
Mr. Labruyere, would you please stand. Tell me who that
is that's been involved with law enforcement.
VENIREPERSON LABRUYERE: My father was a sheriff
in Ector County.
THE COURT: In which county?
VENIREPERSON LABRUYERE: Ector.
THE COURT: Okay. And how long ago was that?
VENIREPERSON LABRUYERE: Twenty years ago.
THE COURT: Were you at home when he was there?
VENIREPERSON LABRUYERE: (Nods head.)
THE COURT: So you heard tales around the dinner
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table about his work, I guess.
VENIREPERSON LABRUYERE: Right.
THE COURT: Anything about that time and the tales
that he would tell or the information he would bring home that
would prevent you from being fair and impartial in this case?
VENIREPERSON LABRUYERE: No, sir.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
Others on the first row?
(No response.)
THE COURT: Second row?
(Several hands raised.)
THE COURT: Mr. Goates.
VENIREPERSON GOATES: Does that include military
police?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
VENIREPERSON GOATES: I was in the military police in
the service over 30 years ago.
THE COURT: All right. How long did you so serve?
VENIREPERSON GOATES: I'm sorry?
THE COURT: How long did you serve?
VENIREPERSON GOATES: I was in the military police 13
months, 13 days.
THE COURT: I guess that says you didn't enjoy it all
that much.
VENIREPERSON GOATES: I transferred from the Air
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Force to the Army.
THE COURT: All right, sir. Anything about that that
would prevent you from being fair and impartial in this case?
VENIREPERSON GOATES: No, sir.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
And then I think on the next row we had a couple of ladies
who were answering yes. Ms. Reynolds.
VENIREPERSON REYNOLDS: Yes, sir. My first husband
was a policeman for the City of Fort Worth.
THE COURT: Okay. And anything about your time with
him and the things that you knew because of being married to
him that would prevent you from being fair and impartial in
this case?
VENIREPERSON REYNOLDS: No, sir.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
And, Ms. Havens.
VENIREPERSON HAVENS: Yes, sir. I worked for the
City of Arlington and I worked there for 15 years. I've been
retired from there for about five years now.
THE COURT: Okay. And so you're not working in any
law enforcement now.
VENIREPERSON HAVENS: Not right now, no, sir.
THE COURT: Anything about your 15 years with the
Arlington PD that would prevent you from looking at this case
fairly and impartially in making up your mind about whether the
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government has proven its case beyond a reasonable doubt, based
solely on the evidence that would be presented in the case from
the witness chair?
VENIREPERSON HAVENS: I'd do the best I could to make
a fair judgment.
THE COURT: Once more, please.
VENIREPERSON HAVENS: I said I'd do the best I could
to make a fair judgment.
THE COURT: Okay. Now, having heard that, do you
believe that you would be able to follow the instructions of
the Court to be fair and impartial and to make up your mind
based solely on what you see and hear from the witness chair
and see in exhibits?
VENIREPERSON HAVENS: I'll do the best I can.
THE COURT: You don't want to let me pin you down, do
you?
VENIREPERSON HAVENS: No, sir.
THE COURT: What is your concern, if any, about your
ability to be fair and impartial?
VENIREPERSON HAVENS: During my time working, I've
heard and seen so many things that just -- it's not close to
what I worked with but it might interfere with it.
THE COURT: All right. I'm inferring from what
you're saying that you're concerned about your ability to be
fair and impartial.
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VENIREPERSON HAVENS: I want to be fair and I'll do
the best I can to be fair. I'm not going to say I'm not going
to be.
THE COURT: All right. I may need to discuss things
with you further later, but maybe not. Thank you very much. I
appreciate your forthrightness.
(Court confers with court coordinator.)
THE COURT: Anyone else on the second row involved in
law enforcement or related or a friend of someone who is?
(No response.)
THE COURT: All right. Proceeding to the third row.
Anyone?
(No response.)
THE COURT: And the fourth row?
(No response.)
THE COURT: And the last row?
(Prospective Juror No. 56 raises hand.)
THE COURT: Yes, ma'am, Ms. Gerhardt.
VENIREPERSON GERHARDT: My mother worked for Esmor in
Fort Worth.
THE COURT: Worked where?
VENIREPERSON GERHARDT: Esmor.
THE COURT: I still didn't understand that.
VENIREPERSON GERHARDT: At Esmor.
THE COURT: That's a town?
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VENIREPERSON GERHARDT: No, security here in Fort
VENIREPERSON GERHARDT: No, security here in Fort
Worth.
THE COURT: Oh, it's a security company?
VENIREPERSON GERHARDT: Uh-huh. No, I don't know
what they call it, but that's where they parole the sexual
offenders here in Fort Worth.
THE COURT: Okay. Anything about your conversations
with him (sic), if any, that would affect your ability here to
be fair and impartial, both to the government and to the
defendants?
VENIREPERSON GERHARDT: My mother never talked about
her work at home. I just knew that's where she worked.
THE COURT: Okay. So the fact that she worked for
law enforcement, just that simple fact, would not affect your
ability to be fair and impartial?
VENIREPERSON GERHARDT: She never brought any of it
home with her, so I don't know of anyone that was paroled there
or what they did or what she did.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
Anyone else on the last row?
(No response.)
THE COURT: Anyone who's had his memory jogged now by
hearing the others?
(Prospective Juror No. 23 raises
hand.)
THE COURT: Yes, ma'am. You're Ms. Reynolds?
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VENIREPERSON REYNOLDS: I made a mistake.
THE COURT: Okay.
VENIREPERSON REYNOLDS: My first husband was a
policeman in Kingsville, Texas.
THE COURT: All right. Any difference now in where
he served? Does working in Kingsville make you a little less
willing to serve or able?
VENIREPERSON REYNOLDS: No.
THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
All right. Anyone else?
(No response.)
THE COURT: All right. Have any of you at any time
been involved in a criminal matter that concerned yourself, a
member of your family as I've defined it, or a close friend, as
a witness or a victim? Once again, have any of you been
involved in a criminal matter that concerned yourself, a member
of your immediate family as I've defined it, or a close friend,
as a witness or a victim? First row.
(Prospective Juror No. 3 raises hand.)
THE COURT: Yes, sir. Mr. Wood.
VENIREPERSON WOOD: Yes, sir. My 15-year old
daughter was kidnapped. It's been about 16 years ago.
THE COURT: All right. I hope she was returned to
you.
VENIREPERSON WOOD: Four hours later.
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THE COURT: Okay. Anything about that traumatic
event that would prevent you from being fair and impartial in
this case?
VENIREPERSON WOOD: No.
THE COURT: All right, sir. Thank you.
Others on the first row?
(Prospective Juror No. 5 raises hand.)
THE COURT: Yes, sir, Mr. Otwell.
VENIREPERSON OTWELL: Me and my family, including my
dad and mother, are in a lawsuit right now over some
misappropriation of money, and we were told and told our money,
this and that, and it's a scam more or less.
THE COURT: So is that a civil case?
VENIREPERSON OTWELL: No, it's not. It's at the
county level at this point.
THE COURT: Now, are you the plaintiff? Are you
suing to get your money back?
VENIREPERSON OTWELL: Yes, but my dad and my uncle
are the two people, I guess, whose names appear most often.
But I'm involved in it and I've lost money on it, also.
THE COURT: Okay. Is there a criminal case that's
coming out of that as well?
VENIREPERSON OTWELL: I feel like there is. There
are two different states. This person that is implicated in
this case, there are two other states, Alabama and Wisconsin,
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which is involved in this.
THE COURT: Okay. Anything about your experience in
that case that would prevent you in any way from being fair and
impartial to both sides in this case?
VENIREPERSON OTWELL: No, sir.
THE COURT: All right, sir. Thank you.
Continuing on the first row.
(No response.)
THE COURT: Second row? Again, the question: Have
any of you been involved in a criminal matter that concerns
yourself or a member of your family or a close friend as a
witness or a victim?
(No response.)
THE COURT: Third row?
(No response.)
THE COURT: Fourth row?
(Prospective Juror No. 44 raises hand.)
THE COURT: Yes, ma'am, Ms. Murray.
VENIREPERSON MURRAY: Yes. I was a witness on a
murder trial.
THE COURT: Hold on just a second. We need to get
Mr. Forehand some water.
(Brief pause in proceedings.)
THE COURT: Okay. Ms. Murray, tell me about your
brush with a criminal matter.
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VENIREPERSON MURRAY: In high school my senior year
my ex-best friend committed a murder. I wasn't with him at the
time, but I was with him the other day so I had to be -- I was
a witness against him.
THE COURT: Okay. Anything about that very difficult
situation that would prevent you from being fair and impartial
here?
VENIREPERSON MURRAY: No, that was some years ago.
THE COURT: Did you believe that he was fairly
treated by the authorities?
VENIREPERSON MURRAY: Uh-huh.
THE COURT: So you don't have any complaint about
that?
VENIREPERSON MURRAY: No.
THE COURT: Okay. Thank you very much.
Others on the fourth row?
(No response.)
THE COURT: And on the last row?
(Prospective Juror No. 50 raises hand.)
THE COURT: Yes, ma'am, are you Ms. Lykins?
VENIREPERSON LYKINS: Uh-huh.
THE COURT: Okay.
VENIREPERSON LYKINS: I was a victim of a crime. My
16-year old brother-in-law was murdered here in Fort Worth in a
a drive-by shooting.
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THE COURT: All right. Were you with him or near him
at that time?
VENIREPERSON LYKINS: No. He was just like my son,
though.
THE COURT: But, I mean, you were not present.
VENIREPERSON LYKINS: No, sir.
THE COURT: Okay. Anything about that very tragic
situation that would prevent you from being fair and impartial
in this case to the government and to the defendants?
VENIREPERSON LYKINS: No, sir.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
Anyone else who's had his memory jogged by these questions
and answers?
(No response.)
THE COURT: All right. When the evidence begins to
be put on by the government, undoubtedly some of the witnesses
will be representatives of the government, that is, they'll be
in law enforcement. And when they take the stand we will ask
you to give no greater credence or believability to any of
those witnesses than you would to any other witness. In other
words, we will ask you not to give additional credibility,
believability, to a law enforcement witness than you would to
any other witness, whether presented by the government or by
the defendants.
We will ask you to make credibility assessments once you
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hear their testimony. We will ask you to observe them and to
determine whether you believe they are telling the truth or
they have a good memory, whether they seem to be comfortable
with what they're saying, that sort of thing. We will want you
to make credibility assessments and not just assume every
person is as credible as the next.
But we will ask you not to make that credibility
assessment based on what they're wearing or what they do for a
living. Anyone here who would find that difficult to do?
You're just so impressed with or so loyal to law enforcement
officials that you would feel a need to lean in their direction
and give their testimony greater credence or believability?
Or, on the other hand, you've had a bad brush with the law or
law enforcement and you are more inclined to disbelieve what they
say. Anyone?
(No response.)
THE COURT: All right. No one does. All right.
Thank you.
I have granted the parties some additional time to ask you
some questions on their own. I've given the government 15
minutes and the defendants ten minutes each.
Ms. Moore, you may proceed.
MS. MOORE: Thank you, Your Honor.
Hopefully, I won't take all 15 minutes, but there are, I
guess, essentially two areas that I want to talk a little bit
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with you about and ask you how you feel about some things. And
I hope that you will do just like you've done with the Judge,
just speak up if I say something where you know I'm talking to
you, okay?
The Judge told you that this case is about essentially
child pornography. That's what we've accused the defendants of
doing is aiding in the conspiracy and aiding and abetting in
the transportation, promotion of child pornography.
Now, the other thing that the Judge told you is that it's
the government's job, it's our duty, to prove this case to the
jury beyond a reasonable doubt. And so what does that mean
exactly? That means that I have a job to do in this courtroom
and that is I've got to convince whatever 12 people are put
over here, I've got to convince each and every one of those
folks, you folks, that these people did what the indictment
accuses them of doing.
And one of the things that has to be done in proving that
is you're going to, unfortunately, have to view some terrible
pictures. I think -- You know, I can't go into the facts of
the case and everything here at jury selection. That's really
for the people once the jury is picked to hear the facts, but I
can tell you that. And here's something that worries me about
that. If you don't speak up and say something about it now
and you're sitting over in the jury box and you fall out, okay?
Some people just might not be able to handle it, because it's
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bad.
What would we do then? We've got to have 12 jurors to
continue on. Well, now, the Judge will pick -- you know, there
will be some alternates here, but that's not really fair to
say, oh, it's a little hotter in here than I anticipated. Let
him do my job for me, or let her step in for me. I really
don't like this. It's not the time to speak up over there once
you're picked. The time to speak up is now, okay, before we
get started. And so you be thinking about that, because I'm
going to ask you if you're going to be up to the task.
The other thing that I have to worry about is if you're
shown these terrible pictures that I'm telling you is coming
your way, are you going to get mad at the government? Okay.
Some people might do that, and I'm not here to criticize you
if you're one of those people. I'm not here to argue with you or
try to change your mind about it, because, you know, you're
entitled to your opinions. I just want to know what they are,
okay, before you're picked and put over here in the box and
then it's kind of too late.
And so I would be worried about somebody saying, well, I
cannot believe, Ms. Moore, that you brought that in here and
made me look at that. I'm mad at you and, therefore, I'm going
to vote not guilty. See, that would be something I would worry
about, right? Can y'all see that? Maybe I'm just being
paranoid, but that's something I would worry about, quite
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frankly.
And you heard the Judge say it's my duty, it's my burden
of proof, so I've got to do that. It's not that I want to make
your life miserable or make you sick at your stomach or make
you have a nightmare. I've got to prove that.
And so take it from the defendant's point of view, too. I
just told you my point of view. I would setting here worried
you would think, oh, my goodness. I'm mad at you. I can't
believe you brought that in here. I'm just going to vote not
guilty to teach you a lesson. First of all, let me ask you
that before I take it from the defendants' point of view. Is
there anybody here that feels like that that's what they would
do? And, again, I'm not going to try to change your mind. I
just want to know.
(Prospective Juror No. 49 raises hand.)
VENIREPERSON KOPOLOWICZ: I don't believe -- I just
can't look at the pictures.
MS. MOORE: Okay. So it's not that you would take it
out on anybody. You just think you would be one of those that
just fell out. If you saw it, you couldn't handle it.
VENIREPERSON KOPOLOWICZ: Right.
MS. MOORE: Okay. And let me say this. Just like
it's my job I've got to show you this stuff. It's your job,
you got to look at it, okay? The jury has to make a decision
on whether it is or is not child pornography and whether it is,
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you know, these people are guilty of promoting it. And so if
it's your job, you got to look at it. I think what I hear you
saying, and, sir, I should have asked you for your name so the
court reporter can write that down. I'm sorry. And way back
there, would you stand up, please.
VENIREPERSON KOPOLOWICZ: Gary Kopolowicz.
MS. MOORE: Okay. And you're saying that as a juror
you wouldn't be able to do your job and look at it?
VENIREPERSON KOPOLOWICZ: Not if pictures are
involved.
MS. MOORE: There's pictures.
VENIREPERSON KOPOLOWICZ: I can't.
MS. MOORE: Like I say, I can't go into the facts of
the case, but I can tell you that.
VENIREPERSON KOPOLOWICZ: I can't.
MS. MOORE: You couldn't handle it. Okay.
And, sir?
VENIREPERSON OTWELL: My name is Dennis Otwell.
MS. MOORE: Yes, sir.
VENIREPERSON OTWELL: Well, I can't say how I would
react. I would hate that it would come to the point where I
would have to look at it, but I don't think that I would just
fall on my face or anything. But that's pretty embarrassing to
me. I'm just not used to that.
MS. MOORE: And, you know, who is? Really, who is?
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Nobody is going to sit there in that jury box and look at that
and not feel some kind of an emotion.
THE COURT: Let me say this, Ms. Moore. It's not as
though we're going to ask you to concentrate on them or spend a
lot of time looking. You will have to see them, apparently.
I'm not going to prejudge that, but apparently you'll be
presented with some photographs. But it's not as though you're
going to be asked to study each one.
Okay. Go ahead.
MS. MOORE: That's true. You don't have to sit there
and take a microscope to it. You can look it at it and --
Anyway. And, again, you're going to feel something. Of course
you will. You wouldn't be a human being.
My question right now is: Would you be so angry at the
government that even if we proved a case beyond a reasonable
doubt you would refuse to go forward?
VENIREPERSON OTWELL: No.
MS. MOORE: Would anybody feel that way? And, again,
I wouldn't be fussing with you about it or trying to change
your opinion. I just want to know.
Yes, ma'am.
VENIREPERSON QUIRK: I've never seen child
pornography, and I'm afraid if I did see it I would not blame
the government. I would, more or less, blame the defendant.
MS. MOORE: Okay. Well, let's talk about that,
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because I just got though saying let's take it from the
defendants' point of view and then I backed up and said, well,
let's finish this first.
Well, let's take it from the defendants' point of view.
What if, and I'm certainly not saying it's the case in this
situation, but what if they weren't guilty? Okay. What if you
had somebody accused of something and they just didn't do it,
but yet the government is up here showing bad picture after bad
picture. Would you just say, I don't care if they didn't prove
you're guilty or not, just because they showed me bad pictures
I'm going to find you guilty. That doesn't hardly sound fair,
does it?
I mean, you have to take a look at it and say, yes, it is
or is not child pornography, but you have to look at the other
evidence and say are these people responsible? Did these
people do what the government said they did?
We have to prove what we call elements of the offense.
The statute lays it out, you know, that this person did
knowingly, okay, transport child pornography. So you got to look
at it to see if it's child pornography. You got to look at it to
see if it was transported. You got to look at it to
see if they knowingly did it. Okay? You have to break it down
and look at the elements of the offense.
And just as I would be worried that somebody might say
that is so terrible I'm just going to punish you for showing it
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to me, you can see how these people would be worried that you
just see a bad picture and want to punish somebody. That
wouldn't be fair either, would it? And, again, you see stuff
and it's bad, but you still have to hold it together. You know
what I mean? And make a fair decision about what is the truth,
you know, in this courtroom. And it may be just because
there's a bad picture doesn't mean these people are
automatically guilty. So you can't let your emotion carry you
through that you just want to punish somebody because the
government showed you a bad picture. Do you see both sides of
what I'm trying to say here?
Now, is there anybody here that feels like if I see a bad
picture, somebody is going to be punished, regardless of
whether you've got a case or not?
(No response.)
MS. MOORE: Nobody feels that way. Okay. You're
just being honest about seeing stuff like that would tend to,
you know, be upsetting.
VENIREPERSON QUIRK: (Nods head.)
MS. MOORE: That's natural. What if it was a
homicide case, and you had to see pictures of the deceased?
You know, that's offensive. That's terrible. It's something
you would rather not have to do, but if you're called upon to
be the juror to do it, can you do your job and do it? And make
that fair decision --
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VENIREPERSON QUIRK: (Nods head.)
MS. MOORE: -- without just being carried by the
emotion of a picture,
Okay. Y'a11 are not saying anything, but I see some
people shaking your heads, so if anybody disagrees with that,
will you speak up. Otherwise, I'll assume we're on the same
page.
(No response.)
MS. MOORE: All right. That's the first thing I want
to talk to you about, and I know my time is running out.
THE COURT: You have five minutes.
MS. MOORE: Thank you, Judge.
Here's the second thing I want to talk to you about, and
that's -- I noticed on your questionnaires that some of you
have had jury duty before, and you've actually served on a
criminal case. But a lot of people have not, and so there are
different ideas in the law that are out there that some of you
that have had jury duty may know about and some folks might
not. Have you ever heard of aiding and abetting? Have you
ever heard of that? It's the same thing as if you've been down
to the state courthouse they call it the law of parties, okay?
But it's aiding and abetting.
What does aiding and abetting mean to you, sir? I don't
have my list of everybody's name, but you're right here on the
front row.
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VENIREPERSON FOREHAND: James Forehand.
MS. MOORE: Are you related to Bill Forehand in any
means, by the way?
VENIREPERSON FOREHAND: No.
MS. MOORE: Okay. Mr. Forehand, what does aiding and
abetting mean to you?
VENIREPERSON FOREHAND: Helping out, basically.
MS. MOORE: Helping somebody out. Okay. And I want
to make sure that you understand that concept. Aiding and
abetting, a person can be guilty of a crime -- Well, let me
just tell you what I expect at the end of the trial, after the
jury has heard all the evidence, the Judge reads what's known
as the Court's Charge. In the Court's Charge it tells you what
the law is, and that's the law that you have an oath to follow.
And I'll just tell you what I expect the Judge will tell you
that aiding and abetting is, okay?
The law recognizes, ordinarily, anything a person can do
for himself may be accomplished by that person through the
direction of another person as his or her agent, or by acting
in concert with, or under the direction of, another person or
persons in a joint effort or enterprise.
If a person is acting under the direction of the
defendant, or if the defendant joins another person and
performs acts with the intent to commit a crime, then the law
holds the defendant responsible for the acts and conduct of
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such other persons, just as though the defendant had committed
the acts or engaged in the conduct.
So, in other words, take Bob Adams here. He's a postal
inspector. Say Bob wants to burglarize some mailboxes, all
right? He's going to do the dirty work. He's going to be the
one to actually bust into the mailbox and steal the mail. So
he's obviously guilty. Well, but he needs somebody to be the
lookout for him, right? He needs somebody to go peek and look
around the corner and make sure nobody is coming and holler at
him and let him know, you know, if it looks suspicious. So
that's me. So I'm standing there looking, "Hurry up, Bob.
Hurry up, Bob. Somebody is coming down the hall, Bob."
Now, am I guilty? Of course. I didn't lay my hands on
the mailbox. I never put my hands on the stolen mail, but you
can see that I'm into it up to my eyeballs. I am acting under
his direction. I am aiding and abetting.
Is there anybody here that disagrees with that law? Do
you think that's a good law? You think we ought to have
that law?
Okay. I see y'all shaking your heads. Anybody who thinks
we should not have that law? Bank robber goes into rob the
bank. He's got a get-away driver. The get-away driver never
goes in the bank, never has a gun in his hand, never scares
anybody and says, give me the money, but he's got that engine
revved up, okay. He's aiding and abetting. Is that a good
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thing, or should we just convict the bank robber and let the
get-away driver go home? Okay. So you understand that idea.
Does anybody have any questions of me? It may be your
only chance?
(No response.)
MS. MOORE: No questions for the government. (Prospective Juror No. 23 raises hand.)
MS. MOORE: Yes, ma'am.
VENIREPERSON REYNOLDS: Is the jury allowed to take
notes?
MS. MOORE: That would be a question for the Judge.
It's his courtroom. He'll run that.
THE COURT: Yes, you will be allowed to take notes.
MS. MOORE: Okay. Thank you so much.
THE COURT: Mr. Ball, do you have additional voir
dire?
MR. BALL: Yes, Your Honor. May it please the Court,
members of the government, ladies and gentlemen. I'm allotted
ten minutes, so I'll talk a little fast here, and I appreciate
your honest and candid responses to the questions as I go over
them.
The one thing that I noticed on the questionnaire, before
I talk a little bit about the subject matter, was -- the Judge
talked to you a little bit about the burden of proof is on the
government and they have to prove what they've accused the
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defendants of beyond a reasonable doubt. And I do -- I won't
specify which questionnaire it was, but there was someone or
several people said one of the considerations in the case would
be whether the defendants might have shown their innocence.
And I just want to make a clarification. Does everyone
understand, or is there anyone who does not understand, that we
don't have to prove anything.
THE COURT: Mr. Ball, could you speak into the
microphone just a little better?
MR. BALL: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Thank you.
MR. BALL: Is there anyone who believes that the
defendants have to prove that they're innocent before they're
entitled to a verdict of not guilty? Let me phrase it that
way.
(No response.)
MR. BALL: Because that's not our obligation under
the law. Some people feel that way, and that's fine. Is there
anyone who feels that way?
(No response.)
MR. BALL: I take it without a show of hands, no one
feels that way.
I want to talk to you just a second about the concept of
censorship, and I'm not specifically directing this question at
the beginning to anything involving children or child
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pornography. I'm just talking about censorship in general.
And my question is: On a scale of one to five with one being
strongly against and five being strongly in favor, what best
describes your feelings about censorship in general?
And let me just pick on someone if I can. Mr. Forehand,
I'm just talking about censorship in general, not any
particular content or material. Are you strongly against,
strongly in favor?
VENIREPERSON FOREHAND: It's kind of hard. I mean, I
could be favorable in one area and not in another.
THE COURT: I'm going to have to ask everyone, when
you respond, to stand. It's just so hard to hear all the way up here.
MR. BALL: If you would stand, please sir.
VENIREPERSON FOREHAND: I have a hard time just
saying that generally. There are a lot of different kinds of
censorships. If you want to pin me down, I would put myself
right in the middle.
MR. BALL: All right. Let me direct it to what
adults see on the internet. Let me narrow it down a little
bit.
VENIREPERSON FOREHAND: Well, it depends as to
whether it's public or private, at your house. If it's the
internet and the like, I think there should probably be
censorship there. Anybody who has access to the internet, it's
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there.
MR. BALL: All right. And what about adults,
consenting adults, looking at sexually explicit material? I'm
not talking about involving children, just material that may be
protected by the First Amendment.
VENIREPERSON FOREHAND: I guess I don't believe in
censorship there.
MR. BALL: All right. Would you be strongly against
it in that sort of - -
VENIREPERSON FOREHAND: I'd be morally and personally
against it, but as far as censorship, I would say no.
MR. BALL: Thank you, sir. If I understood your
answer, as far as consenting adults looking at sexually
explicit material on the internet, you were strongly against
censorship, I take it, as long as it didn't involve children.
Was that a fair characterization?
VENIREPERSON FOREHAND: Yes.
MR. BALL: All right. Let me look on the first row.
Who, I guess, disagrees with his response to that? And some of
you do. I mean, some people are offended by any type of
sexually explicit material at all, and that's fine.
(Prospective Juror No. 10 raises hand.)
MR. BALL: Yes, ma'am, you're Ms. Maloney.
VENIREPERSON MALONEY: I would be against. I mean, I
would be for censorship, and just because I've got strong moral
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beliefs, I would rather there not be pornography on the
internet.
MR. BALL: Okay. And you would be in favor -- Do you
have any idea who might be responsible -- if you had the choice
to censor it, would you think it would be the role of the
government or others or do you know?
VENIREPERSON MALONEY: I don't know. I guess whoever
governs over what goes on the internet. I'm not that
knowledgeable of the internet to know who would be in charge of
that. But I have a 16-year old and I would not want him to be
able to get on the internet and see some of the things that are
there.
MR. BALL: All right. And, actually, the law
prohibits children from being able to access that material, or
it's against the law to show them that material.
VENIREPERSON MALONEY: I just don't think it's right.
MR. BALL: Okay. Let me ask you a question that
really directs itself to your -- I think your -- I'm looking at
the wrong number here. Bear with me just a second.
I think there's a question on the questionnaire with
regard to the type of material someone might be asked to see if
they sit as a juror on this case, and I believe you indicated
that with regard to abuse of children and stuff, you have a
tendency, if you hear about it or read about it, to cry.
VENIREPERSON MALONEY: I'm very sensitive to it. I'm
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a schoolteacher and have been around some children that have
had to be removed from their home. I just become very
emotional. It would be very difficult for me to see what I
might be asked to see. I guess I'm being selfish and maybe I
might be haunted by it, by things after it.
MR. BALL: Okay. I mean, as Ms. Moore explained to
you, you might be called upon,if you sit as a juror in this
case, to look at some pretty unpleasant and graphic photographs
or images. And she's correct. A concern we might have is that
a juror might be carried away simply by what they're seeing and
be so overcome emotionally that they want to get somebody, and
whether the rest of the proof is sufficient or not these are
the folks here, we'll just vote them guilty because the
pictures are so horrible. Do you follow what I'm saying?
VENIREPERSON MALONEY: Yes. And since there's been
questions asked, I do think I would be fair in my judgment, but
I think selfishly that it's going to affect me.
MR. BALL: Do you feel like, in spite of the effect,
you can be fair to Mr. and Ms. Reedy?
VENIREPERSON MALONEY: Yes.
MR. BALL: Thank you. I appreciate your candid
answer.
In regard to what she had to say, some folks feel like
that this material, that sexually explicit material on the
internet or elsewhere, should be censored. And I'm not talking
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about child pornography and I'm not talking about children
looking at them. I'm talking about consenting adults. With
regard to the answer Ms. Maloney gave, does anyone on the first
row agree with her answer?
(No response.)
MR. BALL: And thinks the material ought to be
censored?
What about the second row, is there anyone who is strongly
in favor of censoring sexually explicit material on the
internet that's seen by consenting adults that doesn't involve
children?
(Prospective Juror No. 23 raises hand.)
MR. BALL: Yes, ma'am. Is it Reynolds?
VENIREPERSON REYNOLDS: Yes, sir.
MR. BALL: I'd appreciate you standing if you would,
please. What are your feelings about that? Are you strongly
in favor of censoring that type of material?
VENIREPERSON REYNOLDS: Yes, sir. I'm not sure who
should do it, but I just think it's horrible.
MR. BALL: All right.
VENIREPERSON REYNOLDS: Very demeaning.
MR. BALL: Do you feel like if you heard someone was
involved in the adult entertainment business showing sexually
explicit material to consenting adults that did not involve
children, would your opinions about that cause you to rush to
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judgment about whether they were guilty of distributing child
pornography?
VENIREPERSON REYNOLDS: I think I would have to look
at all the facts.
MR. BALL: All right. Thank you, ma'am.
Anyone else on that row?
(No response.)
MR. BALL: How about the third row --
(Prospective Juror No. 31 raises
hand.)
MR. BALL: -- in favor of censorship? Yes, ma'am.
Is it Blum?
VENIREPERSON BLUM: Yes. I feel that it should be
censored, and I don't see the purpose in it and why do we need
it?
MR. BALL: All right. Do you have any notions or
given any thought who might be responsible to do that, to
censor it?
VENIREPERSON BLUM: No.
MR. BALL: What about other types of material that
don't have sexual orientation, controversial reading material,
anything like that, do you have an opinion about --
VENIREPERSON BLUM: Yes. I think the books that our
children are required to read should be taken out of the
schools.
MR. BALL: All right. Thank you. Ms. Blum, thank
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you very much.
Anyone else on that row?
(Prospective Juror No. 35 raises
hand.)
MR. BALL: Yes, ma'am, you're Ms. Walling?
VENIREPERSON WALLING: I agree with the lady.
MR. BALL: Maloney, I believe it was.
VENIREPERSON WALLING: I don't think it should be
there for anyone.
MR. BALL: For anyone, okay. What about other types
of material? Let's take it away from sexually explicit
material. Controversial reading material.
VENIREPERSON WALLING: Personally, I still just -- I
just don't think it should be there.
MR. BALL: All right.
VENIREPERSON WALLING: That's just my own opinion.
MR. BALL: Anyone else on that row?
Thank you for your candid answer.
(No response.)
MR. BALL: How about the fourth row?
(Prospective Juror No. 40 raises hand.)
MR. BALL: Yes, sir, Mr. Stone -- or Mannella, I
believe. Yes, sir, could you please stand.
VENIREPERSON MANNELLA: Who polices the airwaves,
television and radio? The reason I'm asking that is it seems
like consenting adults are only allowed to say certain things
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on the airwaves. They tell you, you can't say that on the
radio. You can't say that on TV. Somebody is policing that.
MR. BALL: What's your opinion about that, that that's
policed?
VENIREPERSON MANNELLA: Well, what I'm saying is
we're sitting here saying should material be censored between
consenting adults. Consenting adults watch television and
listen to the radio, so I don't see why it shouldn't be. I
don't see that that material is really necessary for society.
MR. BALL: All right. Okay. You asked a question
who does that.
VENIREPERSON MANNELLA: Yes, the radio and TV.
MR. BALL: Do you have an opinion on who ought to?
VENIREPERSON MANNELLA: Well, I guess it's the board
that's in charge over the airwaves that's supposed to be public
domain. And so they're not allowed to say these things by some
law or they would be doing it.
MR. BALL: Okay. All right. I appreciate that, sir.
Thank you.
Anyone else on the fourth row?
(Prospective Juror No. 45 raises hand.)
MR. BALL: Yes, ma'am, Ms. Hindman.
VENIREPERSON HINDMAN: I just think it should be
censored. I don't think there should be any, whether it's
reading or pictures or graphics.
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MR. BALL: All right. Let me ask you this: If you
served as a juror and someone was in the type of business of
showing sexually explicit material that didn't involve
children, would you become so angry at their business that you
would find them guilty of something the government --
VENIREPERSON HINDMAN: I don't like adult pornography
nor children pornography.
MR. BALL: All right. And I guess my question is:
If someone was in the adult entertainment or the business of
distributing adult material, was involved in that activity that
did not involve children as a subject, in other words, they
were showing sexually explicit material to consenting adults
who apparently wanted to see it, would your opinion about their
business and the type of activity they're engaged in, you'd be
so angry at what they did that you would have a tendency to
find them guilty of, let's say, a child pornography case even
if the government didn't prove that they were involved in
child pornography?
VENIREPERSON HINDMAN: Honestly, I don't know. I
don't know how to answer that.
MR. BALL: All right. Can you see how I'm concerned
about that?
VENIREPERSON HINDMAN: Sure I do, and, you know, my
emotions toward it, just, you know, reading the questionnaire,
not knowing that's what this was going to be over, was so
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upsetting to me, you know. So I don't know what my reaction
would be emotionally once it's put towards me. And it being
something so important, I don't know what else to tell you.
MR. BALL: All right. Thank you, ma'am.
Anyone else on that row?
(Prospective Juror No. 38 raises hand.)
MR. BALL: Yes, sir, Mr. Weatherly?
VENIREPERSON WEATHERLY: I just don't believe it
ought to be there.
MR. BALL: All right. And, again, we're talking
about sexual oriented material that portrays adults, consenting
adults. You would be in favor of censoring that material.
VENIREPERSON WEATHERLY: Yes, sir.
MR. BALL: All right. Do you have any notion about
who ought to be responsible to do that?
VENIREPERSON WEATHERLY: No, sir.
MR. BALL: Okay. Thank you, sir, for your honest
opinion.
Anyone else on that row?
(No response.)
MR. BALL: I guess the last row.
(Prospective Juror No. 50 raises hand.)
MR. BALL: Okay. There's someone in the back there,
Ms. Lykins?
VENIREPERSON LYKINS: I think there should be
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censorship. It's just too easy to do a search and end up in
one of these sites. I mean, I've innocently gone into one of
these and have been very offended. It's just too easy to get
into them.
MR. BALL: Okay. Well, let me ask you that. I take
it you've made use -- and it's on the questionnaire -- you've
made use of the internet from time to time and you've gone on
there and typed something in wanting to go see something and
you inadvertently ended up somewhere else?
VENIREPERSON LYKINS: Right.
MR. BALL: Something that was out of your control,
went to a place you didn't want to be?
VENIREPERSON LYKINS: Yes.
MR. BALL: Do you have any particular, other than
just surfing the net, do you have any particular knowledge
about how the internet works? Computers?
VENIREPERSON LYKINS: I know a little bit.
MR. BALL: How the information travels and so forth?
ENIREPERSON LYKINS: Uh-huh.
MR. BALL: Have you ever been involved in creating a
web site?
VENIREPERSON LYKINS: I just learned how to, yes. I
don't know how to go about it getting it out there. I've just
created one on my PC.
MR. BALL: All right. Was it difficult to do?
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VENIREPERSON LYKINS: Not too hard at all.
MR. BALL: Can you change it rather quickly, what's
on there?
VENIREPERSON LYKINS: I believe so.
MR. BALL: Okay. Thank you.
All right. Anyone else on the last row with regard to the
censorship question?
(No response.)
MR. BALL: Thank you. Real quickly --
THE COURT: Mr. Ball, your time is up.
MR. BALL: All right. Thank you for your attention.
Mr. Heiskell will have some questions for you, I'm sure. Thank
you.
MR. HEISKELL: May it please the Court, counsel for
the prosecution, and may it please you, too, ladies
and gentlemen. My name is Mike Heiskell. I'm going to talk a
little fast as well. I only have ten minutes to talk to you,
and I want to start out by asking and following up with what
Mr. Ball asked you.
Let me see by a show of hands, how many of you do believe
in censorship by the government?
(Several hands raised.)
MR. HEISKELL: Can I see a show of hands? Can you
raise them a little higher, please. And of those of you who
raised their hands, how many of you strongly believe in
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censorship, for those of you who did raise your hands?
(Several hands raised.)
MR. HEISKELL: Okay. How many believe that the
government should not be engaged in censorship, whether it's
over the internet or any other media?
(Several hands raised.)
MR. HEISKELL: I see one hand in the back. Could you
raise your hands a little higher, please.
UNIDENTIFIED VENIREPERSON: Would you repeat the
question, please.
MR. HEISKELL: How many of you don't believe in
censorship by the government in the media, whether it's the
internet or any other media outlet?
(Several hands raised.)
MR. HEISKELL: Okay. And for those of you who raised
your hands in that regard, would that include sexually explicit
material, adult material? I'm not talking about child
pornography or anything of that nature.
(Hands raised.)
MR. HEISKELL: Okay. I see one hand in the back.
That includes sexually explicit, okay.
Could you raise your hands again? I'm sorry. It's real
quick and I'm trying, I know, to rush through this, but we need
to find out how you feel about this.
(Hands raised.)
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MR. HEISKELL: Okay. Thank you. One of the things
Ms. Moore, the government prosecutor, talked about was the
burden of proof and you should know that the elements that
she's talked about, the knowingly, the promotion, the aiding
and abetting, things of that nature, those elements have to be
proved by the government 100 percent. They've got to show
beyond a reasonable doubt those elements as to each one of
these defendants.
I represent Janice Reedy, and I've got another concern.
She's a female, and part of the questionnaire had to do with
how you felt about females, in particular, who are charged with
a crime such as this. And a lot of you have strong religious
and moral beliefs concerning this topic in general. And then
in particular I want to ask you -- and some of you did comment
on the fact that if a female is charged in this that somehow
that's -- I think one person, Ms. Smith even, in the second
row, said it's a disgrace, or some words to that effect.
How many of you think that just because Ms. Reedy is a
female that that somehow, in and of itself, would cause you to
lean more against her whether -- regardless of the government's
proof. Just because she's charged with this, she's a female.
How many of you feel that way?
(No response.)
MR. HEISKELL: Anyone? (No response.)
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
MR. HEISKELL: Okay. One of things you're going to
have to look at, folks, is not only evidence, but lack of
evidence. The government does have this high burden of proof,
and you're going to have to look at these people, not
collectively but also individually. What role did the people
play in this so-called conspiracy that you've heard about in
this so-called distribution of child pornography?
Now, over this past Thanksgiving holiday, I took my
16-year old son to a couple of movies. He likes to go to
movies and I like to go to movies. And you've heard all the
hue and cry lately about censorship in the movies, to keep
children under the age of 17 or 16 from going to R rated
movies, for instance, and other explicit movies.
And let me ask you in this regard: If you go to a movie
and let's say that that movie contains some objectionable
material, whether it's X rated, NC-17 -- I think that's the new
rating -- or R rating, and if you want to hold someone
responsible for that, do you think that you would look at the
ticket seller as being responsible for what is on the content
of the movie inside? Anyone?
(No response.)
VENIREPERSON QUIRK: Would you repeat that, please.
MR. HEISKELL: Yes, ma'am. You have a ticket seller,
you go up to buy -- you stand in line to buy a ticket to the
movie, and you go inside the movie and all of a sudden you see
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something that you certainly didn't intend to go in and view
and it's very objectionable to you. And it could be sexually
explicit or violent or whatever the case may be. Who would you
hold responsible for that? The ticket seller? Would that be
one of the responsible persons?
VENIREPERSON QUIRK: Is this movie already rated?
MR. HEISKELL: Yes, ma'am, it's already rated.
VENIREPERSON QUIRK: If it's already rated, I would
hold myself responsible.
MR. HEISKELL: Okay.
VENIREPERSON QUIRK: Because if it's rated an R or
NC-17, then I should not be there.
MR. HEISKELL: Do you think the ticket seller should
be responsible at all, whether you go in and you purchase a
ticket from the ticket seller?
VENIREPERSON QUIRK: (Shakes head.)
MR. HEISKELL: Well, let me take it a little bit
further. What about the bookkeeper who may be in a back office
somewhere crunching numbers and looking at the invoices and
finances and making sure that all the ticket sales were
accounted for. Would you think that person would be
responsible for what is on the content of inside the movie
theater? Anyone feel that way?
VENIREPERSON BUCHANAN: When you go see a movie or
when you buy for your children, there are guidelines for
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parents to follow. That's what the ratings are for, and at
this point in time there is no such safeguard on the internet.
It's like she said, you can be there, a child six years old can
be there browsing and ends up with some of this garbage.
So, no, the ticket seller should not be held responsible,
but there should be some kind of guidelines for parents so they
can make a choice. So the ticket seller should not be held
responsible.
MR. HEISKELL: Sure. And I think one of the concerns
that people across the country are looking at is holding the
people who actually produce and direct and distribute these
type of materials to be responsible. Wouldn't you agree with
that?
VENIREPERSON BUCHANAN: You have a choice as to
whether or not you want to see that, because they are rated.
MR. HEISKELL: Correct.
VENIREPERSON BUCHANAN: You can read reviews, you can
find out about it, and the internet does not have that yet. So
I find that question ridiculous, quite frankly.
MR. HEISKELL: Well, do you think that because there
is no "censorship" on the internet that anyone who surfs the
internet and comes across the material would be responsible
themselves? Is that what I'm hearing?
VENIREPERSON BUCHANAN: Unless you're a child, yes.
It's our responsibility as a society to protect our children,
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and we have to have the tools to do that. And at this point
the people who put this information out on the internet haven't
been held responsible because that's the only option we have as
parents, to protect our children.
MR. HEISKELL: Do you agree with what is called in
the business an adult verification service to ensure that
adults get on the internet before they get into the sexually
explicit content?
VENIREPERSON BUCHANAN: Absolutely.
MR. HEISKELL: Are you aware of such services being
provided?
VENIREPERSON BUCHANAN: It's my understanding they're
in their infancy, basically.
MR. HEISKELL: Okay. And you would like to see that,
I take it, getting out of the infant stage and being more
sophisticated and making sure that young people --
VENIREPERSON BUCHANAN: Absolutely. As parents we
have to have the kind of tools to protect our children.
MR. HEISKELL: Okay. Did everyone hear what
Ms. Buchanan said about the adult verification system and its
infant stage and trying to ensure that young people do not get
on the internet to go to these sites she's referring to? Does
everyone agree with that, that should be a system in place?
(No response.)
MR. HEISKELL: Now, I want to follow up on a concern
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I had and, again, to follow up what Mr. Ball stated. If you
have people who are engaged in adult explicit material,
sexually explicit materials, on the internet or elsewhere, and
I know there are objections by many of you to even that, even
though it may be protected under the First Amendment, and
that's fine, because of your morals and ethics and background
that you each individually have.
And I want to ask it this way: Do any of you feel that
because a person or persons are engaged in the adult sexually
explicit material type of business or commerce, that that would
automatically give credence to the fact that they would engage
in child porn? Do you follow what I'm saying? That that would
lead you to believe that, well, if they're in this business
then you would naturally assume that, by myself or anyone else,
that they would also be in the child porn business. Do any of
you feel that way?
(No response.)
MR. HEISKELL: Ms. Reynolds, what do you think about
that? You've answered some questions before.
VENIREPERSON REYNOLDS: I think a person is
responsible for what they view, and I think that we have to be
proven that they were doing the children pornography.
MR. HEISKELL: Okay. So, in other words, just
because they may be in the adult porn, for lack of a better
term.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VENIREPERSON REYNOLDS: Because I don't agree with
what they've chosen to do doesn't mean that I'm going to say
they're guilty of doing something else.
MR. HEISKELL: Thank you. Do all of you agree with
what Ms. Reynolds just stated? Does anyone disagree with that?
(No response.)
MR. HEISKELL: Ms. Hindman, you've had some comments
a little earlier. What do you feel about what Ms. Reynolds
stated?
VENIREPERSON HINDMAN: Well, I don't think you can
say that somebody would cross over that line, you know. But
maybe they would. I don't know. I would hope that they don't,
but there's a line there, and you don't know, unless you know
the morality, whether they cross that line or not. I don't
know.
MR. HEISKELL: Okay. And would you in a case of a
criminal accusation hold the government to that proof to show
that that person knowingly crossed that line?
VENIREPERSON HINDMAN: Right. They would have to
prove that.
MR. HEISKELL: Okay. Thank you, ma'am.
Ms. Hindman and Mr. Delario and maybe a couple of others
have expressed some misgivings and some concern about sitting
on a jury of this type, and it may be because -- and I'm not
looking for a question -- are they close, their religious,
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their moral beliefs, their upbringing, and their background.
And I need to find out from the rest of you do any of you feel
in a similar fashion?
You were asked in general by the Court, I know, but as we
talked about this topic and we repeat ourselves over and over
again about the "line," for instance, that Ms. Hindman talked
about. Do any of you feel that you would have a problem, I
guess for lack of a better term right now, in sitting as a
juror in this case just because of the nature of the accusation
itself? That that would cause you difficulty in having an open
mind when you look at Janice Reedy or Thomas Reedy in
determining whether or not they are guilty of these criminal
charges?
(No response.)
THE COURT: Your time has expired.
MR. HEISKELL: Thank you very much, ladies and
gentlemen. I appreciate it.
THE COURT: In just a minute or two we're going to
take a break and you'll be allowed to exit the courtroom and
stretch your legs and come back in at a certain time. While
you're out, I'm going to have individual conversations with
some of the people that didn't get to talk in front of the
entire group.
As I call your name, beginning with Mr. Otwell, if you'll
please come stand in front of the jury box here in the order
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that I call you so that we can visit with you privately.
Will you be able to move that out of the way? I think
we'll have a larger group than that.
Mr. Otwell, would you come forward and kind of serve as my
marker down here on the far end here. Come on all the way down
here. Mr. Moxon, Ms. Quirk, Mr. Tunnell.
Ms. Maloney, let me ask you a question before we go. I
don't think I need to talk to you. You've indicted that, and
tell me if I'm wrong in any particular whatsoever. I think
you've indicated that the sight and the discussion of some
photos might offend you and might cause you to become
emotional. But I did not hear you say that that would cause
you to be unfair or partial in this case. Is that fair to say?
VENIREPERSON MALONEY: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: And I did not hear you say that your
emotion might carry you away or cause you to be hysterical or
cause you to inflame the jury.
VENIREPERSON MALONEY: No, I don't think I would be
hysterical. I just think I might need counseling after it's over.
THE COURT: Okay. But all of that is so important
here that we provide a fair trial, both to the government and
to the defendants. And I haven't heard you say anything so far
that would make me think that you would not be able to be fair
and impartial in this case. Would you agree with that?
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VENIREPERSON MALONEY: I would agree.
THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Delario, if you would step
forward and take your place at the end of the line. Mr. Rose,
Ms. Havens, Ms. Blum, Mr. Mitchell.
Mr. Ryan, did you say that you had some sort of knowledge
about the case from the newspapers or anything?
VENIREPERSON RYAN: Just what I read in the paper
this morning.
THE COURT: Oh, okay. So you need to come forward as
well. I'm sorry. And if you wouldn't mind standing in front
of Ms. Blum.
Ms. Hindman, Mr. Kopolowicz.
All right. The rest of you may be excused. I doubt we'll
be ready for you before 4:30. Let's say 4:20. I'd hate to
give you too long and hold things up.
Yes, sir, Mr. Fuller.
VENIREPERSON FULLER: I saw that on TV this morning.
THE COURT: All right. If you'll come forward as
well. You'll be at the end of the line.
And, Ms. Crow?
VENIREPERSON CROW: Yes. I read it in the newspaper
this morning.
THE COURT: Okay. If you'll come forward as well.
And, Mr. Shaw, same?
VENIREPERSON SHAW: Yes, sir.
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THE COURT: Okay. Ms. Walling.
VENIREPERSON WALLING: Yes, I raised my hand before.
THE COURT: All right. I missed it. I'm sorry.
Come ahead. Maybe we're going to have everybody on this side
of the bar in a minute.
The rest of you -- Anyone else?
(No response.)
THE COURT: The rest of you are excused until --
Let's try to file back in here starting about 4:20.
(Rest of prospective jurors leave courtroom.)
THE COURT: Let me have counsel at the bench.
(Bench conference with attorneys and Mr. Otwell:)
THE COURT: I had these notes down that you were
concerned about being embarrassed by the photos, and I just
wanted to make sure that that embarrassment, which is
understandable -- I doubt anybody can look at them without
being somewhat embarrassed -- I want to make sure that that
would not influence you on the question of whether the
government has proven its case beyond a reasonable doubt.
VENIREPERSON OTWELL: I don't think it would have
anything to do with it, it would influence me at all.
THE COURT: Okay. It just might be difficult to see.
VENIREPERSON OTWELL: Yes, and I just got this
feeling about if it comes to this point there's some kind of
probable cause or they wouldn't spend millions of taxpayer
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dollars going through this all the time. Again, I'm not -- no
verdict or anything, but just my feelings about it. I'm just
trying to be candid.
THE COURT: Okay. I need to delve into that just a
little bit, because that opens up a different question. What
we have to do here, in order to have a system of justice that
truly is just, we have to assume that the defendants are not guilty.
VENIREPERSON OTWELL: Yes.
THE COURT: We have to give them that presumption of
innocence, and what you just said raises a question in my mind
about whether you would be able -- you are doing that at this
point, about the probable cause point. Now, if after you see
the evidence you begin to have questions in your mind and say,
well, there may be something there, that's okay. But if on
going in you have the idea that because we're all here, because
there's a discussion that there may be photographs, that you
now have written something on the slate against them, then that
would be of concern to me. Can you help me out there?
VENIREPERSON OTWELL: I just feel like, truthfully,
yes, that has happened. But I feel like I'm a true enough
person that I can weigh the facts and balance them out when
they are -- putting that aside when I see facts put out there.
THE COURT: Okay. Let me ask you this: At this
moment do you believe that from the standpoint of a juror the
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defendants are not guilty?
VENIREPERSON OTWELL: (Pause.) Yes, but I still go
back to my very first statement I made. In the back of my
mind, we wouldn't go to all this trouble if there wasn't
something suspect. I mean, there's a lot of things here.
THE COURT: Okay. You may take your break as with the others.
VENIREPERSON OTWELL: Thank you.
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
(Mr. Otwell leaves bench.)
THE COURT: Challenge for cause?
MR. HEISKELL: Yes, we do, Your Honor. We challenge
for cause.
THE COURT: Granted.
(End of bench conference.) THE COURT: Mr. Moxon.
(Bench conference with attorneys and Mr. Moxon:)
THE COURT: Hi. How are you, sir?
VENIREPERSON MOXON: Fine.
THE COURT: On your pretrial publicity, can you tell
me what it is you saw or heard?
VENIREPERSON MOXON: I saw the original newscast,
perhaps a few months ago, perhaps a little bit longer, when the
arrests were made.
THE COURT: Okay. What do you recall from those
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about this?
VENIREPERSON MOXON: Just that it involved child
pornography on the internet and a local couple.
THE COURT: Have you concluded because of that that
these defendants must therefore be guilty?
VENIREPERSON MOXON: Not any conclusions.
THE COURT: What we want to make sure of is that all
the jurors who sit on this case are entering the case giving
the defendants the presumption of innocence. Are you able
to do that?
VENIREPERSON MOXON: I don't see any reason why I
couldn't.
THE COURT: So you at the -- In other words, I could
say at this moment these defendants are not guilty. Could you
agree with that?
VENIREPERSON MOXON: I don't have anything to agree
or disagree with you yet. No, I couldn't make that decision.
THE COURT: Okay. So you would not go into it
thinking, well, they're probably guilty or there's some
evidence against them. You could assume at this point there
is no evidence against them whatsoever.
VENIREPERSON MOXON: Not from me there isn't. I
don't know anything about it.
THE COURT: The reason I'm saying that is legally
speaking there isn't. The only evidence that -- There is no
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evidence at this point and there won't be any until we start
the trial.
VENIREPERSON MOXON: I can't speak legally. I can
only speak from common sense. I don't know anything about it.
THE COURT: But you would -- I'm inferring from what
you're saying that you would be able to agree with me that at
this point there is no legal evidence against them.
VENIREPERSON MOXON: Not from me there isn't,
correct.
THE COURT: And you're not concerned about your
ability to be fair and impartial.
VENIREPERSON MOXON: No.
THE COURT: All right. Now, let's talk about the
migraines. Just because you have migraines from time to time
or you have a little difficulty paying attention, that might
not be any different from a guy who gets sleepy or something
like that. So I need to hear from you whether you believe you
would be able to participate in a week-long trial without great
difficulty.
VENIREPERSON MOXON: My only concern is I never know
when I'm going to get one. I usually have them at least once a
week. Sometimes my medication can stop them. Sometimes it
can't, and when it comes on, if anybody has experienced them,
there's nothing I can do and I'm down.
THE COURT: You cannot function? Are they stress
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related? Do they feel like when you get under stress they're
worse?
VENIREPERSON MOXON: No. There's no prediction as to
when or where they come out of. They are hereditary. My
mother had them.
THE COURT: Okay. Let me say this and you tell me if
you agree or disagree. I believe you can serve on this jury,
and the chances are that you either won't have one or if you
do, we can recess briefly or for part of the day, or we can
seat an alternate. Fair enough?
VENIREPERSON MOXON: Yeah. I just wanted you to be
aware that if one comes on and my medication doesn't work --
Like I had one to start this morning. I took it, I got to eat
at a regular time, which also has an effect on it. But if I
can't stop them if they come on, I have to be able to lay down
in an environment that is quiet and dark. I have no control
over it.
THE COURT: I understand. Thank you very much.
MR. HEISKELL: Judge, can I ask one question about
the medication?
THE COURT: Sure.
MR. HEISKELL: Sir, does the medication itself cause
you any drowsiness or unable to concentrate, the medication
itself?
VENIREPERSON MOXON: For me it doesn't. Sometimes it
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makes me drowsy, but my doctor says it always does and always
will. But I'm used to taking it and he said I'll just get used
to the feeling.
THE COURT: When you take it, do you drive?
VENIREPERSON MOXON: Yes.
THE COURT: And you don't feel like you shouldn't be
driving?
VENIREPERSON MOXON: No.
MS. MOORE: Can I ask what time he needs to eat?
VENIREPERSON MOXON: Just the normal. If you'll give
us a break and walk around.
THE COURT: Well, I need to eat at normal times, too.
VENIREPERSON MOXON: You know, give us a break in the
mid-morning and stretch our legs and get some food.
MR. BALL: Your Honor, would the Court, either now or
later, advise jurors who might have read something not to share
that material with others.
THE COURT: Sure will.
Thank you very much.
(End of bench conference.)
THE COURT: Let me do this. One of the attorneys
here has reminded me, those of you who have read something or
heard something, please do not mention it to any of the other
jurors. We're trying to find out if what you've read or heard
might contaminate you, and we wouldn't want you to say
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something to someone else and tell them something about what
you've read or heard, okay? Thank you.
All right. Ms. Quirk.
(Bench conference with attorneys and Ms. Quirk:)
THE COURT: Hello, ma'am, how are you?
VENIREPERSON QUIRK: Fine, sir.
THE COURT: If you'll step on up here. There you go.
I have a note here that says, and I don't know if this is
right, but I wrote down these words "might blame defendants for
photographs." Was that a -- later on it didn't sound like
necessarily that you would, but what I want to do is ask you if
you believe, having heard all that you've heard, and you've
been asked more questions than a lot of people, you believe you
could be a fair and impartial juror in this case?
VENIREPERSON QUIRK: I believe I could.
THE COURT: Okay. And the shocking nature of the
photographs would not go to make you think that, therefore,
necessarily, these people are guilty of their crimes they're
accused of.
VENIREPERSON QUIRK: I thought of that, those
photographs, and I think I would not dwell on them. That if I
had to see them, you know, so be it, but I would not dwell on
them.
THE COURT: Right. And you will not be required to
dwell on them.
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VENIREPERSON QUIRK: Yeah. So that would not change my opinion of anything.
THE COURT: Okay. One question from either side if
you want.
MR. HEISKELL: No, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: No.
THE COURT: Thank you very much.
(Ms. Quirk leaves bench.)
THE COURT: If you've got a challenge for cause, you
need to speak now, but I don't see it.
MR. HEISKELL: Your Honor, I would submit her as a
challenge for cause for Defendant Reedy in that her initial
reaction of the photographs and the very nature of the case
would indicate that there was a bias or prejudice against the
defendants.
THE COURT: Overruled.
(End of bench conference.)
THE COURT: Mr. Tunnell.
(Bench conference with attorneys and Mr. Tunnell:)
THE COURT: How are you today, sir?
VENIREPERSON TUNNELL: Fine.
THE COURT: Thank you for being here. We appreciate
it. I just have down that you said you had seen something in
the newspaper?
VENIREPERSON TUNNELL: Well, actually, it was
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second-hand information. My wife had said something to me
about it this morning before I came over here.
THE COURT: Like, I wonder if that's why you're going
up there?
VENIREPERSON TUNNELL: Right. If that's the
situation, and she said that's falling under federal
jurisdiction or whatever.
THE COURT: Did she tell you anything, any details?
VENIREPERSON TUNNELL: No. No names or anything.
Just the fact that it was an ongoing case.
THE COURT: I'm inferring from that, that would not
affect your judgment in this case in any way.
VENIREPERSON TUNNELL: I don't believe it would, no,
sir.
THE COURT: All right. Any questions?
MR. HEISKELL: No, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: No, sir.
THE COURT: Thank you very much. You can go ahead
and take a break with the others.
(End of bench conference.)
THE COURT: Ms. Maloney. Is Ms. Maloney here? I'm
sorry. I didn't call her. I'm sorry.
Mr. Delario.
(Bench conference with attorneys:)
MS. MOORE: Judge, you didn't ask Mr. Morgan to come
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in, did you?
THE COURT: No, I didn't. He was interviewing. He
was the one who was interviewing.
MS. MOORE: Right. He's the one that has one car.
THE COURT: Right. I guess I thought we didn't
really need to see him.
(Bench conference with attorneys
and Mr. Delario:)
THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Delario. Good to see you,
sir.
You had indicated that you might have a bias toward
the government in this case. Could you tell us a little bit
more --
VENIREPERSON DELARIO: No, I actually went for the
government.
THE COURT: That's what I meant to say. A bias for
the government.
VENIREPERSON DELARIO: Yeah, meaning their side.
THE COURT: Yes.
VENIREPERSON DELARIO: Well, I just don't believe in child pornography.
THE COURT: Right.
VENIREPERSON DELARIO: I feel it's -- I see adults
being put on trial and possible that way, and I feel that it's
up to the adults of this nation to protect our children, not to
proliferate them and put them on some TV screen or computer
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screen and make money off of them. That's not what children
are here for.
THE COURT: Okay. There's nothing inconsistent about
what you just said and the law.
VENIREPERSON DELARIO: Okay.
THE COURT: That's what the law says. So you're not
inconsistent with the law, and even if you were inconsistent
with the law it wouldn't necessarily mean you couldn't serve as
a juror. What our inquiry is, whether your belief, your strong
belief, that that's what the law ought to be and that people
shouldn't exploit children would necessarily cause you to
believe that these defendants are more likely to be guilty of
this or any other crime because they've been accused of it.
Yes, apparently there will be some photographs brought in that
show there was some sort of pornography. That doesn't answer
all the questions.
VENTREPERSON DELARIO: Sure.
THE COURT: It doesn't answer the question of whether
they were involved, how they were involved, whether they had
knowledge. A lot of different questions would still be open to
it. And you could serve as long as your strong beliefs on the
point don't color your judgment on the other issues like
knowledge and intent.
VENIREPERSON DELARIO: I do have pretty strong
judgments on the other one. I'm not saying I want to go away
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now and never come back. I'm just saying I want to bring that
up to let both sides know where my mind is right now.
THE COURT: And you're right to, sure. Let me make a
statement and you tell me if you think it's correct. James
Delario is able to serve on this jury because, though he has a
strong feeling about pornography, child pornography, he is not
biased or prejudiced against the defendants in this case and
can be a fair and impartial juror.
VENIREPERSON DELARIO: I believe I can. And I again
want to bring up the other side. That's all.
THE COURT: And one could hear what you just said,
and I believe I can, one could hear in that a little bit of
hesitation or uncertainty.
VENIREPERSON DELARIO: Okay.
THE COURT: But that may just be your phraseology
that makes it sound that way. So let me zero in on that
question: Are you sure that you could be fair and impartial?
VENIREPERSON DELARIO: I don't know.
THE COURT: You're not sure.
VENIREPERSON DELARIO: I'm not sure that I can be
impartial.
THE COURT: Okay. I'll allow a question from either
side if you want.
MR. BALL: I don't have any questions, Judge.
MR. HEISKELL: No, Your Honor.
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MS. MOORE: No, Judge.
THE COURT: okay. Thank you very much. We
appreciate it. We'll let you know in a few minutes.
VENIREPERSON DELARIO: Thank you.
(Mr. Delario leaves bench.)
MR. BALL: Judge, we would submit the juror for
challenge based on his original responses and his last
response. He is biased and cannot honestly tell us he would be
fair and impartial.
THE COURT: Challenge is granted.
(End of bench conference.)
THE COURT: Mr. Rose.
(Bench conference with attorneys
and Mr. Rose:)
THE COURT: Hello, sir, how are you? I believe you
saw some pretrial publicity.
VENIREPERSON ROSE: I just read the paper this
morning.
THE COURT: Okay. And what do you recall the article
saying?
VENIREPERSON ROSE: I remember the -- Well, when the
names were called here, I remembered the Reedy name. I
remember they said something about trying to extradite some
people from overseas, but they didn't name the countries nor
how they were trying to do the extradition.
THE COURT: Okay.
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VENTREPERSON ROSE: I remember that the case involved
-- they accused people of making access available -- or
verifying credit, I believe was the way it stated it, verifying
credit for people who were trying to reach this site.
THE COURT: Okay. Could you -- As you understand it,
I'm sure, anything you read in the paper can be true or not
true. So you start off with a problem there. Then, of course,
in this courtroom we'll have to make the decision based on what
we see and hear from the witness chair under oath.
VENIREPERSON ROSE: None of this is evidence.
THE COURT: None of that is evidence. Can you
exclude that from your mind so that you force yourself to focus
on just what you see and hear in the courtroom without any
influence from what you may have read?
VENIREPERSON ROSE: I mean, that was just an article
about the case. I was interested in the article because I knew
I was coming down here. But I understand that only evidence,
that's kept in court.
THE COURT: All right. Question?
MR. HEISKELL: Mr. Rose -- If I may, Your Honor.
Mr. Rose, I may be mistaken. Did you raise your hand or
indicate at the time it was questioned by the Court or one of
the counsel that because of the nature of the case and your
religious beliefs that you would have a hard time with this
type of case?
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VENIREPERSON ROSE: No.
MR. HEISKELL: I'm sorry.
THE COURT: I didn't show that, either.
Ms. Moore.
MS. MOORE: No.
THE COURT: Thank you, sir. Go ahead and take your
break.
(End of bench conference.)
THE COURT: Ms. Havens.
(Bench conference with attorneys
and Ms. Havens:)
THE COURT: Hi. Good to see you. You had indicated
because of some involvement with law enforcement you're not
sure you could be fair and impartial, and we got into it a
minute and I thought, well, I don't want to take up everybody's
time in front of everybody.
Tell me again about the law enforcement. You were 15
years with Arlington PD?
VENIREPERSON HAVENS: I was with Arlington PD, 15
years, yes.
THE COURT: What is it about that experience that
made you a little uncertain about being fair and impartial?
VENIREPERSON HAVENS: Okay. Back at one time I used
to be the polygraph man, give polygraph tests. And I went in
there and witnessed, you know, they say that I don't promise
you this and don't do that. And then I heard the statements of
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a lot of this, sexual abuse and everything. And it's very
disturbing and upsetting. And I'd try to do the best I could
and hope I wouldn't do unfair to a person.
THE COURT: Okay. But you, I take it, are concerned
about whether that experience might color your judgment here.
Is that fair to say, or do you think it would not?
VENIREPERSON HAVENS: That's fair to say. It could.
I'm not saying it wouldn't, because it could.
THE COURT: Okay. Questions?
MS. MOORE: Yes. Ma'am, you know when you were
working for Arlington PD and involved in those interviews and
polygraphs and whatnot, I guess you took some statements from
some victims, too, that suffered from sexual abuse?
VENIREPERSON HAVENS: No, I didn't take the
statements. The detectives did that, and then they would bring
them out to the office.
MS. MOORE: And you would notarize.
VENIREPERSON HAVENS: No, I just witnessed. The
polygraph person would read off the statement of what the man
had testified to and what he had done and so forth.
MS. MOORE: Okay.
VENIREPERSON HAVENS: And then I listened to what he
testified to, and when there was a typing error that person had
to go over there and initial it and then the polygraph guy.
And the detectives did everything else. I just witnessed them.
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MS. MOORE: Okay. Now that I've got that straight,
did you ever see Thomas Reedy over there, one of the
defendants, Thomas Reedy?
VENIREPERSON HAVENS: He looks like a person that
could come down there.
MS. MOORE: Okay. If I told you he wasn't out there
would you accept my word?
VENIREPERSON HAVENS: Yes, ma'am, I would.
MS. MOORE: Did you ever see his wife, Janice Reedy?
VENIREPERSON HAVENS: No.
MS. MOORE: If I told you neither one of them had
ever been out there and had been accused of that, okay, could
you put whatever happened at the Arlington PD, knowing about
these kind of things, could you put that out of your mind and
make a decision on this case based on the evidence in this
case, what you would hear from the witness stand only?
VENIREPERSON HAVENS: I would try, yes.
MS. MOORE: That's super. But you say "I'll try.''
What we want to know is can you do it?
VENIREPERSON HAMENS: I feel like I can, yes. I feel
like I can.
MS. MOORE: But you leave us with a little bit of
doubt when you say that. We're trying to nail you down.
VENIREPERSON HAVENS: But I'm saying that I'm nervous
and I'd hate to say that I will do it and then get up there and
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then fall apart.
MS. MOORE: Okay. Do you think you might get up
there and fall apart?
VENIREPERSON HAVENS: I hope not, because I've seen a
a lot and heard a lot at the police department. I'm not going
to say that I won't, but I don't want to make a fool of myself
and get up there and do it, too, you know. So I'm going to say
that, yes, I will give fair judgment. I feel like I can.
MS. MOORE: Okay. All right.
THE COURT: Thank you very much. You can take your
break with the others.
(Ms. Havens leaves bench.)
MR. BALL: Judge, we would submit the juror for
challenge based on her original responses about being fair and
her experiences. I don't know they were directed, necessarily,
to Mr. Reedy, but the emotional impact and only until the very
end did she say, with some hesitation, she would try and she
would be fair. So we would submit she is biased.
THE COURT: I think I'll grant your challenge.
MR. BALL: All right.
(End of bench conference.)
THE COURT; Okay. Ms. Blum. Oh, your name, sir?
VENIREPERSON RYAN: Ryan.
(Bench conference with attorneys and Mr. Ryan:)
THE COURT: I'm sorry. Your name again, sir?
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VENIREPERSON RYAN: Ed Ryan.
THE COURT: Ryan, yes, sir. You had seen some
pretrial publicity, hadn't you?
VENIREPERSON RYAN: Yes, sir, this morning in the
paper.
THE COURT: What do you recall about what you read?
VENIREPERSON RYAN: I got called for jury duty
Saturday morning, and found when I read the paper this morning
I realized that, you know, that would probably be the case or
somewhat. I read the case and didn't pay much attention to it,
though.
THE COURT: Okay. Tell me what you do recall about
what you read.
VENIREPERSON RYAN: I remember the names, the Reedys
were the names. I remember the names as Reedys, something to
do with child pornography pictures that were sent on the
internet. Other defendants in the case were people from
overseas and so forth.
THE COURT: Okay. Anything about what you read here
that you couldn't ignore?
VENIREPERSON RYAN: Pretty much almost forgot it.
THE COURT: Okay. Because what we'll be asking you
to do, of course, is to make your decision, if you serve on
this jury, based on what you see and hear from the witness
chair, see and hear exhibits, and that's all. Could you do
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that?
VENIREPERSON RYAN: Yes.
THE COURT: You could ignore what you read in the paper today --
VENIREPERSON RYAN: Yes, sir, I could.
THE COURT: -- and it would not play any role at all
in your thinking as to the appropriate verdict.
VENIREPERSON RYAN: No, it would not.
THE COURT: Okay. Questions?
MR. BALL: No, sir.
THE COURT: Thank you very much.
(End of bench conference.)
THE COURT: Ms. Blum.
(Bench conference with attorneys
and Ms. Blum:)
THE COURT: Hi, good to see you. Thank you for being
here. Your responses earlier, in your responses you said that
you were worried about having a bias for the government
and perhaps against the defendant.
VENIREPERSON BLUM: Right.
THE COURT: And you've had a chance to think about
that. The instruction of the Court would be that you listen to
the evidence, that you consider only the evidence that you hear
from the witness chair and see in exhibits and make your
decision based solely on that without bias, prejudice, or
anything. Could you follow that instruction?
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VENIREPERSON BLUM: It would be difficult.
THE COURT: It would be difficult for you?
VENIREPERSON BLUM: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay. You also indicated that you were
opposed to pornography, as many of us are.
VENIREPERSON BLUM: Uh-huh.
THE COURT: And I guess our concern would have to be
that while these persons are accused, they are not -- there's
no evidence at this point against them. So we have to give
them the presumption of innocence. Could you give them that
presumption of innocence?
VENIREPERSON BLUM: Well, it's just hard to say. I
listen to James Dobbs, and he was on the pornography counsel
and he talked about, you know, what it did to his life, how
awful it was. And it just disturbs me to even have to look at
the pictures.
THE COURT: Okay. Thank you very much.
VENIREPERSON BLUM: Thank you.
(Ms. Blum leaves bench.)
MR. BALL: We would challenge the juror.
THE COURT: Granted.
MR. BALL: Thank you.
(End of bench conference.)
THE COURT: Ms. Walling. Yes, ma'am. Come forward.
(Bench conference with attorneys and Ms. Walling:)
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
THE COURT: Hi. Thank you for being here today. You
have indicated in your answers that you're opposed to
pornography, and that's fine. That doesn't mean you can't
serve here. We're concerned about whether that opposition
would color your ability to decide whether the government has
proven its case beyond a reasonable doubt from the evidence,
only from the evidence. Tell me what you think about that.
VENIREPERSON WALLING: Well, I have heard some about
this case on the media, TV. And I've read some about it, and
my husband and I have kind of discussed it. And I have a
16-year old at home who likes to be on the internet a lot, and
I think I already have a preconceived idea of how I would -- I
don't think I would be fair.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
(Ms. Walling leaves bench.)
MR. BALL: Judge, we would submit the juror for
challenge.
THE COURT: Granted.
(End of bench conference.)
THE COURT: Ms. Crow.
(Bench conference with attorneys
and Ms. Crow:)
THE COURT: Hi, Ms. Crow, how are you? Good to see
you. Thank you for being here.
You saw some or read some pretrial publicity. Can you
tell us what, in detail, what you recall about what you read or
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heard.
VENIREPERSON CROW: I think what I heard, and I'm not
too sure where I heard it, just in passing. And I just knew
that this case was coming up and it was pornography related to
children and on the internet and that's all I remembered until
I read the newspaper article earlier this morning. And that
article, it just mentioned, I think, a female that -- At first
I thought that it was -- by reading it that they weren't fully
aware -- they wasn't as aware of what was going on as the other
parties.
But then by observing her in the courtroom I feel like by
watching their relationship while standing there that their
relationship seems to be a very good relationship as far as
them touching each other and stroking each other, that maybe
it's not the awareness but that the female party just wasn't as
deeply involved on the same level as the others.
So that was kind of my opinion by reading the article.
But it just -- But I thought in the article it mentioned other
parties from other countries, a couple other parties from other
countries, and basically that's it.
THE COURT: Okay. Anything about your observations
or what you've seen or heard outside the courtroom that would
prevent you from being fair and impartial in this case?
VENIREPERSON CROW: I think that after watching their
relationship, I would have to -- depends on what they were
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trying to state about the female person, whether it was a
deeper -- how she was involved and implicated in it.
THE COURT: Of course, you understand they're both on
trial.
VENIREPERSON CROW: Yes, I do. But I guess it's
probably more her than, you know, it just seems that by
observing that she is totally, was totally aware, or she
wouldn't feel so warmly toward her husband at this point.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
(Ms. Crow leaves bench.)
MR. HEISKELL: We would submit her for challenge.
THE COURT: Granted.
(End of bench conference.)
THE COURT: Mr. Mitchell.
(Bench conference with attorneys:)
MS. MOORE: This is the guy that works for the post
office.
(Bench conference with attorneys
and Mr. Mitchell:)
THE COURT: Hi. Mr. Mead is the one that you know as
an acquaintance.
VENIREPERSON MITCHELL: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: And I need to follow up on the question I
asked you about your relationship with him and whether you
could approach the case fairly, and let me zero in on that a
little bit. When he takes the stand, if he does, and I guess
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he will be taking the stand -- No?
MS. MOORE: He's probably not.
THE COURT: He'll probably not. He'll just be at the
counsel table. He won't be taking the stand, so what we'll ask
you to do is listen to what is said on the stand, look at the
exhibits, make up your mind solely based on what you see and
hear without any reference to or thought of what he would think
of you if you were to make your mind up one way or the other.
VENIREPERSON MITCHELL: one of the other witnesses,
Dane Ritcheson. I know him, also.
THE COURT: You're acquainted with him as well?
VENIREPERSON MITCHELL: Also, Inspector Adams. I
didn't know his name, but I see him all the time.
THE COURT: Okay. So now we have three there. Could
you do as I just mentioned, make up your mind without any
concern whatsoever about what they would think? For instance,
if you voted with the jury to return a not guilty verdict,
could you do that without being worried about what they would
think?
VENIREPERSON MITCHELL: I don't think I could,
because I like all of them a lot.
THE COURT: Okay. And you would want them to like
you; is that right?
VENIREPERSON MITCHELL: I wouldn't want to have any
animosity toward me.
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THE COURT: Okay. Questions?
MS. MOORE: No.
THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
You didn't get to take a break. If you want to run take a
break, you can.
VENIREPERSON MITCHELL: Thank you.
(Mr. Mitchell leaves bench.)
MR. BALL: Judge, we would submit the juror for
challenge.
THE COURT: Challenge granted.
(End of bench conference.)
THE COURT: Ms. Hindman.
(Bench conference with attorneys
and Ms. Hindman:)
THE COURT: Hi, how are you? Thank you for being
here. We appreciate it.
I have in my notes that you're uncertain about your
ability to be fair and impartial as to Mr. Mead. Is that
right, or did I get that down wrong?
VENIREPERSON HINDMAN: I didn't specify anybody.
THE COURT: Okay. Good. I miswrote that. But you
did express some rather strong views about pornography,
especially child pornography. As I tried to make it clear,
that doesn't mean you can't serve just because you're opposed
to pornography or child pornography or favor censorship, unless
those beliefs would bleed over into the question of whether
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these people had been proven beyond a reasonable doubt to be guilty.
VENIREPERSON HINDMAN: Yes.
THE COURT: Tell me where you are on that.
VENIREPERSON HINDMAN: Well, when you asked the
question would I want me on my jury, it kind of scared me a
little bit because I don't know whether I would or not.
THE COURT: Okay. Not sure you would want someone
like yourself on your jury. Okay. Can you elaborate on that?
VENIREPERSON HINDMAN: I'm so emotional about this.
THE COURT: That's okay.
VENIREPERSON HINDMAN: I don't know whether it would
-- my reasoning ability would take over my emotional.
THE COURT: That's a very good question. That's
exactly the question, and only you can answer that for us.
VENIREPERSON HINDMAN: I've never been in that
situation, so I don't know whether -- You know, I can't say.
You know, I would like to be able to tell you I would be fair
and impartial, but I can't tell you. I can't because I don't
know.
THE COURT: Okay. Questions?
MS. MOORE: No.
THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. If you'd like to take
a quick break before you take your seat, that's fine.
(Ms. Hindman leaves bench.)
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
MR. BALL: Judge, we would challenge the juror. She
was fairly emotional up here.
THE COURT: Granted.
MR. BALL: Thank you.
(End of bench conference.)
THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Kopolowicz.
(Bench conference with attorneys
and Mr. Kopolowicz:)
THE COURT: Good to see, sir. All right. You can't
look at those photographs, and we're not going to force you to
focus on them, though as exhibits are entered into evidence we
will have to ask you to at least briefly look at them so you
can see and make a judgment.
VENIREPERSON KOPOLOWICZ: I thought about that. I
think I can do that.
THE COURT: Okay.
VENIREPERSON KOPOLOWICZ: I can look at them briefly
and know -- whatever you're talking about I can look at real
quick and probably get an idea. It's not that I can't at all,
but I don't want -- I guess I pictured it being up there and
you got to stare at it and be pointing at it and all that stuff
and I just don't feel I could do that.
THE COURT: No, I don't think that's going to be
required.
VENIREPERSON KOPOLOWICZ: Okay.
THE COURT: Having gotten that behind us, let me ask
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you the ultimate question and that is: Could you serve on this
jury fairly and impartially?
VENIREPERSON KOPOLOWICZ: I believe so.
THE COURT: Okay. Now, when you say you "believe
so," sometimes that's a way of indicating a little bit of
uncertainty.
VENIREPERSON KOPOLOWICZ: I don't know. You never
know. I mean, I believe I can, yes. I don't know if that's
the same answer, I guess.
THE COURT: Well, sometimes "I believe I can"
means I'm --
VENIREPERSON KOPOLOWICZ: I don't have anything --
THE COURT: -- reasonably certain that I can and
sometimes it means I'm not so sure.
VENIREPERSON KOPOLOWICZ: I don't have anything in my
head that tells me I couldn't. How's that?
THE COURT: That's better. That gives me a little
more to go on.
VENIREPERSON KOPOLOWICZ: I don't see a problem, I
guess.
THE COURT: Okay.
VENIREPERSON KOPOLOWICZ: It was just the only
problem I really did have was, you know, staring at pictures
and stuff for any kind of length of time.
THE COURT: Okay. Follow-up.
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MS. MOORE: No.
MR. BALL: No.
THE COURT: Thank you, sir. We appreciate it.
(End of bench conference.)
THE COURT: Mr. Shaw.
(Bench conference with attorneys and Mr. Shaw:)
THE COURT: How are you today, sir?
VENIREPERSON SHAW: Fine. Thank you.
THE COURT: Thank you for being here. We appreciate
it.
Mr. Shaw, you said that you had seen or heard some
pretrial publicity.
VENIREPERSON SHAW: Yes, sir. I read the article
this morning.
THE COURT: Okay. Tell me what you remember from that article.
VENIREPERSON SHAW: Okay. I have senior moments, but
I'll try.
THE COURT: I understand.
VENIREPERSON SHAW: It was about a case involving the
internet and displaying their child pornography. They said
something about these folks were maybe collecting money to - -
If you want to watch it you come through me and I give you
access to it somehow. Something similar to that.
THE COURT: Anything else you remember?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VENIREPERSON SHAW: No. I just knew I was coming
down for federal jury and I said, uh-oh, maybe this is it.
THE COURT: Well, it is. What we will have to ask
you to do is to, at the conclusion of the case if you serve as
a juror, make your decision based solely and completely based
on what you see and hear in here, and all of what you read in
the newspaper would have to be put completely out of your mind.
VENIREPERSON SHAW: It's probably gone already.
THE COURT: Halfway gone already? Some people can do
that and some people can't. Can you do that?
VENIREPERSON SHAW: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Follow-up?
MR. BALL: No, sir.
MS. MOORE: No, sir.
THE COURT: Thank you, sir. Go back to your place.
(End of bench conference.)
THE COURT: And, Mr. Fuller.
(Bench conference with attorneys and Mr. Fuller:)
THE COURT: How are you, sir? Good to see you.
Thank you for being here.
You saw something in the press today or recently?
VENIREPERSON FULLER: Yeah, this morning.
THE COURT: Star-Telegram?
VENIREPERSON FULLER: No, 4 or 5, one.
THE COURT: Channel 4?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VENIREPERSON FULLER: And I happened to mention it to
a business acquaintance.
THE COURT: Okay.
VENIREPERSON FULLER: And, anyway, he said, well,
those are my neighbors. And, anyway, he revealed something
about them having a studio or something set up in their house.
THE COURT: I guess I don't quite understand. Could
you go through that again. You mentioned it to a business
acquaintance.
VENIREPERSON FULLER: Yeah, on a telephone
conversation. He said those were his neighbors.
THE COURT: Oh, his neighbors.
VENIREPERSON FULLER: And said they were the fourth
house to the north of him.
THE COURT: Okay. What else did he tell you?
VENIREPERSON FULLER: He just said something about he
heard they had a studio and everything set up in their house.
Also, the female defendant has got an eerie resemblance to
my first wife.
(Laughter.)
VENIREPERSON FULLER: I didn't want to embarrass her.
THE COURT: Enough said. Thank you very much.
(Mr. Fuller leaves bench.)
MR. HEISKELL: I challenge Mr. Fuller, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Granted.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
MS. MOORE: What's our strike zone?
THE COURT: That's what I'm wondering. Just a
second.
One through 36 is the regular strike zone, and then the
alternate strike zone will be 37 through 47.
MS. MOORE: Thirty-seven through 47?
THE COURT: Thirty-seven through 47. See if that
isn't the case. Each of you get two --
MR. BALL: So 36 is the cutoff?
MS. MOORE: I get two strikes?
THE COURT: Yes.
MS. MOORE: I just want to make sure.
MR. BALL: We get two strikes on the alternates and
we get 12 on the regular and they get seven.
MS. MOORE: Right. I just want to make sure.
THE COURT: No objection to any of that?
MS. MOORE: None at all.
THE COURT: You found the right strike zone?
MR. BALL: Yes, sir, I believe so.
THE COURT: Now. Let me ask you off the record.
(End of bench conferences; off-record discussion.)
THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, I moved slower than
I intended on the individual examination, so I brought you back
in here a little early. I think it's going to take -- I've
given them 15 minutes to make their selections, so you'll be
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sitting there at least 15 minutes.
So I'm going to give you the option, if you would like to
get up and go back outside and come back in, you may. But you
don't have to go back outside. You can just stay right there
and remain fairly quiet and wait for us. But if you need to
get back up, you can. But please be back in here by 10 before
the hour. Make it five before the hour.
Mr. Otwell, we've excused you. You
may go on.
Is Mr. Delario present? We've excused you. You may go
on. We'll ask you to call the Code-A-Phone after 3:00 p.m.
beginning tomorrow.
VENIREPERSON DELARIO: Thank you.
THE COURT: Ms. Havens, we've excused you as well.
You may go on. If you need a certificate from the clerk, it's
on the third floor. If not, just call the Code-A-Phone after
3:00 p.m. tomorrow.
Ms. Blum, you've been excused and you may go. If you need
a certificate you can get that on the third floor from the
clerk's office, and we'll ask you to call the Code-A-Phone
after 3:00 p.m. tomorrow. Thank you.
VENIREPERSON BLUM: Thank you.
THE COURT: Ms. Walling, we've excused you as well.
Thank you. You heard what I said to the others. Thank you.
Ms. Crow, we've excused you as
well.
Mr. Mitchell, Ms. Hindman, and that's all.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
(Court in recess, 4:39 p.m. until
5:06 p.m.)
THE COURT: The attorneys have been provided with the
list of strikes. Do I hear an objection from the government?
MS. MOORE: No objections, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Do I hear objection from either of the
defendants?
MR. BALL: None, Your Honor.
MR. HEISKELL: None, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. The following persons have
been chosen to serve on the jury. As I call your name out if
you'll please step forward. The first six persons whose names
are called will sit in the first six chairs on the bottom row,
the next six on the top row, and then we have four alternates.
The first two will sit on the bottom row and the last two on
the top row.
And we just about cleaned out the first row. Unusual.
And could you tell me how to say your name one more time.
Russell --
VENIREPERSON LABRUYERE: LA-BRIAR.
THE COURT: You're number one. Mr. Rippee, Mr. Wood,
Mr. Forehand, Mr. Moxon, Ms. Quirk.
Ms. Quirk is the last juror on the front. Mr. Tunnell is
the first juror on the second row. Mr. Robertson,
Ms. Clements, Mr. McGuire, Mr. Morgan, Mr. Pool. And our
alternates, the first two who will sit on the bottom row are
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Mr. Weatherly, Mr. Mannella. And on the top row will be
Ms. Sherman and Ms. Cook.
Let me see counsel right quick, please. No record
necessary yet.
(Off-record discussion at bench.)
THE COURT: Mr. Morgan, I apologize. We just forgot
about your situation until I saw your expression when you got
chosen. I'm going to excuse you. All of us have agreed you're
excused.
VENIREPERSON MORGAN: Thank you.
THE COURT: And that will put in your place as our
first alternate Mr. Weatherly. Mr. Weatherly, if you'll step
around and take that place.
Mr. Morgan, you'll still need to call the Code-A-Phone
starting tomorrow to make sure that you're not called for
another jury that you might be able to serve, if it's a shorter
time of service you might be able to serve on. We appreciate
your being here.
VENIREPERSON MORGAN: Thank you very much.
THE COURT: All right. Are the parties -- Let me
call the names and make sure we've seated everyone correctly.
As I call your name, please raise your hand. Mr. Labruyere,
Mr. Rippee, Mr. Wood, Mr. Forehand, Mr. Moxon, Ms. Quirk,
Mr. Tunnell, Mr. Robertson, Ms. Clements, Mr. McGuire, and
instead of Mr. Morgan we have Mr. Weatherly.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
And Ms. Barrett. I'm sorry. I have Clarie Barrett. I
think I miscalled one. You are, sir?
VENIREPERSON POOL: Mr. Pool.
THE COURT: I misspoke. We have not seated a correct
juror. Mr. Pool, you'll be glad to know you're not to serve on
this jury. I meant to call Clarie Barrett.
Well, I've been doing this for nine years and that's the
first time I've ever seated the wrong juror, so I'm glad I kept
on doing this, because we would not have seated the correct
juror.
All right. And the alternates other than Mr. Weatherly,
then, would be Vincent Mannella. Mr. Mannella, you can move
over a chair; keep you a little bit closer to us.
And Ms. Sherman and Ms. Cook.
All right. Are the parties satisfied that the correct
jurors have now been seated?
MS. MOORE: The government is, Your Honor, and would
like for the record to reflect that Mr. Morgan was excused by
agreement of both parties.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. BALL: That is correct, and we concur that the
correct jury has been seated.
MR. HEISKELL: That's correct, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
Thank you for your service. We
appreciate it. If you
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need a certificate, the clerk will -- well, the clerk's office
is closed. You should have already gotten the certificate.
Anybody who did not, check with Judy here.
You will need to call the Code-A-Phone starting tomorrow
at 3:00 p.m. I doubt you'll be required to serve there's such
a short time left, but could be a jury needed before the week
is out. Do any of you have any questions?
(No response.)
THE COURT: Again, thank you for your service.
You're excused at this time.
(Rest of jury panel leaves, 5:15
p.m.)
THE COURT: Each of you have found a notebook, I'm
sure. And that is your notebook. You can write your name in
it. It would probably be a good idea to write your name in it
because you can take notes. It's your notebook. You can mark
up the papers in it as you need to for any purpose, or even to
doodle if you want to do that.
The first thing I need to do, though, is to ask you to
take the final oath that you will take as a juror in this case.
I won't make you stand, but please raise your right hand and
take this oath.
(The jury is sworn.)
THE COURT: And all have said "I do." Thank you.
The chair that you're sitting in now is your chair
throughout the course of the trial. Jim Bowen is usually our
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courtroom security officer. Sometimes Charlie Simmons, a new guy,
will be helping. But usually it will be Jim, and I've
often said he's as easy as an old shoe. So you'll get along
well with him.
You will notice that there is a vent that supplies air
right on you. And it's an old system and we don't know from
day to day whether it's going to be hot air or cold air that
comes out of it. So I would advise you to bring a jacket,
adopt the layered look, whatever is appropriate for you and the
way you dress. But you might need to put on a jacket if it's
cold air and take it off if it's hot air.
We will ask you not to discuss the case with anyone,
including yourselves, beginning right now. When you get home
tonight, they're going to ask you about the case. If they read
something in the newspaper about it, they may be more inclined
than normal to ask about the case, and you will have to say I
cannot discuss the case with you or anyone else.
Please do not watch the news on television, or at least
don't watch anything that comes on and you think it might
relate to this case. Please turn it off immediately. Do not
read the newspaper for this case. If you want to read about
Florida or what's happening in the Supreme Court, fine. But if
you see anything that you think might relate to this case,
please avert your eyes and do not read it. We want to make
sure, and I know you want to make sure, that your decision in
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this case is not influenced by what you read or hear outside
the courtroom. That would be a travesty. We've got to decide
the case based on what you hear here and not some hearsay
account by a reporter or by a commentator who may very well not
know what he's talking about at all. Probably have had that
happen to you before.
All right. Check your notebooks, please. Judy thought we
were going to have just two alternates and we've got four. See
if your books have the preliminary jury instructions in a
criminal case. I'll be reading those to you tomorrow morning.
Anybody who does not have about five pages of preliminary jury
instructions in a criminal case? You have those?
Also, you have a parking permit. We have arranged with
the church across the street, east. They've been kind enough
to allow our jurors to park in their parking lot, which is just
south of the courthouse. When you go up to the jury room in a
minute, look out the window. You'll see the parking lot just
out the window so you can get your bearings. Please park
against the chainlink fence on the west end, against the
chainlink fence on the west end. And put that little permit on
your dash so they won't tow you away. That way you don't have
to worry about paying, and it's much more convenient than
looking around for a parking place for a half hour. So, once
again, use the church parking lot up against the chainlink
fence on the west end. Look out the window when you get
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upstairs to get your bearings. And put the piece of paper on
your dash each day.
When you get through that door, there's a flight of
stairs. Does anyone have trouble climbing stairs?
(No response.)
THE COURT: All right. In the jury room there's some
small accommodations there. We've converted a closet into
a coffee room. We do have a coffee maker. It's a little bit
cranky, but it will make a good cup of coffee if you're patient
with it. Follow the instructions. Please clean up after
yourselves afterwards. We do have a little refrigerator in
there if you want to bring something for a snack or for lunch.
And I believe there's some hot tea. Some of you can't drink
coffee, there's some hot tea or at least the tea bags.
In your juror notebooks you also have a listing of places
nearby to take a meal, and you might want to look at that
before lunch tomorrow. And, let's see -- Yes. There's a copy
of the indictment in your notebook as well. That may or may
not be read in its entirety here. I'll talk to the attorneys
about that, but you'll need to have it, at any rate. That
tells you what the accusation is. You can read that at any
time you want to. You can't discuss it. You can't talk to
each other at all about the case until we've completed the
testimony and you've been sent back for deliberations.
Okay. Any questions so far? Yes, ma'am.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
JUROR BARRETT: I didn't hear the time we needed to be here in the morning.
THE COURT: That's because I haven't said, but that
is next. 9:00 o'clock. That should give you time to get your
kids off, take care of early business matters and get here. If
you'll try to get here closer to 8:45 than to 9:00, that will
help us in case you have traffic problems or something.
Now, let me say this. We'll start a case and everybody
will be certain that we're going to get started on time, and
I'll be the most certain of all. And we'll get here and
something is going on back there or something is going on out
here that we didn't anticipate, and you may be waiting. We try
to avoid that, but sometimes it's just not avoidable. So when
you come in tomorrow be ready to go at 9:00, but there could be
a delay. I hope not. I don't expect it at this point.
Yes, sir.
JUROR TUNNELL: Do we come right in here?
THE COURT: No, sir. When we take you out, we're
going to take you up that stairs. That will put you on the
third floor so when you come in tomorrow you'll go to the jury
room on the third floor. So just press 3 on the elevator and
come up to the third floor. Assemble there. Jim will put you
in the right order and march you down in time for the opening
at 9:00 o'clock. Good question. Other questions?
(No response.)
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
THE COURT: All right. We appreciate your
willingness to serve, and we're going to try to expedite this
case and have it ready for your decision, or at least for your
deliberation before the week is out. I believe we'll do that.
Jim, have I forgotten anything?
Okay.
Yes, ma'am.
JUROR SHERMAN: How long a day usually is it? Until
5;00 o'clock? 5:30?
THE COURT: We'll go till 5:00 every day and maybe a
little longer, because I'm trying to get this case in and we'll
have to start a little earlier than I usually do and go a
little later. If we have a witness that's on at 5:00 o'clock
and we want to finish that witness, it could be until 6:00. I
hope not. I don't like to go home at 6:00 either, but
sometimes we have to.
All right. And if you have a problem, if you have a
commitment that you must make, please let us know about it as
early as you can so we can try to work with you and work around
it.
All right. Jim, thank you.
(Jury out, 5:25 p.m.)
THE COURT: All right. Any matters that we need to
take up before we commence in the morning at 9:00?
MS. MOORE; Not from the government, Your Honor.
THE COURT; On the indictment, it's been my practice
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when we have a very long indictment, rather than read the whole
thing that we have an agreement that we'll take the plea before
the jury but not read the entire indictment to the jury and
allow the jury to read it when they can and allow you, of
course, in opening and closing to address what you need to
address.
That's my suggestion. It's really up to the defendants.
MR. HEISKELL: You're saying the government will
summarize it, Judge, or not read it at all?
THE COURT: Not read it at all.
MR. HEISKELL: I don't see any need to.
MR. BALL: That's fine, Judge.
THE COURT: Is that okay with the government as well?
(Government counsel confer.)
MS. MOORE: Ron wants to read it.
THE COURT: I'll take it out of your opening
statement time.
MS. MOORE: You will? No, I don't want it read.
THE COURT: Okay. Here we go. We'll see you at 9:00
in the morning.
(Proceedings concluded for the day, 5:26 p.m.)
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL II, 120
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS
FORT WORTH DIVISION
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
. CRIMINAL ACTION NO.
. 4:00-CR-054-Y
VS.
.
.
THOMAS REEDY (1)
. November 28, 2000
JANICE REEDY (2)
. 9:06 a.m.
LANDSLIDE, INC. (3)
.
. . . .
. . .
VOLUME II
TRIAL TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
BEFORE THE HONORABLE TERRY R. MEANS
UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE, and a jury.
APPEARANCES:
For the United States:
Ms. Terri M. Moore
Mr. Ronald C.H. Eddins
Assistant United States Attorneys
801 Cherry Street, Suite 1700
Fort Worth, Texas 76102
(817) 252-5200
For Defendant Thomas
Mr. Wes Ball
Reedy and Landslide, Inc.: Ball & Hase
4025 Woodland Park Boulevard
Suite 100
Arlington, Texas 76013
(817) 860-5000
For Defendant Janice Reedy: Mr.
Michael P. Heiskell
Johnson, Vaughn & Heiskell
600 Texas Street, Second Floor
Fort Worth, Texas 76102-4612
(817) 877-5321
Official Court Reporter:
Eileen M. Brewer
501 West Tenth Street
Fort Worth, Texas 76102-3637
(817) 334-0104
Proceedings recorded by mechanical stenography, transcript produced by computer-aided transcription.
VOL II, 121
I N D E X
GOVERNMENT'S DIRECT EVIDENCE
Voir
Direct Cross Redirect Recross Dire Court
WITNESSES:
Steven Nelson 143
164
166
170
199
205
207
209 264
322
Mike Marshall 344 354
383 390
GOVERNMENT'S DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE
No.
Description
Offered Admitted
SN-A-1 Videotape, Lolita
World 163
169
SN-A-2 Web Buddy CD, Landslide
176 176
SN-A-2.1 Landslide Home Page
177 177
SN-A-2.2 Company Profile
178 178
SN-A-2.3 Customer Guarantee
179 179
SN-A-2.4 Site Owner Benefits
180 180
SN-A-2.5 Membership Status
182 182
SN-A-2.6 Counter Log File
183 183
SN-A-2.7 Income Generator
184 184
SN-A-2.8 KeyZ Usage Agreement
186 186
SN-A-2.9 Sample Member Signup
186 186
SN-A-2.10 Trouble Shooting Instructions 187
188
SN-A-2.11 Banner on Landslide Home Page 188
188
SN-A-2.12 VisualRoute, Landslide
189 189
SN-A-2.13 Domain Registration, Landslide 191
191
SN-B-1 Videotape, Blackcat
Lolita 193 193
Photo Series and
Fucking
Little Kids
SN-B-2 Web Buddy CD, Blackcat Lolita
195 195
Photo Series
SN-B-2.1 Blackcat Lolita Photo Series
195 195
Home Page
SN-B-2.2 VisualRoute, Blackcat Lolita
197 197
Photo Series
SN-B-3 E-mail Account Information
198 198
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL II, 122
I N D E X
GOVERNMENT'S DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE CONTINUED
No.
Description
Offered Admitted
SN-B-4 Image of Child
Pornography 199
204
SN-C-2 Web Buddy CD, Lolita Hardcore
206 206
SN-C-2.1 Lolita Hardcore Home Page
207 209
SN-C-2.2 AVS Classifieds
211 211
SN-C-2.3 VisualRoute, Lolita Hardcore
212 212
and Fucking Little
Kids
SN-C-3 E-mail Account Information
213 213
SN-C-4 Image of Child Pornography
214 214
SN-C-5 Image of Child Pornography
214 214
SN-C-6 Image of Child Pornography
215 215
SN-C-7 Image of Child Pornography
216 216
SN-D-2 Web Buddy CD, Lolita World
217 217
SN-D-2.1 Lolita World Home Page
217 217
SN-D-2.2 VisualRoute, Lolita World
218 219
SN-D-3 E-mail Account Information
219 219
SN-D-4 Image of Child Pornography
220 220
SN-D-5 Image of Child Pornography
220 221
SN-D-6 Image of Child Pornography
221 221
SN-D-7 Image of Child Pornography
222 222
SN-D-8 Image of Child Pornography
222 222
SN-D-9 Image of Child Pornography
223 223
SN-E-1 Videotape, Child Rape,
223 224
Children of God,
Just Grow
Up, and Children
Forced To Porn
SN-E-2 Web Buddy CD, Child Rape
224 224
SN-E-2.1 Child Rape Home Page
225 225
SN-E-2.2 VisualRoute, Child Rape
225 225
SN-E-3 E-mail Account Confirmation
225 225
SN-E-4 Image of Child Pornography
226 226
SN-E-5 Image of Child Pornography
227 227
SN-E-6 Image of Child Pornography
227 227
SN-F-2 Web Buddy CD, Children of God
228 228
SN-F-2.1 Children of God Home Page
229 229
SN-F-2.2 VisualRoute, Children of God
229 229
SN-F-3 Undercover E-mail
230 230
SN-F-4 Image of Child Pornography
231 231
SN-F-5 Image of Child Pornography
231 231
SN-F-6 Image of Child Pornography
232 232
SN-F-7 Image of Child Pornography
232 232
SN-F-8 Image of Child Pornography
232 232
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL II, 123
I N D E X
GOVERNMENT'S DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE CONTINUED
No. Description Offered Admitted
SN-G-2 Web Buddy CD, Just
Grow Up 233
233
SN-G-2.1 Just Grow Up Home Page
234 234
SN-G-2.2 VisualRoute, Just Grow Up
235 235
SN-G-3 E-mail Account Confirmation
235 235
SN-G-4 Image of Child Pornography
235 236
SN-G-5 Image of Child Pornography
236 236
SN-G-6 Image of Child Pornography
236 237
SN-G-7 Image of Child Pornography
237 237
SN-H-2 Web Buddy CD,
Children Forced 238 238
To Porn
SN-H-2.1 Children Forced To Porn Home
238 238
Page
SN-H-2.2 VisualRoute, Children Forced
239 239
To Porn
SN-H-4 Image of Child Pornography
239 240
SN-I-1 Videotape, Fantastic
Site and 241 241
Special Site
SN-I-2 Web Buddy CD, Fantastic Site
242 242
SN-I-2.1 Fantastic Site Home Page
242 243
SN-I-2.2 VisualRoute, Fantastic Site
243 243
SN-I-3 E-mail Account Confirmation
244 244
SN-I-4 Image of Child Pornography
245 245
SN-I-5 Image of Child Pornography
245 245
SN-I-6 Image of Child Pornography
246 246
SN-I-7 Image of Child Pornography
246 246
SN-I-8 Image of Child Pornography
247 247
SN-J-1 Videotape, Lolita's
Land 248
248
SN-J-2 Web Buddy CD, Lolita's Land
248 248
SN-J-2.1 Lolita's Land Home Page
249 249
SN-J-2.2 VisualRoute, Lolita's Land
250 250
SN-J-3 E-mail Account Information
250 250
SN-J-4 Movie of Child Pornography
251 251
SN-J-5 Movie of Child Pornography
252 252
SN-J-6 Movie of Child Pornography
253 253
SN-J-7 Movie of Child Pornography
253 253
SN-J-8 Movie of Child Pornography
254 254
SN-J-9 Movie of Child Pornography
254 254
SN-J-10 Movie of Child Pornography
255 255
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL II, 124
I N D E X
GOVERNMENT'S DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE CONTINUED
No.
Description
Offered Admitted
SN-K-2 Web Buddy CD,
Special Site 255
256
SN-K-2.1 Special Site Home Page
256 257
SN-K-2.2 VisualRoute, Special Site
257 257
SN-K-3 E-mail Account confirmation
257 258
SN-K-4 Image of Child Pornography
259 259
SN-K-5 Image of Child Pornography
259 259
SN-K-6 Image of Child Pornography
260 260
SN-K-7 Image of Child Pornography
260 260
SN-K-8 Image of Child Pornography
261 261
SN-K-9 Image of Child Pornography
261 261
SN-K-10 Image of Child Pornography
261 262
SN-L-1 April 1999 Visa
Credit Card 262
262
Statement
SN-L-2 May 1999 Visa Credit Card
263 263
Statement
SN-L-3 June 1999 Visa Credit Card
263 263
Statement
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL II, 125
P R O C E E D I N G S,
(Jury not present.)
THE COURT: Mr. Heiskell, I've been informed you have
something for the Court?
MR. HEISKELL: Yes, Your Honor. Very briefly, our
two experts are here. Mr. Patrick O'Leary and Mr. Jerry Crabb
are seated at the table behind me. This is pursuant to the
request made to the Court and the Court granted concerning
their being in the courtroom while the government's experts
testify as to their opinions, et cetera.
They are here and I've talked to Ms. Moore about it this
morning concerning even the first witness, Detective Nelson,
who will be the first witness concerning the images that he
produced.
Am I correct, Terri, in that?
MS. MOORE: Yes.
MR. HEISKELL: And she has no objections for them
being here for that as well.
Your Honor, I've asked them if this is a convenient place,
and I understand, because of the angle, it may be that they
would need to sit over here, with the Court's permission, so
they can see the screen clearly.
THE COURT: As long as there's no disruption or
confusion, that's fine.
MR. HEISKELL: All right. That's all, Your Honor.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL II, 126
MS. MOORE: Judge, although we never
filed a motion
asking that the government's expert be allowed to be in the
courtroom as well, when Mr. Heiskell conferenced with me on
that I said as long as we can do the same thing.
MR. HEISKELL: That's no problem, Your Honor.
MS. MOORE: And we have Mike Marshall here. He's
expected to be the second witness in the case, but we would
like for him to be in here since theirs are in here. He
doesn't need to sit up here. He's already viewed everything.
MR. HEISKELL: That's fine.
MR. BALL: We don't have an objection to that.
THE COURT: All right.
MS. MOORE: We have Mike Marshall and Dane Ritcheson,
so they will be excluded from the rule.
MR. BALL: That's fine.
THE COURT: All right. Are you ready for the jury?
MR. HEISKELL: Yes, sir.
(Jury in, 9:14 a.m.)
THE COURT: Did you find your accommodations
suitable?
All right. The parties have agreed that the entire
indictment will not be read to you this morning. It is
provided in your notebook and you should read it at your first
opportunity. It's there to be reviewed. It is the document
that charges the defendants. It is the document that sets out
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL II, 127
what the government must prove.
At the conclusion of the case I will give you some
instructions that will tell you how to apply the law to the
case, and it will use the indictment and the statements in the
indictment as the basis, as I said, for what had to have been
proven by beyond a reasonable doubt. Because the parties have
agreed that the entire indictment will not be now read, we will
merely take the plea of the defendants at this time.
Will the defendants please stand. The grand jury has
returned an indictment, 89 counts against the defendants,
Thomas Reedy, Janice Reedy, and Landslide, Incorporated.
Mr. Reedy, how do you plead to the 89 counts in the
indictment returned by the grand jury, guilty or not guilty?
DEFENDANT THOMAS REEDY: Not guilty.
THE COURT: Janice Reedy, how do you plead to the
indictment that's been returned by the grand jury, guilty or
not guilty?
DEFENDANT JANICE REEDY: Not guilty.
THE COURT: And how does the corporation, Landslide,
Incorporated, plead to the indictment that's been returned
against it by the grand jury, guilty or not guilty?
DEFENDANT THOMAS REEDY: Not guilty.
THE COURT: You may be seated.
I have allotted a considerable amount of time to both
parties for their opening statements, both sides for their
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL II, 128
opening statements.
Ms. Moore, will you be making the opening statement of the
government?
MS. MOORE: I will, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may proceed.
MS. MOORE: Thank you.
Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. I want to talk to you
for a second about that indictment. You don't have to open it
up and try to read it right now. It would be probably too
confusing at this point, but if you listen to what I say about
it I think I can simplify it for you and make it
understandable. You heard the Judge say there are 89 counts in
this indictment.
Essentially, Count 1 charges the defendants with a
conspiracy to violate a particular statute, and that statute is
Title 18 of the United States Code, Section 2252. And that is
the crime that makes it illegal for someone to transport in
interstate commerce images of child pornography, okay, of
children, obviously. So a child is anybody under 18.
Interstate commerce is commerce between the states.
Foreign commerce is commerce between another country and this
country. And using a computer to do that makes it a federal
crime. So Count 1 is a conspiracy to violate that particular
statute.
Counts 2 through 44 are actual violations of that statute,
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL II, 129
not a conspiracy to violate it, but an actual violation of
2252. We've outlined a particular image in each one of those
counts, Count 2 through 44, that violates that particular
statute, 2252.
Now, Count 45 is a conspiracy to violate a different
statute, and that statute is Title 18, United States Code,
Section 2252A. The difference between 2252 and 2252A is
essentially this: 2252 talks about images of children engaged
in sexually explicit conduct. Well, that's a real child, a
human being, okay? Well, as you can imagine, when that was the
only statute, sometimes you don't know who these kids are. You
can't bring them in to show they're a real person, so people
were getting found not guilty.
So Congress passed another statute, 2252A. It's the same
thing. It's a crime if you transport in interstate commerce
images of children, and in this particular deal they say they
don't care if it's a real child or one that's morphed out to
look like a child, okay?
So going back to the indictment, Count 45 is a conspiracy
to violate that statute, and then Counts 46 through 88 are
those particular images that violate that statute. And I will
tell you that those images are the exact images that are used
in Counts 2 through 44. So, see, it's really not that hard,
okay?
Now, Count 89 is a possession count. That's different.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL II, 130
That means it's charging these people with actually being in
possession of the images themselves. And that's essentially
the statute.
Now, what are we going prove to you guys in this case?
We're going to prove to you that Thomas Reedy and Janice Reedy
are the owners of a company called Landslide, Incorporated.
They had probably an approximation of about 20 employees when
they started out. Well, they started out from a home, but then
they advanced to Belknap Street down here just across from the
courthouse. That's where their business was. And it was
Landslide, Inc., and it was operated from there.
Later on, while this investigation was going on, I might
add, they moved a little further out Belknap, out in the
Riverside area to a street called Seaman Street. And so that's
where they were operating from whenever this case came to a
halt, I guess, with the execution of search warrants.
You will learn during this case that these people --
Thomas Reedy, Janice Reedy, and the company -- were involved in
the conspiracy with webmasters, many of whom are foreign,
Indonesian, Russian, and whatnot, to transport and distribute
child pornography. And the way it worked is that the foreign
devils, if you will, had the dirty images. They wanted to sell
them to people. They wanted to sell them to customers, or as
we call them, subscribers or users. But they needed a
middleman, and that's where these people come in. They are the
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL II, 131
middleman.
They would collect the money on behalf of the foreigners,
and when they did they gave the consumer, or the subscriber or
the user, whatever you want to call him, access. If the
consumer wanted to get in and see dirty images, he had to pay
these people first. Once he paid, the door was open and they
could go access it.
They were in a conspiracy with the webmasters and the
users all to transport this child pornography. Now, they were
in it for the money. They had a cut. The webmaster got 60
percent, and the Reedys got 40 percent. So that's essentially
how it worked with them being the middleman.
Now, how did all this get started? It all got started
when Bob Adams called Detective Nelson with the Dallas Police
Department that works on a Task Force involving child
exploitation and said we got a tip that here is a dirty web
site loaded down with child pornography. And Detective Steve
Nelson is a pretty good computer guy, so he got right on the
computer and pulled up that site and, sure enough, he had to
pay to get access. And so using an undercover name and an
undercover credit card, he paid and got access to a dirty web
site. And, sure enough, it was loaded with child pornography.
You're going to hear the first witness this morning is
Detective Steve Nelson. He's going to walk you through what he
did, and what he did once he found this is, of course, he
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL II, 132
relayed it to the Postal Inspection, which was the main agency
on this case, and told them what he had found. And he started
videotaping, literally videotaping, him going back to the site,
paying the money, getting the access, and you're going to watch
some of that videotape.
Now, let me tell you this. There's 20 hours of videotape,
and we're not going to show you 20 hours. We don't have that
much time to try this case. But we've got it narrowed down to
about 12, 13 minutes of the videotape, and you can get the
picture in a hurry, okay?
He went in, and you're going to see him as he did it.
You're going to see him click his mouse, you know, for those of
you that are computer savvy. And for those of you that aren't,
you can watch him as he did it and gained access to the site.
Now, when he would do this, he obviously had to pay his
money. And who did he pay his money to but these people
sitting right over here. And what he would get back from them
is a confirmation e-mail from Landslide that says, "Thank you
for your business, and here is your confirmation."
Detective Nelson provided his own password. All the
consumers did, and then they would provide a user ID. So then
he went and he bought a bunch of sites. He bought sites like
Child Rape. That's the name of it. Children Forced To Porn,
Children of God, et cetera, and so on. We've got about 11 of
those different sites that he purchased, and each time he did
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL II, 133
he got the confirmation e-mail from them. So now, you know,
the tip is there. It's obviously child pornography. You know
that Landslide is sending you back an e-mail and allowing you
access. You're paying Landslide, and so he starts trying to
find out who is Landslide.
And you will hear from this detective what efforts he took
to find out who is Landslide and to track down the people that
were responsible for this. And what you'll hear is after he
shared this information with the postal inspectors, the FBI,
Customs. There were a number of people working on this because
of all the foreign implications. He shared this information
with them, and they worked on it for a while. Not only did he
videotape it -- Let me add this. Not only did he videotape it,
but then he turned around and he did something called Web
Buddy, and Web Buddy is essentially a software program that
allows him to go in and capture the whole site, to make a copy
of the whole site, so that he didn't have to sit there online
with a videotape rolling and you watching him what he did. He
went in and he Web Buddied it, and then he could, offline, go
into the site and look at the different images. And the
quality is so much better. So you'll see a little VHS tape,
you'll see a little Web Buddy, and you'll see the images that
Detective Nelson saw.
At any rate, when he gathers all this information after
these hours and hours of videotaping it and Web Buddying it and
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL II, 134
doing searches to find out who Landslide is and where they're
located and whatnot, he shares all this information with Bob
Adams, the FBI, Customs, and all these guys. And what you'll
hear is that Inspector Adams put that information down in an
affidavit and went to see a Magistrate Judge, and the
Magistrate Judge gave him a search warrant. And they then
executed their search warrant at the business of Landslide on
Seaman Street and at the home of Thomas and Janice Reedy, and
you will hear that they went there looking for evidence of this
conspiracy and child pornography, and the evidence will show
that they hit a gold mine.
That when they went to the business, there were a bunch of
employees there. Of course, they were up and running; and they
went in and made mirror images of the computer systems. Some
of the computers they actually took; others they took mirror
images of. And they searched it and they went about searching
it slowly and meticulously. And they found -- they found the
books. They found the books that Janice Reedy, who is the
money tracker. You'll even hear her e-mail address is
money@landslide. She's the one that keeps up with all the
money. That she had a software program called QuickBooks, and
they found all the documentation where she had been sending
wire transfers to these foreign webmasters and checks to these
foreign webmasters. They found the e-mails from these foreign
webmasters. They found the whole thing at the business that
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL II, 135
shows this conspiracy and how this business operated to
transport child pornography.
You will hear that they then went to the house of Thomas
and Janice Reedy because they worked at home a lot. Thomas
Reedy worked predominantly there, and Janice Reedy was in and
out of the business and back at the house and worked there
quite often. So they went there and they searched, and they
found more than just e-mails and records of the conspiracy.
They literally found dirty pictures of children on their
computer, okay? And I think the evidence will show that there
are more than 50. I think it's about 77 images of child
pornography at their home.
You will hear that it wasn't just connecting the user,
okay, to the other -- to dirty pictures, also. I mean, that's
the big case. But they were involved in more than that. Like
I say, they had dirty images at their house, which that's the
possession count, okay? They also had something called the
classifieds. The classifieds won't have a single dirty picture
on it, but the classifieds is in the indictment. It is an
advertising mechanism. It's just like the classifieds in the
newspaper. If you open up the classifieds in the newspaper,
you'll see help wanted and this and that.
Well, if you open the classifieds that Thomas Reedy
designed, you will see pedophiles talking to pedophiles. You
will see somebody advertising, "I've got a child. If you want
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL II, 136
to come have sex with them, come on down." You will see
somebody saying, "I'm looking for a kid. Who's got one for
me?" You will see pedophiles saying, "Oh, do you have any
pictures? Let's trade pictures," or, "How about your password?
If I could trade your password, I could have access to those
sites."
You will see this open forum of pedophilia that is the
responsibility of Thomas and Janice Reedy and the corporation
of Landslide that helps to promote child pornography. That's
what these people have done.
And after these agents searched all this information,
gathered all this information, put it together in an
indictment, you will see, also, in the forfeiture count of the
indictment that these people were getting rich off the misery
of children. The evidence will show you that. The evidence
will show that Thomas Reedy was driving around in a brand new
Mercedes Benz; that his brother who worked there, ion Reedy,
was driving around in a brand new Mercedes Benz; that Janice
Reedy had a brand new vehicle that they just wrote out a check
for completely. That they were living in a big, fancy house,
okay, where their daughter lived with them. And they were
getting rich off the misery of children.
And you can look to the forfeiture count in the indictment
and you will see the forfeiture count specifies that $1,111,266
were derived from child pornography. That essentially will be
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL II, 137
what we prove to you in this courtroom in the next few days,
and at the conclusion of it we'll ask you to find these people
guilty.
THE COURT: Mr. Ball, do you wish to make an opening
statement?
MR. BALL: Yes, Your Honor, briefly.
THE COURT: You may proceed.
MR. BALL: Thank you.
Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. I'll be very brief.
You're going to learn a lot about computers and the internet
that you probably didn't know about during the course of this
case from government witnesses and from defense witnesses, and
when you deal with technology things are not always as they
initially appear.
Congress passed a law called the Child Online Protection
Act, and that was the genesis of Landslide and their business.
That law's purpose was to prevent children from accessing adult
material on the internet, because it's all over the internet
and it was just a free run. Anybody with a computer could just
go look at anything. Your children and our children, anyone's
children, could just go in and look at these pictures.
And so Congress passed a law to try to balance between the
right of adults to look at First Amendment protected material,
because adults do have the right to look at some of that
material, as disgusting or immoral as some people may believe
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL II, 138
it is, with the other notion that children shouldn't look at
that, because that's illegal to allow children to look at that
sort of material.
And so Congress concluded that one way was to require the
presentation of a credit card to prove that an individual was
an adult before they could access this material. And that
created, and you heard during the voir dire, during the jury
selection process, a little discussion about what are called
adult verification services.
And that was the idea that originated with Mr. Reedy, that
you could create a business that would require the presentation
of a credit card on the idea that banks don't issue credit
cards to children. I'm sure it's not 100 percent perfect, but
it's as close as they could get. And then by requiring a
presentation of that credit card that would verify that person
is an adult and then they could be allowed access to adult-type
material. And that was the genesis of -- you're going to hear
about something called AVS, which is Adult Verification Service
or System. And that's how this started.
And when this business was set up, Mr. Reedy created a
program and some computer web pages and so forth, that people
could go to that wanted to look at the dirty pictures and
present their credit card and they would get a password -- or
they would actually create their own password and a user ID
that would allow them access to a number of sites. And you'll
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL II, 139
hear evidence in this case that most of those sites, the great
majority of them, were run by webmasters located all over the
world, some in the United States, some in foreign countries,
Russia, Indonesia, literally thousands of web sites run by
other people. And the pictures that you would actually see if
you went to look at the pictures and presented the credit card
would be pictures posted and hosted by people living in other
countries and other parts of the United States.
The content, you'll hear reference to the content. The
content will be the things that the user, the subscriber, would
want to see. With the exception of a few web sites, that
content was under the control of these other webmasters, these
foreigners and people living in other states, not under the
control of Mr. Reedy. And there were literally thousands of
web sites.
He had two systems, AVS and KeyZ. KeyZ primarily will be
the focus of the government's case, because KeyZ did end up
with a proliferation of some web sites that contained illegal
child pornography type material that was run by people in other
countries, typically Russia or Indonesia, where perhaps the
enforcement of the law is not as adequate as it should be.
Those pictures were hosted by those webmasters in those
other countries, not by computers run by Mr. Reedy. Mr. Reedy,
you will hear evidence, discussed his business with the FBI
before this search warrant was run. Mr. Reedy believed he was
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engaged in a legal business of protecting children from access
to adult material.
Mr. Reedy was not in a position to review or censor
literally thousands of web sites that would change content on a
-- With the blink of an eye, the content could be changed. You
will hear some more about the technology of that.
And the ones responsible, a conspiracy, there are two
counts in the indictment alleging conspiracy. Conspiracy,
essentially, in simple terms, is an agreement among people to
violate the law. And you will hear evidence that there was no
agreement between Mr. Reedy or Janice Reedy or Landslide with
anybody to violate the law. The parties responsible such as
Boris Greenberg of Russia, R.W. Kusuma -- I may mispronounce
this -- of Indonesia, and Hanny Ingganata of Indonesia that
were actually showing these pictures, who got these pictures
from somewhere and posted them on the internet, that is, the
illegal pictures, are not here.
They are the movie, the theater owner, the movie
producers, if you will; and Mr. Reedy is the ticket taker at
the theater. And Ms. Reedy is the bookkeeper.
Ms. Moore mentioned the adult classifieds. You'll hear a
lot about how -- and pay particular attention to how the
internet works and how things get on there and where things
came from. The adult classifieds was simply a place where
people could go to a web site, Mr. Reedy's web site, and
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advertise virtually anything. They could advertise hot dogs,
and, indeed, many people chose to advertise or claim that they
were interested in pedophile-type material.
And how did that material get on this adult classified?
Did Mr. Reedy put it on there? Did he review it? Did he
receive applications to put ads? No, it was self-automated.
You could literally go to that site and put, "I'm selling chili
dogs tomorrow on Main Street for 50 cents apiece," and hit a
button and your ad was there immediately. No human
intervention. Anyone could put literally anything, and you'll
hear evidence that that site, because of the proliferation of
pedophile and child-oriented material, was shut down because of
what it ended up containing, who seemed to gravitate to it.
And if she makes her flight, you'll hear from someone from
the United Kingdom, Catrina Day, who will be interesting. Her
background is quite interesting, but Ms. Day was a webmaster.
Somewhat like webmasters that were in Russia or Indonesia, she
put adult content on the internet, and it was not child
pornography. It was perhaps legal but offensive-type material,
and she will give you the perspective from the webmaster's side
of this, of who controlled the content and how business was
conducted with Landslide and with the Reedys so that you can
see where the responsibility lies and how quickly the content
could be changed and how the content wasn't reviewed or
submitted for review to Mr. Reedy and his organization.
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At the end of the case you will see from the evidence that
there was no conspiracy; that there was no distribution on the
part of Mr. Reedy, Janice Reedy, or Landslide; that there was
no transportation or distribution of child pornography type
materials by Mr. Reedy, Ms. Reedy, or Landslide. And at the
end of the case we will ask you to return verdicts of not
guilty as to these counts. Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Heiskell, do you wish to make an
opening statement on behalf of Janice Reedy?
MR. HEISKELL: Your Honor, at this time Janice Reedy,
we would reserve the right to make an opening prior to the
presentation of our case in chief.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. HEISKELL: Thank you very much.
THE COURT: The government may call its first
witness.
MS. MOORE: We'll call Detective Steve Nelson.
THE COURT: Ms. Moore, I don't recall who I swore in
yesterday. Was Mr. Nelson among those?
MS. MOORE: Yes, Your Honor.
MR. HEISKELL: And, of course, we will invoke the
rule, Your Honor, except for those matters we took up outside
the presence of the jury.
THE COURT: All right.
Detective Nelson, if you'll step forward and recall that
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you're under oath, you may be seated.
Any person who is in the courtroom who expects to testify
in this case should now exit the courtroom and remain close by
subject to call under the instruction of the Court that you are
not to discuss your testimony with anyone who has testified or
who will testify, but you may discuss your testimony prior to
giving it with the attorney who will be calling you.
You may proceed.
STEVEN A. NELSON,
having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Will you state your name, please, sir.
A. Steven A. Nelson.
Q. How are you employed?
A. Dallas Police Department.
How long have you worked for the Dallas Police Department? A. Almost
26 years now.
Q. What do you do for them?
A. I'm a detective in the Child Exploitation Unit.
Q. How long of the 26 years has been dedicated to the child
unit?
A. Ten years.
Q. Okay. Detective Nelson, were you asked to aid the United
States Postal Inspection Service in the investigation of this
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case?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Can you tell us how that came about?
A. In late April of 1999, I received a phone call from
Inspector Bob Adams, who I've worked with in the past on child
exploitation cases, child pornography cases, child abductions,
and he knew that I had just been assigned to an Internet Crimes
Against Children's Task Force we received a grant for and asked
me to -- knew that I was online and if I could look at a
particular site.
Q. Okay. Now, would you mind pulling that microphone just a
little bit closer to your mouth. Okay.
Now, some folks may not be computer savvy, so when you say
online and a site, what are you talking about?
A. I'm talking about the world wide web, the computers
getting online, going to sites over through cyberspace, things
like that.
Q. Okay. And so were you -- Did he give you any particular
site name and site address?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Okay. And what did you do with that information?
A. Well, I was actually on the phone with him as I typed the
address in to the address block on the computer, as I was
online, and pulled up that particular site.
Q. What was the name of that site, Detective Nelson?
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A. It was kintamani.com, and it was a link to Lolita World.
THE COURT: Would you say that again, please, sir.
THE WITNESS: Kintamani.com, and it was a link to a
site called Lolita World.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Now, when you type in that address and you hit enter, can
you describe for us what happens.
A. Basically, I mean, you go to the site, and there's text on
it. Sometimes there might be pictures telling you what the
site is, advertisements, things like that.
THE COURT: I have forgotten to give preliminary
instructions.
MS. MOORE: Oh, okay. We can take a break and let
you do that.
THE COURT: I think we need to take time out for
that.
MS. MOORE: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: You may step down, sir.
I looked over there thinking are the jurors taking notes,
and that reminded me I have instructions about taking notes
that I forgot to give this morning. We went a little out of
order yesterday, so I slipped a cog here.
You have preliminary instructions in your notebooks.
They're there for you to follow along as I read them to you,
but you don't have to follow along. You may just listen if you
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prefer. And I apologize to the parties.
Now that you have been sworn, I will give you some
instructions to guide you on your participation in the trial.
It will be your duty to find from the evidence what the facts
are. You and you alone are the judges of the facts. You will
then have to apply to those facts the law as the Court will
give it to you. You must follow that law whether you agree
with it or not. Nothing the Court may say or do during the
course of the trial is intended to indicate, nor should be
taken by you as indicating, what your verdict should be.
The evidence from which you will find the facts will
consist of the testimony of witnesses, documents, and other
things received into the record as exhibits and any facts the
lawyers agree or stipulate to and any facts of which the Court
takes judicial notice or that the Court may instruct you to
find.
Certain things are not evidence and must not be considered
by you. I will list them for you now. Statements, arguments,
and questions by lawyers are not evidence. Objections to
questions are not evidence. Lawyers have an obligation to
their clients to make an objection when they believe evidence
being offered is improper under the rules of evidence. You
should not be influenced by the objection or by the Court's
ruling on it. If the objection is sustained, ignore the
question. If the objection is overruled, treat the answer that
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follows like any other answer. If you are instructed that some
item of evidence is received for a limited purpose only, you
must follow that instruction.
Testimony that the Court has excluded or told you to
disregard is not evidence and must not be considered. Anything
you may have seen or heard outside the courtroom is not
evidence and must be disregarded. You are to decide the case
solely on the evidence presented here in the courtroom.
There are two kinds of evidence: direct and
circumstantial. Direct evidence is direct proof of a fact,
such as testimony of an eyewitness. Circumstantial evidence is
proof of facts from which you may infer or conclude that other
facts exist. I will give you further instructions on these as
well as other matters at the end of the case, but have in mind
that you may consider both kinds of evidence.
It will be up to you to decide which witnesses to believe,
which witnesses not to believe, and how much of any witness's
testimony to accept or reject. I will give you some guidelines
for determining the credibility of witnesses at the end of the
case.
If the Court takes judicial notice of any fact, the jury
may, but is not required, to accept such fact as conclusively
established.
As you know, this is a criminal case. There are three
basic rules about a criminal case that you must keep in mind.
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First, the defendants are presumed innocent until.proven
guilty. The indictment against the defendants brought by the
government is only an accusation, nothing more. It is not
proof of guilt or anything else. The defendants, therefore,
start out with a clean slate.
Second, the burden of proof is on the government until the
very end of the case. The defendants have no burden to prove
their innocence or to present any evidence or to testify.
Since the defendants have the right to remain silent, the law
prohibits you in arriving at your verdict from considering that
the defendants may not have testified.
Third, the government must prove each defendant's guilt
beyond a reasonable doubt. I will give you further
instructions on this point later, but bear in mind that in this
respect a criminal case is different from a civil case.
At the appointed time the government, through the
Assistant United States Attorney, will read the indictment, and
we've already handled that.
I will give you detailed instructions on the law at the
end of the case, and those instructions will control your
deliberations and decision.
Now, a few words about your conduct as jurors. First, I
instruct you that during the trial you are not to discuss the
case with anyone or permit anyone to discuss it with you.
Until you retire to the jury room at the end of the case to
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deliberate on your verdict, you are simply not to talk about
this case.
Second, do not read or listen to anything touching on this
case in any way. If anyone should try to talk to you about it,
bring it to the Court's attention promptly.
Third, do not try to make any investigation about the case
on your own. Do not conduct any research, such as looking up
the dictionary definition of a word during the course of the
trial. You are to be guided in your deliberations and
decisions on what you learn in the courtroom during the course
of the trial, taking into account instructions I give you and
nothing else.
Insofar as the lawyers are concerned, as well as others
whom you recognize as having some connection with the case, you
are instructed that in order to avoid even the appearance of
impropriety you should have no conversation whatsoever with
those persons while you are serving on the jury.
Finally, do not form any opinion until you have all the
evidence in. Keep an open mind until you start your
deliberations at the end of the case.
If you would like to take notes during the trial you may
do so. On the other hand, you are not required to take notes
if you prefer not to do so. Each of you should make your own
decision about this. If you do decide to take notes, be
careful not to get so involved in note taking that you become
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
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distracted from the ongoing proceedings. Your notes should be
used only as memory aids. You should not give your notes
precedence over your independent recollection of the evidence.
If you do take notes, you should rely upon your own independent
recollection of the proceedings and you should not be unduly
influenced by the notes of other jurors.
Notes are not entitled to any greater weight than the
memory or impression of each juror as to what the testimony may
have been. Whether you take notes or not, each of you should
form and express your own opinion as to the facts of the case.
You will notice that we do have an official court reporter
making a record of the trial; however, we will not have
typewritten transcripts of this record available for your use
in reaching a decision in this case.
During the trial, I may be called upon to rule on motions
or objections made by the lawyers. You should not infer from
any ruling I may make that I have any opinions on the merits
of the case favoring one side or the other. If I sustain an
objection to a question that goes unanswered by the witness,
you should not speculate on what answer might have been
given, nor should you draw any inferences from the question
itself.
During the trial it may be necessary for me to confer with
the lawyers outside of your hearing concerning questions of law
or procedure that require consideration by the Court alone. On
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some occasions you may be excused from the courtroom as a
convenience to you and to us while I discuss such matters with
the lawyers. I will try to limit these, but you should
remember the matter you are here to determine and should be
patient even though the case may seem to go slowly.
When the government calls a witness, it will be required
to state which count or counts of the indictment the witness
will testify about. A count of the indictment is an allegation
that one or more of the defendants committed a crime. Pay
careful attention to the government's representation as to
which count or counts it expects a witness to testify about,
because it will help you to assimilate and organize the
testimony during your deliberations.
If you decide to take notes, I suggest that you take down
the number of the count or counts the government states that a
witness's testimony will relate to. Also, pay close attention
to the names and dates about which the witnesses testify.
Often they are the facts around which you will eventually
organize the evidence in your minds when the testimony is
complete and you have been entrusted with the fate of the
defendants. For the same reason, the numbers given the
exhibits as they are admitted into evidence are also worthy of
notation and/or close attention.
When the trial begins, the government will read the
indictment. Again, we've dispensed with that. And the
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defendants will make their plea. Then the government will make
an opening statement -- you've heard that -- which is simply an
outline to help you understand the evidence as it comes in.
Next, the defendant's attorneys may, but do not have to,
make opening statements. Opening statements are neither
evidence nor arguments. The government will then present its
witnesses, and counsel for the defendants may cross-examine
them.
Following the government's case, the defendants may, if
they wish, present witnesses whom the government may
cross-examine. After all the evidence is in, the attorneys
will present their closing arguments to summarize and interpret
the evidence for you, and the Court will instruct you on the
law. After that you will retire to deliberate.
Thank you. You may resume. You'll be happy to know I
have not docked you for that time.
MS. MOORE: Okay.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Okay. Detective Nelson, I think you were telling us that
you typed in the address and I think my question was what
happened after you put the address in. It took you to the
site.
A. Yes,
Q. And you saw banners and maybe a few pictures?
Advertisements?
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A. Yes.
Q. And then if you wanted to buy into that, what would you
have to do?
A. You would have to basically go to a site that would --
give a credit card, your address, things like that, to be
verified to gain access to the site.
Q. Okay. Now, how would you go to that other site if you're
already at this site with the little images of. . .
A. Well, in businesses like this, the front page you usually
get are your advertisements and what we called teasers. You
get a few pictures, and when you want to actually, like, get
into the site, it doesn't let you go any further. It tells
you, you have to buy this site before you can access any
further pages to this site.
Q. Okay. So you click on something and it takes you to a
signup page?
A. A signup page type deal.
Q. And what did you have to enter on the signup page in order
to buy into the site?
A. You had to put your name, address, your credit card,
credit card number, expiration date -- standard credit card
information.
Q. And did you do that in this case?
A. Yes. I used an undercover persona, undercover credit card.
Q. So you have an identity that's undercover and you also
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have a credit card to go along with that?
A. Yes. That's what my assignment is now, is strictly
undercover.
Q. Okay. So using that you bought into this particular site.
Can you tell us what you saw?
A. After I bought into it?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. There was basically what they would call other galleries
or rooms you could go into. You click on a certain gallery or
room, and a whole page would pull up of what we call
thumbnails.
Q. What's a thumbnail?
A. Small pictures that are compressed, and that if you wanted
to see an actual picture you just, with your mouse click or
double click on the little thumbnail and it pops to a big
picture that you can see on your whole screen of your computer.
THE COURT: And the big picture would be an enlarged
image of the thumbnail?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. And what would that image be of?
A. The images on these sites were prepubescent children in
basically lewd poses, sexual conduct with adults, and other
children.
Q. Now, when you say "children," you understand that the law
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says anybody under 18?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. What you're describing as children, give us an idea
of the age of the kids you're talking about.
A. From babies in diapers to teenagers.
Q. Okay. And give us some idea of -- is it just a picture of
a naked kid, or what were you actually seeing on these
different sites?
A. Well, it depended on which particular site that you went
to. On this particular site, it was basically images of nude
children. Some of them would be just regular nudist-type
shots, poses. Other would be lewd exhibition of the genitals,
and other poses would be actual sexual intercourse, sexual
conduct, with adults or other children.
Q. So you saw kids being raped?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. How much did that site, this first site that you
bought, how much did that cost?
A. When you first sign up for it, when this first process
started, it was $29.95 for 30 days. And at the very first of
this operation when I bought into this site you could let it
automatically roll over for another 30 days without having to
sign up again. It was like a reoccurring billing. You could
have that do that as many times as you wanted to.
Q. When you say you first started this operation it did that.
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Did it change later?
A. Later on it changed to where after your 30 days or
whatever day it was, how many days it was for that particular
site you signed up for, after it ran out you had to actually go
back into the site again, resign up, and just get it for a
month at a time.
Q. Now, when you signed up, when you entered your password or
you entered your credit card information, did you receive any
information back before going into a site?
A. Well, once you gave your name, credit card information,
they would ask you for what password you wanted to use. You
would hit enter, and almost instantly, or within a few minutes,
I got back an e-mail from the site confirming that my credit
card was okay; that I had this particular site that I signed up
for. It told me what my user name was and what my password was
and that my credit card bill would be charged to a certain
company.
Q. Okay. And who did you receive that e-mail from?
A. From Landslide.
Q. Okay. Now, when you went in this first time and you
bought all this and saw this process, what did you do, if
anything, to try to capture this information?
A. Well, looking at the site initially, I knew it was going
to be a pretty big undertaking, because there was a lot of
information on this particular site. So with some technical
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assistance, I received basically a card, internet card, that I
had put in the computer and it basically made my computer like
a television set that I could hook it up to a VCR and basically
record, as I'm on the internet going to all the sites and
watching my mouse click here and mouse click there, and
actually be recording it on the videotape. So just like a TV
set at your home, you record a TV show, that's what was being
done with this particular card.
Q. And so that recording is a VHS tape?
A. Yes.
Q. And it shows you live as you go through the site.
A. As I was on that particular day and time, it shows me as I
was going through everything.
Q. Can you tell the Judge and jury approximately how many
hours of videotape you did capturing different sites?
A. I probably sat there over 30, 40 hours on each site that I
purchased. I had to go through from start to finish, just
recording everything.
Q. Okay. And when you say "each site that you purchased,"
how many sites did you purchase?
A. I purchased approximately ten sites. I actually recorded,
I think, about 11 or 12.
Q. When you say you purchased ten but you recorded 11 or 12,
how did you record more than you bought?
A. Well, I had access to some other sites that I didn't have
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to sign up for.
Q. How did that happen?
A. During this investigation I had basically started talking
with another individual in an undercover capacity who was using
this particular service, and he wanted to show me basically
what he liked as far as what kind of age-type child he liked,
and he gave me his password and screen name to some sites.
Q. So using his password you went to two more sites?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Where was that individual located?
A. He was in Canada.
Q. Okay. How were you communicating with him?
A. Through e-mail, via the internet.
Q. Now, where was all this video recording taking place?
Where were you when you were doing this?
A. In my office in Dallas, Texas.
Q. Okay. And so you videotaped -- Can you tell us the names
of the sites that you bought or even used this other fellow's
password to gain access to? What are the names of those sites?
A. I have them written down. I don't have them memorized.
Q. That's fine. If you want to refresh your memory.
A. The sites that I have documented were Lolita World.
Q. Lolita World?
A. Yes.
Q. By the way, what is "Lolita"?
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A. Lolita comes from an old, old movie made a while back
called Lolita, and it was basically -- It's a key word for
people that like child pornography, pedophiles, or whatever.
Lolita means a small girl, underage girl. And that's what this
movie depicted. There was a reenactment of it just recently.
But when you hear Lolita World or Lolita out there in the web,
so to speak, that's the key word for small children.
Q. Okay. I interrupted you. I'm sorry. You were about to
tell us what sites you bought.
A. I have Lolita World, a site that was called Lolita
Hardcore/Fucking Little Kids, Blackcat Lolita, Children of God,
Children Forced to Porn, Just Grow Up, Child Rape, Lolita's
Land, Children Playground, Innocent Lolita, Fantastic Site, and
Special Site.
Q. And did you videotape all of those sites?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Okay. And that's what's about 30 or 40 hours you say?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And after you videotaped, what did you do?
Was there some other way to capture or memorialize this
evidence?
A. Well, after making a few recordings, again, I was, at that
particular time, using a 56K modem, which is real slow, a
regular telephone line. In viewing some of the tapes after I
recorded, some of the tapes were good as far as looking at the
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
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pictures, but I noticed that some of the text was kind of
grainy and you really couldn't read it very well.
And I was informed that there was some software out there
that could actually take a web site from the internet and you
can capture it, put it on your hard drive; and when you're
offline you can look at the site without being online. And
that was a trademark, registered software program, that I
purchased called Web Buddy. That was just the name of it.
Q. And did you use that Web Buddy to go in and capture those
very sites that you've just told us about?
A. Yes. You would just bring the program up and you would
type in the URL address.
Q. Whoa, whoa, whoa. What's "URL" for those of us that don't
know computers?
A. That's an acronym for basically a registry of locater for
all the domain names, all the web sites. The friendly user
name would be www.disneyland.com. Your URL address, that's it.
Q. So that's just an address, then.
A. Right.
Q. Say address.
A. I typed in the address on the Web Buddy, click start, and
as you're online, it actually goes out there to that site. It
basically pulls that site off the internet, and sometimes,
depending on how big the site is, it could take just a few
minutes, sometimes it could take 20 or 30 minutes as it's going
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and capturing all the pictures, all the banners, all the
advertisements, all the hyperlinks.
Q. What's a hyperlink?
A. A hyperlink is just a quick access point. You might have
computers where if you put your mouse clicker over a certain
word, you'll see the pointer change to a hand. You click on it
and that will take you to that site. Those are hyperlinks.
Q. So it's a link to another site?
A. Yes. Or it could be a link to another picture or
whatever.
Q. And what's a banner?
A. A banner is -- what I would just basically say like your
regular, as you go down the highway, looking at your
billboards. They're just advertisements. They're called
banners. And you can click on a banner, which is more or less
a hyperlink, also, click on that banner advertisement, and it
will take you to that particular page that was advertising.
And usually on these particular sites they were just
advertisements for more of these type sites.
Q. Okay. So after you did that videotaping kind of thing and
then you did the Web Buddy, what did you do with the Web Buddy?
Or, by the way, did you name that software thing that you were
just talking about, Web Buddy, or did I just do it?
A. That's their name. That's their trademark name.
Q. All right.
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A. The Web Buddy, after each site, after downloading it, I
preserved it on a disk, a CD. When you use the Web Buddy, it
takes the date and time, how many minutes it took to download
it, and it puts everything on that web site in nice little
folders that you can look at later on. Like I say, you can
click on a folder with all the pictures. You can click on a
folder of all the banners. You can just sit there and read the
text later on without being online all the time.
Q. And so you Web Buddied, then, all these same sites that
you videotaped, essentially.
A. I Web Buddied all the sites except Innocent Lolita.
Q. Okay. And you have hours and hours and hours of pictures
on these Web Buddies?
A. Oh, yes.
Q. Okay. Were you working in connection with anybody else
while you were doing all this, Detective Nelson? Were you
working by yourself, or did you have some other agents helping
you?
A. Basically from my office, I did all of the work from
there.
Q. Were you sharing the information as you were finding it
out, were you sharing any of the information with other agents?
A. Yes. I was in constant contact with Postal Inspector Bob
Adams. There are some Customs people that were contacted.
Q. Some FBI people?
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NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 163
A. FBI.
Q. All right. Let me show you what's marked as Government's
Exhibit SN-A-1.
MS. MOORE: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. What is that, SN-A-1?
A. This is a VHS videotape that I recorded on April the 28th,
1999.
Q. What date? I'm sorry.
A. April the 28th, 1999.
Q. And is that videotape of which site, do you know?
A. It's landslide.com and Lolita World.
Q. Okay. That's the first tape that you described?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Have you had a chance before coming in this
courtroom today to look at that tape and actually watch it?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Has it been altered or deleted or, you know, monkeyed with
in any fashion?
A. No, it has not.
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, I would offer Government's
Exhibit SN-A-l.
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NELSON - VOIR DIRE - BALL VOL II, 164
THE COURT: Hearing no objection -
MR. BALL: Your Honor, I rose to make my objection.
May I take the witness briefly on voir dire?
THE COURT: You may.
MR. BALL: Thank you.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MR. BALL:
Q. Detective Nelson, Government's Exhibit SN-A-1, I think you
indicated that's the video capture you made, correct, sir?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And I believe you indicated there was some problem or
difficulty with the quality of being able to read certain
matters that were captured on the tape; is that right, sir?
A. I wasn't satisfied or particularly liked the way it showed
up after recording. It's like you take a videotape and record
over and over and over. It didn't look as good as it was on
the screen.
Q. All right. Now, on the content of it, it captures not
only the site, the pictures you're depicting, but also the
information your computer is receiving back that gives the
address of where you actually are; is that right?
A. It's showing everything. Whatever is on your screen is
what's on the videotape, because it's basically showing on the
TV set where you play it back, that's your computer screen.
It's showing the linkup, the download bar going across the
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NELSON - VOIR DIRE - BALL VOL II, 165
bottom. It's showing the world wide web spinning around that
you're on line and things like that.
Q. All right. And, in fact, you talked about something
called a URL or an address that you can type in that takes you
somewhere?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And is that information, indicating where you are on the
internet or the web, depicted after you get to a site? Does it
show where you are somewhere printed out?
A. When you type in -- usually what you type in, and then it
takes you through a bunch of links and actually puts up the
address where you actually reside to, usually up in that same
block.
Q. All right. And on the government's exhibit that's in
front of you, SN-A-1, can you read or determine, is it
sufficiently -- is the quality sufficient to be able to
determine what the sites are?
A. Some of them are and some of them it's really hard. I
mean, T knew because I'm the one that made them. But as far as
actually looking at them, some of them are kind of hard to
read.
Q. All right. So there may be some images and sites that
we're just not going to be able to determine what the address
is where we are.
A. Well, the images are perfect. As far as the text, some of
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the text might be kind of grainy or blurred. It's just that
that's the technology I had to work with at that time.
Q. All right. And the Web Buddy, I assume, that captures
these sites, you can see much clearer.
A. Yes, it's much better.
Q. All right.
MR. BALL: Thank you, sir.
Judge, we -- Or, I'm sorry.
MR. HEISKELL: Judge I have a couple of questions on
voir dire if I may as well.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. HEISKELL: Thank you.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. Detective Nelson, the URL, the address you talked about,
that's the address that appears above the image at the top
portion of the screen itself; is that correct?
A. Well, it's basically an address block, for lack of a
better term. It's not above an image or anything. It's
usually blank. When you bring your computer up online, usually
a browser comes up first, whether it be AOL or whatever. But
you type in, in the blank space, and then that basically, your
computer goes out and searches where that place is. Then it
brings it up on your computer.
Q. What I was trying, I guess, to get at, is that appears,
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that block part, appears above the image where you are,
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, there's another address block, if you will, that
should also appear if you have your mouse scrolling over
certain banners or other links; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that would be at the bottom of the screen itself.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And if your mouse goes over a particular banner, it would
show the address for that particular, if you will, site, at the
bottom in that particular block.
A. In most cases it does. It will say www whatever. And
sometimes it might be an e-mail address.
Q. And what we're trying to determine is, on the videotape,
which is SN-A-1, does it clearly show the addresses, not only
at the top block for where you are, but also the addresses at
the bottom as to when you scroll the mouse over the particular
links. Does it show those addresses?
A. It shows both of them, but as far as if you're saying are
they clear.
Q. Yes, are you able to read them, I guess, is what I'm
trying to ask.
A. Sometimes you can and sometimes you can't.
Q. Now, I think you told us you recall this yourself because
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
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you were actually at the computer screen where you could
clearly read the addresses yourself, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you make any notations as to every time you went to a
particular site and note the URL address or even the lower
block address going over the banner?
A. Every time that I did go to a site, I did use another
program to basically track where that site was. I used a
VisualRoute, and it basically mapped from my computer through
all the hops and blocks that it goes to and where it actually
resides to, or it resolves that. And it would show me what
that address was.
Q. Is that on the videotape?
A. Some of them are.
Q. Is that on the SN-A-1 videotape?
A. I think it might be on the first one where I actually did
go do a VisualRoute and showed the mapping.
Q. The first one is SN-A-l, or is there another one?
A. There's a bunch of videos, and I'm not really actually
sure which ones would actually show that VisualRoute.
Q. And you talked about the technology at the time you did
this, and you did this when?
A. April -- I started April 28th, 1999.
Q. A little over a year ago.
A. Yes, sir.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - VOIR DIRE - HEISKELL VOL II, 169
MR. BALL: Your Honor, we would object to SN-A-l,
government's exhibit, under Rule 402 as to relevance and Rule
403, quality of it per Detective Nelson's testimony. We're not
going to be able to know if we're looking at the picture,
looking at the address information where we are. Its
prejudicial effect substantially outweighs any probative value.
MR. HEISKELL: The additional objection, Your Honor,
would be under Rule 1002, Federal Rules of Evidence, concerning
the original being required. Here we have a copy of a copy, if
I'm understanding the detective correctly, and as a result the
videotape that we have would not be able to clearly show
distinctively for the jury and for counsel the particular
addresses that show where the web sites are and we would
object.
THE COURT: Response to objections.
MS. MOORE: Well, Judge, it's certainly relevant
evidence. It's what this case is about. So as far as
relevancy goes, it's clearly relevant.
It's definitely probative, and it's more probative than it
is prejudicial. And what was the last objection? The last
objection was it's not an original. Well, it is -- The
original is what he saw live, and this is a copy of what he saw
live. And there's no way you can bring the original in here.
It's gone, so it's the best evidence that we have, Judge.
THE COURT: Objections are overruled. It's admitted.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 170
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, may I publish SN-A-1.
THE COURT: You may.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Detective Nelson, have we narrowed down what we're going
to publish here to the jury to about ten minutes of this first
tape?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And this would be SN-A-1.
(Government's Exhibit SN-A-1 begins playing.)
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. What are we seeing right there, Detective Nelson?
A. Basically I'm at the site.
Q. Is that the home page?
A. You saw my house click over a site -- a word called KeyZ,
and this is going through and advertising what KeyZ is,
basically.
Q. So that was the home page of Landslide?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And what are we seeing there, Detective Nelson?
A. Basically it's just showing what their guarantee is, what
the customer gets, if you're a webmaster, what the webmaster
gets. And now I'm just clicking on the other side of this site
called AVS, and this is another page in the Landslide home
page. And you can see the banners, the different colors of
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banners. If you click on any of those banners, it would take
you. . .
Q. Does that say "Click Here For Child Porn"?
A. Yes. And that's a large banner. If you click that
particular banner, you would be taken to an advertisement page
to get a child pornography site.
Q. And does it advertise the adult classifieds underneath
that?
A. Yes, adult classifieds. Again, that's a hyperlink that if
you would put your mouse over it, you could click on it and go
to that section called adult classifieds.
Q. What did you click on there?
A. This is bringing up the first page of "Click Here For
Child Porn" and it's basically giving you a warning that this
is, you know, the worst site you've ever seen, the most
controversial site. As you scroll down, there is more verbiage
on what this site provides.
You see the dark blue banner, the bar at the bottom,
that's actually my computer loading up the site. And being
back then, since I was only on a phone line, it was really
slow, which is your normal process on the internet.
Q. Are you referring to this?
A. Yes. And this is where I first got the site Lolita World.
Q. I believe you have a laser pointer up there in the event
that you need to refer to something.
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NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 172
A. I'm just clicking on that particular banner there, "Click
Here to Enter Lolita World." This is what I was saying
earlier, this is the front page advertisement of Lolita World.
It gives you a few teaser pictures. It tells you what's in the
site, but if you try to enter the site it tells you, you can't
because you're not a member yet. You haven't bought the site.
Q. You haven't paid yet.
A. Exactly. This is what's in the site. Erotic innocence,
angels. And you can't read it but there are some hyperlinks
on galleries: Japanese, Naughty Lolita. That's, again,
advertisements of what's actually in the site. A real
hardcore gallery. Private collector's series. Early age
lesbians.
And these banners down here also at the bottom are also in
the site telling you what you can get. Another advertisement
for "Click Here," and there are some other banners for other
advertisements. And where I'm clicking now it says "Members
Entrance."
Q. Now, have you paid yet?
A. I think I have to pay a little bit later on.
Q. So is that image of that child nude spread out there, is
that just a teaser?
A. Yes. And this is the advertisement of where you actually
have to pay your money to get the site. It's a site called
KeyZ, which is part of Landslide. In other words, whatever
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NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 173
site you go to that you bought, you have to go to the KeyZ web
site first, sign up, and then it would take you to the site
that you purchased.
Q. Did it have an image next to the KeyZ of a young boy and a
young girl -- with the young girl performing oral sex?
A. Yes. Right now I'm at the KeyZ site. I'm typing in my
user name. I'll type in my password, I hit log-in, and now it
acknowledges that I am a member or have purchased a site. And
now I can get into the pictures, the hyperlinks that will take
me all into the back pages of the site. I can see everything
on the site now.
Q. No more teasers. You're now into the site.
A. Yes. I've paid my money. I'm actually going to the site
now. You can see up at the top, right-hand corner the globe is
spinning around. It shows that I'm online.
Q. What does that say where your hand is?
A. That's it right up there. In the site there is also other
banners that are advertising other sites that you can purchase,
also. You click on those sites, you'll get that first page
again, the teaser page is what I call it. But to get each of
these sites you had to actually go in there again through KeyZ
and pay $29.95, or whatever the person wanted for that
particular site, give your credit card, whatever password you
want to use, and then you would get the site.
I'm actually going to the main page now. Again, it will
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NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 174
take a little while to load up. And what it's doing now is
loading up the thumbnail images.
Q. And how do you know it's loading it?
A. Well, I can see that dark blue right there where I'm
pointing right now. It's showing that it's loading up.
Depending on how big the page is, sometimes it takes a little
while longer. I've got some real fast internet speed now with
the DSL line, which is real fast now, so if I would have had
that back then I would have been done a lot quicker.
Now I just clicked on one of the hyperlinks that's going
to go now -- to bring up some thumbnail pages.
Q. Now, what would you do with the thumbnails?
A. Well, the thumbnails, you can bring them all up and look
at them all at one time, but being that they're only thumbnail
size, you click on them and they will come up to whatever their
size is.
Q. Do you know what that flashing ClicZ is that keeps
flashing on the screen next to "Click Here For Child Porn"?
A. It's just another banner exchange-type program, I believe.
It's just a click that goes back to Landslide. Those images
there are thumbnails. At the bottom of that, there's text
telling what the name of the file is. It will tell you what
size it is.
Q. Now, did you just click on a thumbnail?
A. I just clicked on one of the images, and it's going to
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NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 175
load up the picture. Again, it's going to load up the picture.
Again, it's taking time because of the regular phone line modem
that I'm using, and what's happening is the picture is actually
loading up underneath the banner there. It's finished now and
now I'll scroll and I can view the whole picture.
Q. How old would you say that child was?
A. I would say six or seven years old, prepubescent.
(Government's Exhibit SN-A-1 stops playing.)
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Now, that was just a --
A. A very small --
Q. -- small showing of how many hours of videotape on that
particular site?
A. Probably six hours of recording.
Q. Okay. And you said the Web Buddy was a better quality?
A. Yes.
Q. Let me show you, Detective Nelson, what's marked as
Government's Exhibit SN-A-2 and ask you if you recognize that?
A. Yes.
Q. What is it?
A. It's a CD.
Q. Is it of the Web Buddy?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it the Web Buddy of the site we just saw?
A. Yes, KeyZ and Landslide.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 176
Q. Now, have you had a chance to look at that before coming
over here to court today?
A. Yes.
Q. And is it as -- in the same condition as it was when you
Web Buddied it yourself and put it on the CD?
A. Yes.
Q. And does it fairly and accurately show what you captured
when you downloaded that onto that CD?
A. Yes.
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, I would offer SN-A-2.
MR. BALL: Judge, the same objections previously
articulated as to SN-A-l.
THE COURT: Overruled. It's admitted.
MS. MOORE: And, Your Honor, may I have permission to
publish?
THE COURT: Granted.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Did you capture the web page that -- look at SN-A-2.1.
A. Yes.
Q. And is that the hard copy or printed copy of Landslide's
home page?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And that was captured on the Web Buddy as well as
the VHS?
A. Yes.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 177
MS. MOORE: And, Your Honor, I would go ahead and
offer SN-A-2.1.
THE COURT: Admitted.
(Government's Exhibit SN-A-2 is published.)
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Now, it's not scrolling, so you can actually tell us -
A. This is exactly what Web Buddy does. This is basically a
live shot that just captured the home page as it is.
Q. Okay. Tell us what it says at the bottom of Landslide,
Inc.
A. Well, again, those are hyperlinks. "About us," if you
would click on that it would bring you to a page that would
tell you about Landslide. If you click on "AVS," it would tell
you what AVS does. If you click on keyz.com, it would tell you
what KeyZ was.
The other two sites, if my recollection is right, weren't
up and running then so when you click on it, it would say that
it was under construction type thing. But they were two other
sites that Landslide was basically giving you access to.
Q. Okay. Now, in your book up there, Detective Nelson, would
you please look at SN-A-2.2. Was that something that you
captured on the Web Buddy as well?
A. Yes.
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, I would offer -- If I didn't
offer 2.1, I would offer that now and I would also offer
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 178
SN-A-2.2.
THE COURT: 2.1 you did offer and it was admitted.
2.2 - -
MR. HEISKELL: No objection.
THE COURT: -- is admitted.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Look on the screen here, Detective Nelson, at this exhibit,
SN-A-2.2, and tell us what that company profile is, or tell us
what that exhibit is.
A. It's a Landslide, Inc. It's basically telling them their
company, their background company information, their business
and products and services. Their market. Basically it's just
an advertisement of their business, their business model, what
their projections are going to be. Things like that.
Q. It tells you -- On the front page of the Landslide page,
it talks about looking.net and bad card, I believe.
A. Yes.
Q. Would you describe those business ventures as well?
A. Yes.
Q. What does it say "the market" is?
A. They're talking about the market is very large.
Projection sales online are at a certain dollar amount,
projecting into the year of year 2002.
Q. What is the dollar amount that they're projecting of
making?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 179
A. They're looking at the market as far as a $425 billion
market in the year 2002. Up from 32.4 billion from last year,
especially the market overall.
Q. Okay. Detective Nelson, in your book there flip to
SN-A-2.3, and I ask you if you can identify that exhibit. It
should have been just the very next one.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Is that something that you downloaded on the disk
from Web Buddy?
A. Yes.
MS. MOORE: I would offer, Your Honor, SN-A-2.3
MR. HEISKELL: No objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: 2.3 is admitted.
MS. MOORE: Okay. May I publish it? Okay.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Can you tell us what this exhibit says, Detective Nelson?
We'll see if we can make the first half a little bigger and
then maybe the second half a little bigger so everybody can
read along.
A. This is a customer -- basically a guarantee to the
customer that if you use Landslide and KeyZ this is what they
can basically promise you.
Q. Okay.
MS. MOORE: And the second half of it, so we can all
see the second half of that exhibit.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 180
THE COURT: When you turn away from the microphone --
Oh, were you giving a direction?
MS. MOORE: Yes.
THE COURT: I'm sorry. I thought you were asking a
question.
A. And everything that's in blue there is a hyperlink that if
you would click on it, it would tell you about that particular
link.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. A11 right. Would you please look at the next exhibit,
SN-A-2.4. Look in your book. Can you identify that exhibit?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that something you downloaded as well?
A. Yes. This is a continuation of their advertisement of
what they provide. This particular exhibit is what you would
get as an owner of a web site. This is what Landslide or KeyZ
would do for you.
Q. So you were downloading all this all about the company
called Landslide.
A. Yes.
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, I would offer SN-A-2.4.
MR. BALL: No objection.
THE COURT: Admitted.
MS. MOORE: I would publish that in the same manner
of expanding the first half and then expanding the second half.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 181
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. And this is describing what, Detective Nelson?
A. It's basically what a webmaster or owner of a site would
get by using KeyZ as their signup verification page. It's easy
to set up. There's a profit margin. You have total control of
your site, and it gives you a category. As a webmaster you can
say how much you can charge for each of your sites. And
there's a schedule of how you can -- examples of what you can
charge, and there could be a combination of those.
MS. MOORE: Let's scroll down to the bottom of
that.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. What is that testimonial there? Would you please read the
testimonial, Detective Nelson.
A. Yes. Testimonial. "Are the stats" --
Q. The print is a little hard to see here, so if you could
just read it for us.
A. "Are the stats for keyz.com are correct? I am asking
this because I was totally amazed that the signups for
lolitasex.com (account: xes) increased by a factor of 4
since changing to the keyz.com service. If this is really
true then I will immediately move the next site to
keyz.com as well."
And the answer, "Yes, they are, and thanks."
Q. Would you please look at SN-A-2.5.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 182
A. Yes.
Q. Can you identify that?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that something you downloaded on the disk from Web
Buddy?
A. Yes.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-A-2.5.
MR. BALL: No objection.
THE COURT: 2.5 is admitted.
A. This is a check that if you put your user name and your
password to any site that you purchased, you can hit the log-in
button and it will tell you what the status of that account is.
It will tell you, you have 15 days left. It will tell you that
it's expired. You can basically track your sites, when they're
going to run out.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. So is this a service for the subscriber?
A. Yes.
Q. So they can keep up with how many days they've got left on
what site?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Will you look at SN-A-2.6. Do you recognize that
document?
A. Yes.
Q. And is that something you downloaded onto a disk from Web
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 183
Buddy?
A. Yes.
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, I would offer SN-A-2.6.
MR. BALL: No objection.
THE COURT: 2.6 is admitted.
We've been in here about an hour and a half. Is there a
stopping place?
MS. MOORE: Any time, Judge, because he's going to be
on here a little longer.
THE COURT: Let's take a break. Let's try to confine
it to about 10 minutes so we can get a good bit of testimony in
before the noon break.
(Court in recess, 10:40 a.m. until 10:55 a.m.)
THE COURT: You may proceed.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Detective Nelson, we were about to publish SN-A-2.6. Do
you recognize that document?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you summarize for us what that document is.
A. Basically it's just a log file that this particular site
and most of your webmasters have recording the hits on their
site, which page has the most hits. This particular deal is
keyz.com, which sites had the most hits, the date and time that
it was hit. When I say "hit," a person accessing the site.
Q. So they were keeping up with -- Was this a daily log?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 184
A. Yes. Usually in the industry it runs every day.
Q. So it's keeping up with which sites are getting the most
traffic.
A. Yes.
Okay. Would you please look, sir, at the next exhibit, SN-A-2.7. Do
you recognize that document?
A. Yes.
Q. And is that something you downloaded onto the disk from
Web Buddy?
A. Yes.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-A-2.7, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: No objection.
THE COURT: 2.7 is admitted.
A. This is from the site --
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Wait a minute. It's not on the screen yet.
A. Sorry.
Q. It's SN-A-2.7.
And what is this document?
A. This is from the Web Buddy off of the keyz.com site, the
Landslide page. It's basically your income generator, talking
about banner swaps, banner sites, things like that.
Q. And who is this from? Whose document is this?
A. It was a -- It was written by person at the top headed by
Jason DeFillippo, head programmer, and it was basically -- He's
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 185
telling you how you should be able to use your banners and
banner swapping and this is what KeyZ uses as your income
generator, how you can generate your income by using them.
Q. And on the second page of that document, the third line
from the bottom, starting with "When posting"?
A. "When posting advertising images make sure you pick
images that are representative of what your site has to
offer. If you are a teen site don't post pictures of
asians. Also make sure your URL is prominent in your
image. If your images generally don't have logo's or
URL's on them you need to make some just for posting."
Q. And why wouldn't a person post images of Asians?
A. Usually in the industry, the Asian, especially the Asian
females, look young.
Q. So it's hard to tell their age?
A. It's hard to tell their ages, and a lot of times you're
actually taking adult Asian females to make look young.
Q. So this is an explanation to people who want to make
banners on the dos and don'ts.
A. Yes.
Q. Let me show you SN-A-2.8 and ask you if you recognize that
document?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And what is that?
A. It's a Web Buddy take-down from the KeyZ site. It's the
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 186
KeyZ usage agreement.
Q. And is that something you downloaded on a disk from Web
Buddy?
A. Yes.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-A-2.8, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: No objection.
THE COURT: Admitted.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. So it's a KeyZ usage agreement, then?
A. Yes.
Q. So this is the do's and don'ts from Landslide to the
subscriber.
A. Yes.
Q. Let me show you the next exhibit, which is Exhibit
SN-A-2.9, and ask you if you recognize that?
A. Yes.
Q. And what is it?
A. This is the page of the signup for the site Lolita World.
Q. So it's a sample member signup from Lolita World?
A. Yes.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-A-2.9, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: No objection.
THE COURT: 2.9 is admitted.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Now, this is the information that you, the subscriber,
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entered onto the member signup?
A. Yes.
Q. And what information does that contain?
A. Well, you notice at the top here, this is where you can
turn off if you want your credit card to be automatically
renewed. You can check yes or no. Then you start with your
name, address, state, county, your e-mail address. You choose
your own password. You put your credit card number down, when
it expires, and whether it's a Visa, MasterCard, or American
Express. And then you hit "submit" and it goes to the company
to verify it. And then because of your e-mail address that you
provide, they send you an almost instantaneous e-mail saying
that you have been accepted, your credit card has been charged,
and you can now access the site.
Q. What's underneath that signup page? Can you read that?
A. It's a little -- Basically when you sign up for a KeyZ
account, your credit card will be charged by Landslide, Inc.
The address you enter must match the billing address of your
credit card.
Q. And when you look at the next exhibit, SN-A-2.10. Do you
recognize that document?
A. Yes.
Q. And is that something you downloaded off the Web Buddy?
A. Yes.
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, I would offer SN-A-2,10.
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NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 188
MR. BALL: No objection.
THE COURT: SN-A-2.10 is admitted.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Can you tell us what this document is about?
A. It's basically what I would categorize as like a
trouble-shooting document. It tells you when contacting them
make sure you always use your user name. It tells you where
your money goes. It tells you how does KeyZ works.
Q. Where does the money go?
A. Well, the previous postings, part of the money goes to the
webmaster and part of the money Landslide takes.
Q. I would ask you to look at SN-A-2.11. Do you recognize
that document?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that something you downloaded to a disk from Web Buddy?
A. Yes.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-A-2.11, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: No objection.
THE COURT: Admitted.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Now, what is this document, Detective Nelson?
A. This is a screen capture of the banner, "Click Here Child
Porn" that's on the home page of Landslide.
Q. Okay. And it's on Landslide's home page?
A. Yes.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 189
Q. Okay. Is it on AVS or KeyZ, or just the home page?
A. It's on their home page. In fact, that banner showed up
quite frequently in a bunch of places.
Q. Now, you see the "Click Here For Child Porn." What other
banners are on there?
A. One underneath is -- Well, above it is the ClicZ.
Underneath is a banner, adult classifieds. Well, it's not a
banner. It's really a hyperlink.
Q. Okay. Look at the next exhibit, SN-A-2.12. Do you
recognize that?
A. Yes.
Q. What is that exhibit?
A. This is a copy of the program that I used called
VisualRoute. It basically maps a URL address or the address of
the site or the IP, internet protocol, address and shows where
it actually resolves to. When I first started the
investigation, there was different web sites, and being that I
saw that Landslide and KeyZ were web sites, I did a visual
route on those particular sites and it basically shows where it
resides to.
Q. So this particular --
MS. MOORE: Well, let me offer this exhibit.
MR. BALL: No objection.
MS. MOORE: It's SN-A-2.12.
THE COURT: 2.12 is admitted.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 190
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Now, explain what this VisualRoute does.
A. You start off with the site. You type in the address.
What I typed in was landslide.com. I typed in
www.landslide.com. That is the user friendly name of a site,
but the actual wording of the site is that right there. It's
called the internet protocol address, your IP address. That's
basically, for simple definition, a phone number of that site.
So when I typed in www.landslide.com, it started tracking all
the IP addresses, all the hops of phone lines and servers that
it went through to eventually end up in Fort Worth, Texas, to
show that Landslide Productions, it was the network, and the
node name was landslide.com.
Q. Would that be like caller ID, if I want to know who's
calling me? Look on caller ID and it says so and so. It tells
you who's calling or who's hosting that, where that resides, as
you say?
A. It could be something like that. It's basically -- It's
almost like a -- Well, it's a visual route. It's a trace of
your computer going out of the internet, finding where that
site is, shaking hands with it and saying here I am, and it
shows where it goes to.
Q. Okay. Let's look at the next exhibit, SN-A-2.13. Do you
recognize that document?
A. Yes.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 191
Q. Is that something you downloaded onto a disk from Web
Buddy?
A. No. This is basically from the VisualRoute information.
Q. It's part of the VisualRoute?
A. Yes. One the unique aspects of VisualRoute on the very
bottom where it said Landslide Productions or landslide.com,
you put your mouse over those two statements, you click on it
and it would show up who registered that site, where it is, who
the contact people are, and things like that.
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, I would offer SN-A-2.13.
MR. BALL: No objection.
THE COURT: Admitted.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. And so who does it say Landslide is registered to?
A. It's Landslide, Inc. It gives you the PO box of an
address in Fort Worth, Texas.
Q. What is that PO box in Fort Worth, Texas?
A. PO Box 936, Fort Worth, Texas. Zip code 76101.
Q. And is that address here in Fort Worth, Texas, is that in
the Northern District of Texas?
A. Yes.
Q. What else does it tell you?
A. It tells what the domain name is, which is landslide.com.
It will tell you who the administrative contact is.
Q. And who is the administrative contact?
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NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 192
A. Tom Reedy.
Q. Does it give you Tom Reedy's e-mail address?
A. Yes.
Q. And what is his e-mail address?
A. Houdini@landslide.com would be the e-mail address, a
contact phone number, the technical contact if there is one
available for some sites. Here it is a Thomas Hughes, which is
his address -- or e-mail address and his contact phone number.
And then, again, the last item would be a billing contact that
you could contact whoever owns the site. Again, it's Tom Reedy
with his e-mail address and his phone number, contact phone
number.
MS. MOORE: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Let me show you what is marked as Government's Exhibit
SN-B-1 and ask you if you recognize that exhibit?
A. Yes.
Q. What is that?
A. It's the original VHS tape that I recorded on April the
29th, 1999.
Q. So that would be the second videotape?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell us what web sites that recorded.
A. It's finishing up some of the sites, Fucking Little Kids
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NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 193
or also called Lolita Hardcore, and Blackcat Lolita Photo
Series.
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, I would offer Government's
Exhibit SN-B-1.
MR. BALL: We would make the same objection as made
to Government's Exhibit SN-A-1.
THE COURT: Overruled. It's admitted.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. And, again, this videotape has hours of information on it?
A. Yes.
Q. And images on it? And have we narrowed it down to just a
couple of minutes to display?
A. Yes.
MS. MOORE: May I publish that, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
(Government's Exhibit SN-B-1 is published.)
A. Now, this particular series is the clicking on the banner,
or the hyperlink, adult classifieds from the home page.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. So what we're seeing now is the classifieds?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Will we have a better image of that later?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay.
A. And on this Landslide it's their advertisement, adult
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 194
classifieds. These are all classified ads, bulletin boards, if
you will. And at the very top it will come back with a "Click
Here For Child Porn."
Q. Those adult classifieds that we just saw, will you
describe to the jury what the adult classifieds is?
A. Basically it's a free posting of individuals that could
put an ad up. All of these ads that I showed were people
wanting to trade child pornography, wanted to have actual
sexual conduct with children, wanting to trade passwords of
KeyZ accounts. To contact these people it was really unique,
that when you saw a posting of an advertisement, if you'd just
click on it with your mouse, it would automatically take you to
that person's e-mail address and you could just write them.
It's basically just free posting. If you saw an ad you liked,
you clicked on it, wrote the guy or whoever was on the other
end and start talking to them that way.
MS. MOORE: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. May I show, Detective Nelson, what's marked as
Government's Exhibit SN-B-2 and ask if you recognize that?
A. Yes.
And what is that?
A. It's a CD Web Buddy of Blackcat Lolita.
Q. Okay. And is that the Web Buddy that you personally took?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 195
A. Yes.
Q. A11 right. And you've had a chance to see that and view
it before coming into the courtroom today?
A. Yes.
Q. Has it been altered, deleted, or messed with in any form
or fashion?
A. No.
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, I would offer SN-B-2.
MR. BALL: Same objections as made to SN-A-1 and
other exhibits.
THE COURT: Overruled. Admitted.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. And while we're at it, let me show you the next exhibit
that goes with that, SN-B-2.1, and ask you to take a look at
that document. Do you see it there?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that something that's downloaded off the Web Buddy that
we just introduced?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And what is that?
A. This is the first page of the Blackcat Lolita Photo
Series.
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, I would offer SN-B-2-1.
MR. BALL: No objection.
THE COURT: Admitted.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 196
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Now, is that what you just described as the home page of
Blackcat Lolita Photo Series?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, what did you do when you went to that home page?
A. Up here you can see it's the banner for the Blackcat
Lolita Photo Series. This says "Exclusive Member's Area." All
of these are hyperlinks to galleries or pages of pictures. You
click on the first one, you bring up a huge page of thumbnails
and you would go through the thumbnails at your leisure, you
know, click on one and make it bigger, or whatever.
MS. MOORE: Can we see the second page of that
exhibit?
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. And what are we seeing on this page?
A. Again, you're seeing an advertisement, "Click Here For
Child Porn," hyperlink for adult classifieds, ClicZ banner.
Q. Now, where had you seen those before?
A. On the home page of Landslide, on pages of advertisements
for other child pornography sites, on the adult classifieds
page.
Q. Let me show you what's marked as SN-B-2.2 and ask if you
can identify that document.
A. Yes.
Q. Is that something you downloaded?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 197
A. It's a visual route that I had captured.
Q. So you did a visual route of Blackcat Lolita Photo Series
just like you did the other?
A. Yes.
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, I would offer SN-B-2-2.
MR. BALL: No objection.
THE COURT: 2.2 is admitted.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. And where does it show this site resided?
A. It starts out -- This is their IP address, their internet
protocol address, with the user name www.blackcatlolita. I
started here where my computer is and it shows the last hop was
at Bell Atlantic, which was Reston, Virginia.
Q. So basically this VisualRoute is taking you from Dallas to
Houston to Washington D.C., et cetera, and finally to show it's
finally resting in Reston, Virginia.
A. Yes.
Q. And that's at an ISP?
A. Yes, internet service provider. Bell Atlantic is also a
phone company that offers internet accessibility.
Q. Let me show you what's marked as SN-B-3 and ask you if you
recognize that document?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Is that a document you received from Landslide after
purchasing Blackcat Lolita Photo Series?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 198
A. Yes, it is.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-B-3, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: No objection.
THE COURT: SN-B-3 is admitted.
MS. MOORE: And if we could enhance the midsection
there.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. What is this message that -- Is this an e-mail you got
back from Landslide?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. What does this message say?
A. It shows that the subject is the new account and it's this
date and time. It was sent to me, or my undercover persona,
and it says that the subject is new account, thanking me for
choosing KeyZ. It says to save this message or write it down
somewhere. It gives me my user name, what my password is, and
it tells me that my account has been activated and it will
remain valid for 30 days with no further charges. And it's
only good for Blackcat Lolita Photo Series.
Q. And who did you pay your money to, to gain access to
Blackcat Lolita Photo Series?
A. Landslide.
Q. And the VisualRoute showed you that?
A. Yes.
Q. Let me show you the next exhibit, SN-B-4, and ask you if
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - VOIR DIRE - BALL VOL II, 199
you recognize that exhibit?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And is that an actual image of child pornography?
A. Yes.
Q. And that's something that you downloaded on your disk from
Web Buddy?
A. Yes.
Q. That's from the web site Blackcat Lolita Photo Series?
A. Yes.
Q. Is this particular image identified in Count 2 of the
indictment and Count 46 of the indictment?
A. Yes.
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, I would offer SN-B-4.
THE COURT: SN-B-4 is admitted.
MR. BALL: I apologize. May I take the witness on
voir dire?
THE COURT: On SN-B-4?
MR. BALL: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes, you may. I withdraw the admission.
MR. BALL: Thank you.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MR. BALL:
Q. Detective Nelson, the Exhibit B-4 is an image, correct,
sir?
A. Yes.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - VOIR DIRE - BALL VOL II, 200
Q. All right. And that was, if I understood you correctly,
you went on the internet, obtained that image through the Web
Buddy process, correct, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. And it was loaded on a CD ROM along with other parts of
the web site, or the whole web site, actually.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. And can you tell, did it preserve the location
where the image was on the internet at the time you saw it?
A. I don't quite understand that.
Q. Well, if you'll look at -- You've got a hard copy in front
of you, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. At the top is there a file designation with an
"E" and some other data?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. That's a name for that image as to where it's
located on the Web Buddy; is that right, sir?
A. No, sir. The way the Web Buddy takes your thumbnails is
the exact way it is on the page of the internet. If you click
open the file of jpgs, it's the same order of all the jpgs that
were on the web site.
Q. All right, sir. I understand that. What I'm getting at is
when you go on the internet at the time you are looking at this
image, B-4, you can look and see where you are. There's
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - VOIR DIRE - BALL VOL II, 201
information on your page, is that right, where you are on the
internet?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. When it is taken and put on the Web Buddy for
preservation, is that same information as to where it came from put
on the Web Buddy?
A. If it's the file name, if that's what you're taking about,
the file name is captured and put with the picture.
Q. As it existed on the internet. A. Yes.
Q. All right. And what was the file name of SN-B-4?
A. It's file://E/BLACKCATLOLITA/blackcat/DOCS/5, and its file
name is bc_002.jpg.
Q. All right, sir. Isn't that, in fact, the name that it was
given by Web Buddy as to where it resides now and not where it
was at the time it was on the internet?
A. Right. I thought that's what you asked.
Q. All right. My question is: Did it preserve -- Do we know
-- Is there anything on Web Buddy that can tell us where SN-B-4
was when it was seen on the internet?
A. At the log file of where the Web Buddy started, it gave
the URL address, the date and time that it started and stopped,
and the file name of that particular image is bc_002.
Q. All right, sir. Do you know whose web site that was on?
Is it documented as to each image on the Web Buddy, or is the
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - VOIR DIRE - BALL VOL II, 202
name changed?
A. It's the Blackcat Lolita Photo Series. That's where the
web site was.
Q. All right. When you're looking at this image on the
internet, if I went on the internet and I was looking at this
image, there would be information on my computer screen that
would tell me where that picture was, what it was called,
correct?
A. To actually do that I think you'd have to put your mouse
over the image, do a right mouse click, do a properties, and it
will tell you that it was at www.blackcatlolita.com and the
file name. That's how they name the files.
Q. All right, sir. Would it not appear in that little white
box that we've seen fairly often on some of the exhibits at the
time you're looking at it? Wouldn't that information be in
that little white box?
A. I'm not sure if it's at the top or at the bottom,
left-hand corner. It might give you the IP address of where
that particular picture was at the time.
Q. Actually, the telephone number for that image would be
either at the top or the bottom somewhere; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And that tells where that image resides at the time you're
looking at it, does it not?
A. Yes.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - VOIR DIRE - BALL VOL II, 203
Q. All right. Is that information kept on Web Buddy so that
we can know where that image was, SN-B-4, at the time it was
captured?
A. I'm not really sure how to answer that question. If
you're pulling up the site and you're pulling up your
thumbnails, Web Buddy takes all the thumbnails and they're in
the same order that they're on the web site. Now, as far as
the names and things like that, I'm not sure what you're
asking, if it's the same place on the internet as it is on Web
Buddy. Web Buddy system takes the pictures, puts them in a
file, puts all your banners in a certain file, puts all your
text documents in a certain file. In fact, if the site were
still up, you could click on a hyperlink of a certain page and
go right to the page.
Q. All right.
A. So in that sense it does capture where the site was at
that particular time.
Q. All right. But you can't tell us what the file name was
on this particular image as it existed on the internet when Web
Buddy captured it; is that right?
A. It's bc_002.
Q. But the rest of the name that's at the top there has been
changed, has it not?
A. Has been changed?
Q. For purposes of filing it into the Web Buddy system.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - VOIR DIRE - BALL VOL II, 204
A. If you would do a right mouse click over this particular
picture, that file://, that is where it resides on that web
site.
Q. All right. Well, the file E is on the CD ROM, is it not?
That's the name where it resides on the CD ROM?
A. Right. That's to capture that particular folder that it's
in. The rest of the document there is the actual address of
the web site and the file name of the picture that it captured.
Q. All right. And who creates that name? Web Buddy?
A. Web Buddy takes -- whoever said what this file name is,
Web Buddy captures that. Web Buddy doesn't name it.
Q. All right. And if at the time you captured an exhibit
like SN-B-4, are you actually physically looking at it, or it's
just automatic, it does it real fast?
A. I'm actually at the site and I type in on the Web Buddy
the address and it's instantaneously or in a matter of minutes.
I can see it going to the pages, page 1, page 2, two deep,
taking all the pages and it runs pretty quick.
Q. It runs substantially faster than the live version we saw
on some of the exhibits?
A. Oh, yes.
MR. BALL: Judge, we would object to SN-B-4. The web
IP address, the telephone number, for it was not captured by
the Web Buddy and it's not properly authenticated.
THE COURT: Overruled. It's admitted.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 205
MS. MOORE: May I publish it, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Now, looking at the indictment, also, Detective Nelson, is that
Count 2 of the indictment as well as Count 46?
A. Yes.
Q. And is that from the Blackcat Lolita Photo Series?
A. Yes.
Q. And it was b_002.jpg (sic).
A. Yes.
Q. What is jpg for those of us that are not computer savvy?
A. That's another acronym. I'd have to defer on the exact
wording of it, but it's a file extension. It's a picture.
Q. It means picture?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, were there other images of child pornography other
than the one we just saw on Blackcat Lolita Photo Series?
A. Yes.
Q. But we just picked one?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay.
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, may I approach the witness?
THE COURT: You may.
BY MS. MOORE:
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 206
Q. May I show you what's been marked as Government's Exhibit
SN-C-2 and ask you if I recognize that CD?
A. Yes.
Q. And is that the CD that you downloaded the Web Buddied
information on?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Okay.
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, I would offer SN-C-2.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the previous exhibit,
Judge.
THE COURT: Overruled, and it's admitted.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Look at the next document there in your book, Detective
Nelson, SN-C-2.1?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that the home page of another web site?
A. Yes.
Q. What's the name of that web site?
A. It's Lolita Hardcore, and the banner reading "Fucking
Little Kids."
Q. Okay. And is that what you downloaded on the CD from that
web site?
A. Yes.
Q. You bought that web site.
A. Yes, I did.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - VOIR DIRE - HEISKELL VOL II, 207
Who did you pay for that web site? Landslide, Inc.
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, I would offer SN-C-2.1.
MR. HEISKELL: May I take him on voir dire briefly?
THE COURT: All right.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. Detective Nelson, you have 2.1 in front of you, is that
correct, in the binder? C-2.1, what the prosecutor just --
A. Yes.
Q. And you see at the top of that document the web address,
the web sites, domain names; is that correct?
A. At the very top top of the page?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes.
Q. And the web site and the domain name is matahari.net?
A. Yes.
Q. And the one I think you may have identified previously is
kintamani.com?
A. Yes, kintamani.com.
Q. And those are actually the web sites where this particular
location can be found, or these images can be found.
A. Yes. You type in kintamani.com, and you basically -- and
just starting the investigation they would tell you, don't
bookmark this page. Bookmark another page to get to these
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - VOIR DIRE - HEISKELL VOL II, 208
sites.
Q. And could you also type in matahari.com and get the same
type of information?
A. Yes.
Q. And nowhere on this document does it appear landslide.com,
the web site for Mr. Reedy; is that correct?
A. On this particular site?
Q. Yes.
A. No.
Q. And there's a page 2 to this particular exhibit, is there
not?
A. Yes.
Q. And you also find the same domain name information,
the web site addresses, the Matahari and the other name?
A. Yes, and some key words that they use as search engines to
pull up these sites.
Q. And would you explain to the jury what a search engine
is?
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, I'm going to have to object.
This is not proper voir dire. It's cross-examination.
MR. HEISKELL: Well, let me make my objection, then,
Judge.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. HEISKELL: We would object under Rule 403 as to
relevance and also Rule 402 in that the matters I gleaned from
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 209
this detective concerning the absence of landslide.com and the
other web addresses of webmasters as not being relevant to this
case.
THE COURT: Response.
MS. MOORE: It is relevant, Your Honor. He said that
he paid landslide.com to get to this document, and if I may,
after it's admitted, if it's admitted, there's a link on the
second page of this document back to Landslide.
THE COURT: I believe you're correct, and the
objection is overruled and it's admitted.
MS. MOORE: May we publish it?
THE COURT: You may.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Who did you say you had to pay?
A. You had to pay Landslide to sign up through the KeyZ site
of Landslide.
Q. All right. Now, tell us what we're seeing when you
purchased this site, which is Lolita Hardcore.
A. This is the page for Fucking Little Kids, which is Lolita
Hardcore. You're in the member's area, and all this down here
in red are the hyperlinks, Hardcore Gallery Number 1 through
12, and you click on the first one and you come up to the first
page of thumbnails of -- a lot of thumbnails that you could
just click on and blow up.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 210
Q. Okay. And let's look at the second page of that
particular exhibit. And what do you see on the second page?
A. These are, again, banners and advertisements on this
particular page that say "Click Here For Child Porn," ClicZ,
adult classifieds.
Q. Where had you seen "Click Here For Child Porn," ClicZ, and
adult classifieds before?
A. They were on all the other sites. They were on the home
page of Landslide, their AVS home page, their adult classified,
Landslide's adult classified's home page.
Q. Look at the next exhibit, sir, which is SN-C-2.2. Can you
identify that exhibit?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Is that something that you downloaded onto the disk
from Web Buddy?
A. Yes.
Q. And is that within this Lolita Hardcore site, or where is
it?
A. This is a capture of the "Child Porn Click Here" on the
adult classifieds section.
Q. So what we saw previously when we saw something like this
was from the VHS tape.
A. Yes.
Q. This is the first Web Buddied capture of that; is that
right?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 211
A. Yes, screen capture of this particular banner.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-C-2.2, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: We would make the same objection as to
SN-B-4.
THE COURT: Overruled. It's admitted.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Now, explain to us what we're seeing in this particular
exhibit.
A. The banner, which is really at the top of the page, "Click
Here For Child Porn," it says click on the ad you're interested
in, for more information, or to reply, right here. So if you
would read this particular ad here, if it interested you, you
see the person's e-mail address up here? You click on the
e-mail address, your browser would make your e-mail system come
up and you could write that person.
Q. And what is that person advertising in the adult
classifieds? Read that for us.
A. On this particular, it says, "I am 15 years old and have
been fucking my 12 year old sister for the last year. Will
trade movies for avi or mpeg or passwords. Thanks."
Q. What's an avi?
A. An avi is basically a short video on the internet.
Q. What's an mpg?
A. It's the same thing. It's a different version of it.
Q. Now, can you look in that address section of this document
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
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and tell us whose address that is up there?
MS. MOORE: Can we enhance that, or is that enhanced
enough?
A. This on your computer, on your browser, it's usually
blank. But if you type in what you want to go to, and this
page pulled up www.landslide.com, Houdini, and this is the
classified section of the HTML code.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Look at the next exhibit, SN-C-2.3. Can you identify that
document?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it another VisualRoute?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Is it a VisualRoute for which web site?
A. The Hardcore Lolita site.
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, I would offer SN-C-2.3
MR. BALL: No objection.
THE COURT: 2.3 is admitted.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. And what does this VisualRoute of this particular Hardcore
Lolita/F'ing Little Kids, what does it say where it's resting?
A. Again, I start in Dallas and I go to where it actually
resides. Again, it's the web site ISP of Bell Atlantic in
Reston, Virginia.
Q. Okay. Look at the next exhibit, SN-C-3. Do you recognize
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 213
that document?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that a confirmation from Landslide that you purchased
that web site?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Lolita Hardcore web site? A. Yes.
MS. MOORE: I'd offer SN-C-3. MR. BALL: No objection.
THE COURT: SN-C-3 is admitted. BY MS. MOORE:
Q. And it's just like the other confirmation e-mail, Detective
Nelson?
A. Yes, it is. It basically says that my account is for that
particular site, only that particular site, and to remember
what my user name and password is, and it will be good for 30
days, and that my credit card will be charged to Landslide.
Q. All right. If you'll look at the next image or the next
exhibit in your folder, and that is for Counts 3 and Counts 47
of the indictment. It's SN-C-4. Do you recognize that
document?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that something you downloaded onto a disk using this
web Buddy mechanism from the web site Lolita Hardcore?
A. Yes.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 214
Q. Is that particular image identified as gal,
or ga101-005.jpg?
A. Yes.
MS. MOORE: I would offer that, SN-C-4, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to B-4.
THE COURT: Same ruling. It's admitted.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. What are we seeing in that, Detective Nelson?
A. You're seeing oral sex contact by minors with a lascivious
genital exhibition. It's a younger male and a younger female.
Q. Look at the next exhibit in your binder, SN-C-5, and it's
for Counts 4 and 48 of the indictment.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that something you downloaded from that web site,
Lolita Hardcore?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it identified as ga101-008.jpg?
A. Yes.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-C-5, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objection to the previous exhibit.
THE COURT: Overruled. Admitted.
A. We have a male and female minor in a lascivious exhibition of the
genitals and the pubic area.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 215
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. I show you the next -- or look in your binder at SN-C-6.
It would be for Counts 5 and 49 of the indictment. That
particular image is identified in the indictment as
ga101_003.jpg.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recognize that image, sir?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Okay. Is that one, again, that you downloaded from this
particular web site, Lolita Hardcore?
A. Yes.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-C-6, your Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objection.
THE COURT: Overruled. Admitted.
A. This image is of a minor female performing oral sex on a
minor male with a lascivious genital exhibition.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Look in your binder at SN-C-7. And this is for Counts 6
and 50 of the indictment. Is that particular image identified
as ga101_007.jpg?
A. Yes.
Q. And that's what's listed in the indictment in Count 6 and
50?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recognize that image?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 216
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Is that from the web site Lolita Hardcore?
A. Yes, it is.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-C-7, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objection.
THE COURT: Overruled. Admitted.
A. This is a minor male and female in a lascivious exhibition
of the genitals and pubic area.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Were there other images similar to what we've just seen
from that web site, Lolita Hardcore?
A. There were many more.
Q. Okay. That's just a representative sample?
A. Yes.
Q. Let me show you --
MS. MOORE: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Let me show you what's marked as Government's Exhibit
SN-D-2 and ask you if you recognize that CD.
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And is that -- What is that CD?
A. It's a CD of the Web Buddy of the site Lolita World.
Q. That's a different web site than we've seen so far?
A. Yes.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 217
Q. Okay. And it's one that you downloaded onto the disk?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you had a chance to see that disk before coming into
court today?
A. Yes.
Q. Has it been altered, deleted, or messed with in any way?
A. No.
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, I would offer SN-D-2.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the location of the
images.
THE COURT: Overruled and admitted.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. In your folder, sir, if you will look at the next exhibit,
SN-D-2.1, and tell us if you recognize that exhibit.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And is that the home page from Lolita World?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that something you downloaded, also?
A. Yes.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-D-2.1, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objection.
THE COURT: Overruled. Admitted.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Now, you purchased this site like you had the others,
Detective?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 218
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Who did you pay?
A. Landslide.
Q. How much did you pay?
A. $29.95 for 30 days.
Q. For how long?
A. $29.95 for 30 days.
Q. All right. And is this like the home page, the first page
you come to?
A. Yes, it is.
MS. MOORE: Is there a second page to that document?
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Had you seen that "ClicZ" up there before?
A. Yes.
Q. Where?
A. On the home page of Landslide, on all the other sites.
Q. What about the adult classifieds?
A. The adult classifieds, on the home page of AVS.
Q. Look at SN-D-2.2. Do you recognize that document?
A. Yes.
Q. What is it?
A. It's the VisualRoute for the site Lolita World.
Q. Okay. So you did a visual route on every one of these?
A. Yes, I did.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-D-2-2, Your Honor.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 219
MR. BALL: No objection.
THE COURT: Admitted. Let me get the number again.
MS. MOORE: SN-D-2.2
THE COURT: Correct. Thank you.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. And, again, it goes through the hopping, and where is this
particular site located?
A. Again, it's residing at Bell Atlantic ISP, Reston,
Virginia, and it goes through the hops from Dallas all the way
to Bell Atlantic.
Q. And the next exhibit, SN-D-3, what is that exhibit,
Detective Nelson?
A. It's my confirmation e-mail from KeyZ and Landslide of my
site that I just purchased, Lolita World.
Q. It showed who you paid and how much?
A. Yes.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-D-3.
MR. BALL: No objection.
THE COURT: SN-D-3 is admitted.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. And that shows Lolita World is what you bought?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Let's look at the next exhibit in your binder,
SN-D-4. Do you -- and this is for Counts 7 and 51 of the
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 220
indictment, identified as ab-00.jpg? A. Yes.
Q. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Is that an image you saw on this particular web site that
you just purchased?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-D-4, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to C-7 and the other
images.
THE COURT: All right. Overruled and admitted.
A. This is a minor female in a lascivious exhibition of the
genitals and pubic area.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. The next exhibit is SN-D-5, Count 8 and 52 of the
indictment. And is that particular image identified as
ab-07.jpg?
A: Yes.
Q. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Is that one you downloaded from that particular web site?
A. Yes.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-D-5, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objection as the last exhibit.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 221
THE COURT: Overruled. Admitted.
A. It's a minor female in a lascivious exhibition of the
genitals and pubic area.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Look at the next exhibit in your binder, SN-D-6. It's for
Counts 9 and 53 of the indictment. Is that a computer image
identified as ab-12.jpg?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Okay. Is that one you downloaded from that particular web
site?
A. Yes, it is.
MS. MOORE; I would offer SN-D-6, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objection as the last exhibit.
THE COURT: Overruled. It's admitted.
A. It's a minor female in a lascivious exhibition of the
genitals and pubic area.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Look at the next exhibit, SN-D-7, for Counts 10 and 54 of
the indictment, identified as erec-OOl.jpg. Do you recognize
that photo?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Is it one you downloaded on the disk from that particular
web site?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Okay.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL 11, 222
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-D-7.
MR. BALL: Same objection as the last exhibit.
THE COURT: overruled. Admitted.
A. It's a minor male in a lascivious exhibition of the
genitals and pubic area.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. I'm showing you SN-D-8, identified for Counts 11 and 55 of
the indictment as computer image erec-004.jpg. Do you
recognize that image?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Is it one you downloaded from that site?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Okay.
MS. MOORE: I'd offer SN-D-8, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objection as the last exhibit.
THE COURT: Overruled. Admitted.
A. This is a minor male in a lascivious exhibition of the
genitals and pubic area.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. I'll show you SN-D-9, identified for Counts 12 and 56 of
the indictment, identified in the indictment as erec_007.jpg.
Do you recognize that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And is that the last image that you downloaded on the CD
from that particular web site, Lolita World?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 223
A. Yes, it is.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-D-9.
MR. BALL: Same objection as the last exhibit.
THE COURT: Overruled. It's admitted.
A. This is a minor male in a lascivious exhibition of the
genitals and pubic area.
MS. MOORE: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Let me show you what's identified as SNE, like Edward,
dash 1 and see if you recognize that.
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What is that exhibit?
A. It's the original VHS tape that I recorded on June the
3rd, 1999, and June the 11th of 1999 of four web sites.
Q. What web sites did you record?
A. Children of God, Children Forced to Porn, Just Grow Up,
and Child Rape.
Q. And you bought into all four of those sites?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Who did you pay?
A. Landslide.
Q. How much did you pay?
A. $29.95 for 30 days.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-E-1, Your Honor.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 224
MR. BALL: Judge, objection under Rule 402 and 403 as
to the other videos, and Rule 1002.
THE COURT: Same objections? There's no new points
in those objections?
MR. BALL: No, sir. It's the same as the other
video.
THE COURT: All right. Overruled. It's admitted.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Did you also Web Buddy that, Detective Nelson?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Let me show you what's marked as Government's Exhibit
SN-E-2. Is that the disk?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. That you downloaded using Web Buddy of those sites that we
just talked about that are on the VHS tape?
A. Yes, one of the sites, Child Rape.
Q. So that one shows only Child Rape?
A. Yes.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-E-2.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the other Web Buddy
CDs.
THE COURT: All right, sir. Overruled. Admitted.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Would you look at your next exhibit, Detective Nelson,
which is SN-E-2.1. Do you recognize that?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 225
A. Yes.
Q. Is that the downloaded home page of Child Rape?
A. Yes.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-E-2.1, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the other images.
THE COURT: Overruled. Admitted.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. SN-E-2.2, the next exhibit, do you recognize that,
Detective?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Okay. Is that a VisualRoute of the web site Child Rape?
A. Yes.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-E-2.2, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: No objection.
THE COURT: SN-E-2.2 is admitted.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Where does it show that that -- Child Rape, that web site,
is residing?
A. It shows Tri Star Web Creations in New York, New York.
Q. The next exhibit, sir, SN-E-3. What is that?
A. It's my confirmation e-mail where I updated my KeyZ
account for 30 days for the site Child Rape.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-E-3, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: No objection.
THE COURT: SN-E-3 is admitted.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 226
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Who did you pay for the site Child Rape?
A. Landslide.
Q. Look at the next exhibit, which is SN-E-4. It's for
Counts 13 and 57 of the indictment, identified in the
indictment as samplel.jpg. Do you recognize that image,
Detective Nelson?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you download that on a disk using Web Buddy from the
Child Rape site?
A. Yes, I did.
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, I would offer SN-E-4.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the other images.
MR. HEISKELL: Judge, as an additional objection I
would like to lodge at this time, too, to this exhibit. I
think the next two and that they are repetitive and redundant
as to SN-E-2.1 which has the images as well. And we would
object for that reason in that by repeating those images it
seeks to inflame the minds of the jury. It's repetitive and
redundant.
THE COURT: Overruled. Admitted.
A. This is an adult male performing genital intercourse with
a minor female.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. The next image, SN-E-4, which is Counts 13 and 57 of the
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 227
indictment -- never mind. I just did that one.
Let me show you the next one, SN-E-S, which is Counts 14 and 58
of the indictment.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Identified in the indictment as sample3.jpg?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And is that one you downloaded from the site Child Rape?
A. Yes, it is.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-E-5, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the last exhibit.
THE COURT: Overruled. It's admitted.
A. This is a minor female performing oral sex on an adult
male.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. If you'll look at the next one, Detective Nelson, SN-E-6.
It's for Counts 15 and 59 of the indictment, identified in the
indictment as sample5.jpg. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Is that one you downloaded from the site Child Rape?
A. Yes, it is.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-E-6, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the last exhibit.
THE COURT: Same ruling. It's admitted.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 228
A. This is a minor female in bondage performing oral sex on
an adult male.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Now, were there other photographs similar to that within
the site of Child Rape?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. This was just a sampling of some?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Did you buy a site called Children of God?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Who did you pay for Children of God?
A. Landslide.
MS. MOORE: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Let me show you what's marked as SN-F-2 and ask if you
recognize that exhibit?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And what is that?
A. It's the CD of the Web Buddy of the site Children of God.
MS. MOORE; Your Honor, I would offer SN-F-2.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the previous Web
Buddy CDs.
THE COURT: Overruled. It's admitted.
BY MS. MOORE:
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 229
Q. Detective Nelson, would you look at SN-F-2.1. Is that a
downloaded printed page of the home page of Children of God?
A. Yes.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-F-2.1, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the other Web Buddy
images.
THE COURT: Overruled. It's admitted.
A. This is the hyperlinks up here taking you to pages,
basically page 1 through 16, and these are banners or
advertisements for other sites that you just click on and go to
that particular site.
MS. MOORE: And there's a second page to that as
well.
A. Again, just more banners at the bottom of the page that
you click on and go to each particular site.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Look at SN-F-2.2. Is that a VisualRoute that you did for
the web site Children of God?
A. Yes, it is.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-F-2.2, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: No objection.
THE COURT: Admitted.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Detective Nelson, where is that site residing?
A. From my computer from Dallas it shows that it resides at
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 230
InterWorld Communications located in El Segundo, California.
Q. Now, look at the next exhibit, SN-F-3, and I ask you if
you recognize that exhibit?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And what is that?
A. This is an e-mail from a subject that gave me his
passwords to some KeyZ sites.
Q. What KeyZ sites did he give you passwords to?
A. Children of God.
Q. And Children Forced To Porn?
A. I believe it was. I'm not sure.
MS. MOORE; Well, I would offer SN-F-3, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: No objection.
THE COURT: Admitted.
A. Here it is. It's from the suspect from Canada that I
alluded to earlier. He said try these passwords. This gk102
is his user name. His password was "bare." I would type that
into the KeyZ signup page, and it would take me to that site
that that person bought. And he gave me the passwords to three
sites.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Okay. Look at the next exhibit in your binder, SN-F-4.
It's for Counts 16 and 60 of the indictment identified in the
indictment as 1.jpg. Do you recognize that image?
A. Yes, I do.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 231
Q. Is it an image you downloaded from the site Children of
God?
A. Yes, it is.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-F-4, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the other images.
THE COURT: Overruled. It's admitted.
A. This is an adult performing oral sex on a minor female.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Look at the next exhibit, SN-F-5. It's for Counts 17 and
61 of the indictment, identified in the indictment as 105.jpg.
Do you recognize that image?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Is that downloaded from Children of God?
A. Yes.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-F-5.
MR. BALL: Same objection as the last exhibit.
THE COURT: Overruled. It's admitted.
A. This is a minor female performing oral sex on a male.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Look at the next exhibit, which is SN-F-6, identified in
Counts 18 and 62 of the indictment as 96.jpg. Do you recognize
that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And was it downloaded by you from Children of God?
A. Yes, it was.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 232
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-F-6, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the last exhibit.
THE COURT: Overruled. It's admitted.
A. This is an adult male performing genital intercourse with
a minor female.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Look at your next one, SN-F-7, identified in Counts 19 and
63 of the indictment as al3.jpg. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Okay. And is it one you downloaded?
A. Yes, it is.
MS. MOORE: I'd offer SN-F-7, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objection as the last exhibit.
THE COURT: Same ruling. Admitted.
A. This is a minor female masturbating an adult male.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Look at your next exhibit, SN-F-8, identified for Counts
20 and 64 as a59.jpg. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And is it one you downloaded from that particular site?
A. Yes.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-F-8, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objection as the last exhibit.
THE COURT: Overruled. Admitted.
A. This is a minor female performing oral sex on an adult
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 233
male.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Now, are there other images similar to these on that
particular web site?
A. Yes, there are.
Q. And this is just a sampling?
A. Yes.
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, may I approach the witness?
THE COURT: Yes, you may.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Let me show you SN-G-2. Do you recognize that exhibit?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Is it a CD from your Web Buddy?
A. Yes.
Q. Of what site?
A. Just Grow Up.
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, I would offer SN-G-2.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the other computer
CDs.
THE COURT: Overruled and admitted.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Look at the next exhibit, Detective Nelson, SN-G-2.1. Is
that the home page from Just Grow Up?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Is that the one you downloaded?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 234
A. Yes, it is.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-G-2.1, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to SN-F-8 and the other
exhibits.
THE COURT: Overruled. Admitted.
A. This is the home page Just Grow Up. Most of the page is
advertisement banners for other sites. The member's area,
there's a Gallery I and a Gallery II. You press on the
hyperlink, and it shoots you right to the page of thumbnails.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Now, do you have to pay to see the home page?
A. Most of the time if you click on a banner and just click
on that particular page, you'll get, like I said, some teaser
pictures. Those are free.
Q. That's free.
A. Yes.
Q. What you're seeing right there is free.
A. Yes.
Q. And from there you buy in and see the dirt.
A. Yes. As they keep telling you, as a confirmation e-mail,
you only get that one particular site and that particular site
only.
Q. Did you do a VisualRoute of this particular site?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Is that SN-G-2.2?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 235
A. Yes.
MS. MOORE: I offer that, Your Honor, SN-G-2.2.
MR. BALL: No objection.
THE COURT: Admitted.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. And where is that site, Just Grow Up, resting?
A. It resides at Net Access Corporation, which is in
Whippany, New Jersey.
Q. Did you get a confirmation e-mail from Landslide when you
bought Just Grow Up?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Is that SN-G-3?
A. Yes.
MS. MOORE: I offer SN-G-3, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: No objection.
THE COURT: Admitted.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Look at your next exhibit, which is SN-G-4, for Counts 24
and 65 of the indictment, identified in the indictment as
3.jpg. Do you recognize that image?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Is that one you downloaded from Just Grow Up?
A. Yes.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-G-4, your Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the other Web Buddy
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 236
images.
THE COURT: Overruled. Admitted.
A. This is a minor female in a lascivious exhibition of the
genitals.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Look at SN-G-5, which is identified in Counts 22 and 66 of
the indictment as 35.jpg. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Did you download that from Just Grow Up?
A. Yes, I did.
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, I would offer SN-G-5.
MR. BALL: Your Honor, same objection as the other
Web Buddy images.
THE COURT: Overruled. Admitted.
A. It shows a lascivious exhibition of the genitals of a
minor male and minor female.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Look at the next exhibit, SN-G-6. It's for Counts 23 and
67 of the indictment, identified in the indictment as 45.jpg.
Do you recognize that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Did you download that from Just Grow Up?
A. Yes.
MS. MOORE: I'd offer SN-G-6, your Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the last exhibit.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 237
THE COURT: Overruled. Admitted.
A. This is a minor female masturbating an adult male.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Let me show you the next exhibit, SN-G-7, identified as
Counts 24 and 68 of the indictment. And in the indictment it's
identified as cindyl4.jpg. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Did you download that from Just Grow Up?
A. Yes, I did.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-G-7, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objection as the last exhibit.
THE COURT: Overruled. Admitted.
A. This is a minor female masturbating an adult male.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. And let me show you SN-G-7, which is -- Is that the one I
just did? I'm sorry. I forgot to mark it on my sheet.
MS. MOORE: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Let me show you SN-H-2 and ask if you recognize that
exhibit?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And what is it?
A. It's a CD of the Web Buddy of the site Children Forced To
Porn.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 238
Q. This is Children Forced To Porn?
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-H-2, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the other Web Buddy
CDs.
THE COURT: Overruled. Admitted.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. And, again, you saw that before coming in here, Detective
Nelson?
A. Yes.
Q. Hasn't been altered or deleted?
A. No.
Q. Okay. Let me show you SN-H-2.1. Do you recognize it as
the home page of Children Forced To Porn?
A. Yes.
MS. MOORE: I'd offer SN-H-2.1, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to SN-G-7.
MR. HEISKELL: Furthermore, Your Honor, it's
repetitive and redundant and these images have previously been
objected under Rule 403.
THE COURT: Overruled. It's admitted.
A. The home page of Children Forced To Porn, and you have
banners, which is hyperlinks, from basically page 1 all the way
to page 31. You click on each individual hyperlink and it will
take you to the thumbnail page.
Q. Who did you pay for Children Forced To Porn?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 239
A. Landslide.
Q. How much did you pay them?
A. $29.95.
Q. And did you do a VisualRoute to see where this Children
Forced To Porn was resting?
A. Yes.
Q. And is that SN-H-2.2?
A. Yes, it is.
MS. MOORE: I'd offer SN-H-2.2, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the others.
THE COURT: Same ruling. Admitted.
MR. BALL: Oh, no objection. I'm sorry.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. And where is it resting, Detective Nelson?
A. It resides to InterWorld Communications, which is in
El Segundo, California.
Q. Let me show you the next exhibit, which is SN-H-4,
identified in Counts 25 and 69 of the indictment as a computer
image 252.jpg. Do you recognize that, Detective Nelson?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Is that a downloaded image from Children Forced To Porn?
A. Yes.
Q. All right.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-H-4.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the other Web Buddy
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 240
images.
THE COURT: All right. Overruled and admitted.
A. This is a minor female performing oral sex on an adult male.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Would you look at -- Well, let me show you --
MS. MOORE: If I may approach, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, ma'am.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. SN-I-1 and ask if you recognize it.
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What is that?
THE COURT: Ms. Moore, we need to quit pretty soon.
Some of us are hungry and some of us need a break worse than
others.
MS. MOORE: Okay. If I can just finish with the
videotape?
THE COURT: Sure, go ahead.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Do you recognize that one?
A. Yes, I do. It's the original videotape that I recorded
August 6th of 1999, August the 29th of 1999, August the 31st of
1999, and again August the 31st, 1999, of the sites
pussies4u.com, AVS Gold, Fantastic Site, and Special Site.
Q. Now, in the indictment we have Fantastic Site and Special
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 241
Site; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay.
MS. MOORE: And I would offer SN-I-1, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the other videotape images.
THE COURT: Same ruling. Admitted.
All right. Let's see, it's 12:15. I'll give you an
hour and 15 minutes today. I think that will be ample time,
but since it's the first day and you're not as familiar with
the area it might take a little longer. So let's return here
at 1:30.
(Court in recess, 12:15 p.m. until 1:36 p.m.)
THE COURT: You may proceed.
MS. MOORE: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Detective Nelson, let me show you what's been marked as
SN-I-2 and ask if you can identify that exhibit.
A. Yes, I can.
Q. What is it?
A. It's the CD of the Web Buddy for the web site Fantastic
Site.
Q. So we're talking about a new site now called Fantastic
Site?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 242
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And that's the one you downloaded using Web Buddy?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. You've seen it before coming in here and it hasn't been
altered or deleted?
A. That's correct.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-I-2, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the other Web Buddy
CDs.
THE COURT: All right, sir. Overruled. Admitted.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Let me show you what's in your binder as the next exhibit,
SN-I-2.1 and ask if you can identify that.
A. Yes, I can.
Q. What is it?
A. It's the gallery page to Fantastic Site.
Q. And there's several more pages that go with that exhibit?
A. Yes. And there's banners -- hyperlinks and banners for
advertisements for other sites.
Q. And that's the home page for Fantastic Site?
A. Yes, it is.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-I-2.1.
MR. BALL: Judge, same objection to the other Web
Buddy images. In addition, there's no reference on this
document at all to any Reedy or Landslide site or link.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 243
THE COURT: Relevance?
MS. MOORE: It's the home page of that site that he
went through Landslide to purchase.
THE COURT: That would be his testimony, or has been?
MS. MOORE: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Overruled. It's admitted.
MS. MOORE: May I publish it?
A. That whole box of figures up there are actually rooms.
You click on the hyperlink and it would take you to the
thumbnail pages. And these are the banners, advertisements for
other sites, that you can click on and get access to.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. And there are several pages of that?
A. Yes.
Q. Let me show you next, what is SN-I-2.2. Did you do a
VisualRoute for Fantastic Site?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Okay.
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, I would offer SN-I-2.2.
MR. BALL: No objection.
THE COURT: 2.2 is admitted.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. And the VisualRoute for Fantastic Site shows that it is
resting where?
A. It shows Dream Train Internet, which resides in Tokyo,
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 244
Japan.
Q. Did you get a confirmation e-mail from Landslide after
purchasing Fantastic Site?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Would you look at SN-I-3?
A. Yes.
Q. Is this the confirmation e-mail?
A. Yes, it is.
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, I would offer SN-I-3.
MR. BALL: No objection.
THE COURT: Admitted.
A. This is the e-mail advising me what my user name and
password is, that I have it for 30 days, and it's only valid
for this particular site, Fantastic Site, and that I have it
for 30 days.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. At the bottom of the e-mail who is it from? Does it say
-- Read the line.
A. It says, "This is just to say Thanks! KeyZ (Landslide,
Inc.)."
Q, Okay. And is that just to say thanks from KeyZ, is that
on every one of these that we've talked about so far?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Okay. Would you turn to the next exhibit in your binder.
This is for Counts 26 and 70, identified in the indictment as
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 245
lolital06.jpg. Do you recognize that image?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Is it one that you downloaded on a CD using Web Buddy from
Fantastic Site?
A. Yes, it is.
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, I would offer SN-I-4.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the other Web Buddy
images.
THE COURT: All right. It's overruled and admitted.
A. This is a minor female performing oral sex on an
adult male.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Look at the next image there in your binder, SN-I-5.
That's Counts 27 and 71 of the indictment, identified as
lolita_21.jpg.
A. Yes.
Q. Is that an image from Fantastic Site that you downloaded?
A. Yes, it is.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-I-5, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objections as to the other Web Buddy
images.
THE COURT: Overruled. It's admitted.
A. This is an adult male performing anal intercourse with a
minor female.
BY MS. MOORE:
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 246
Q. Look at SN-I-6, Counts 28 and 72 of the inditement,
identified in the indictment as lolita_27.jpg.
A. Yes.
Q. And is that an image that you downloaded from Fantastic
Site?
A. Yes, it is.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-I-6.
MR. BALL: Same objection to the other Web Buddy
images.
THE COURT: Overruled. It's admitted.
A. This is a lascivious exhibition of a minor female
genitals.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. And look at the next one, SN-I-7 for Counts 29 and 73,
identified in the indictment as lolita_40.jpg.
A. Yes.
Q. Is that an image that you downloaded from Fantastic Site?
A. Yes, it is.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-I-7, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the other Web Buddy
images.
THE COURT: Overruled. It's admitted.
A. This is an adult male performing genital intercourse with
a minor female.
BY MS. MOORE:
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 247
Q. If you will look at the next one there in your binder,
SN-I-8, representing Counts 30 and 74 of the indictment,
identified in the indictment as lolita_45.jpg.
A. Yes.
Q. Did you download that from Fantastic Site?
A. Yes, I did.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-I-8.
MR. BALL: Same objections as to the other Web Buddy
images, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Overruled, and it's admitted.
A. This is an adult male performing genital intercourse with
a minor female.
MS. MOORE: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Let me show you the last videotape, Detective Nelson,
identified as SN-J-1 and ask you if you recognize that.
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What is it?
A. It's a VHS tape that I recorded from June the 17th, 1999,
to July 7th -- excuse me, July 14th, 1999 of six of the web
sites.
Q. How many web sites?
A. Six.
Q. Which web sites does that represent?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 248
A. Children Playground, Innocent Lolita, Lolita's Land,
Pussies 4 U, kintamani.com, and A Lolita For You.
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, I would offer SN-J-1.
MR. BALL: I'm sorry, what number?
MS. MOORE: SN-J-1.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to other videotape
captures.
THE COURT: All right. Overruled, and it's admitted.
MS. MOORE: May I approach, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may. BY MS. MOORE:
Q. I'll show you SN-J-2, Detective Nelson, and ask you to
identify that.
A. Yes, I can.
Q. And what is it?
A. It's a CD of the Web Buddy that I did on this web site
Lolita's Land.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-J-2.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the other CD
captures.
THE COURT: Overruled.
Admitted BY MS. MOORE:
Q. And, again, it hasn't been altered or deleted, Detective
Nelson; is that right? Detective Nelson.
A. I'm sorry?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 249
Q. That CD, you saw it before coming in here?
A. Yes.
Q. No alterations?
A. No.
Q. Okay. Will you look at SN-J-2.1. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And what is it?
A. It's a home page for the site Lolita's Land.
Q. Did you download that site from Lolita's Land?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Or that home page, rather.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-J-2.1, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Judge, same objection as to the other Web
Buddy images. In addition, there's no information linking it
to the Landslide or Reedy site. It's irrelevant under 402.
MS. MOORE: May I ask him a question real quick?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Did you purchase this site?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Who did you pay?
A. Landslide.
THE COURT: Overruled. Admitted.
A. It's the first part of the home page, and there's a few
pages afterwards.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 250
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Look at the next exhibit. Did you do a VisualRoute --
A. Yes, I did.
Q. -- for Lolita's Land, the site we just saw?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that SN-J-2.2?
A. Yes.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-J-2.2, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: No objection.
THE COURT: Admitted.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. And where does it show that Lolita's Land site was resting?
A. It ends in Wizard Technologies in Griffin, Georgia. It
goes from Dallas to Georgia where it resides.
Q. And did you get a confirmation e-mail from Landslide for
purchasing that site?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Would you look at the next exhibit, SN-J-3.
A. Yes.
Q. Is that the confirmation e-mail?
A. Yes, it is.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-J-3, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: No objection.
THE COURT: Admitted. BY MS. MOORE:
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 251
Q. And does it look just like all the other confirmations, it
just tells you what site you bought?
A. It's the same except for on your KeyZ site it's valid for
seven days. I paid $14.95 for this site for seven days only
because this particular site was nothing but avi's and mpg's,
which are movies, short clips of actual videotapes that were
taken and made in computer format. They would run anywhere
from five seconds long to sometimes a minute long.
Q. So they're actual movies?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Will you look at the next exhibit, which is SN-J-4,
representing Counts 31 and 75 of the indictment, identified in
the indictment as video7.mpg. Now, is this going to be a
movie?
A. Yes.
Q. And about how long is it?
A. It's seconds.
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, I would offer SN-J-4.
MR. BALL: Judge, same objections as to the other
still images with the Web Buddy.
THE COURT: Overruled. It's admitted.
A. It's a minor female performing oral sex on an adult male.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Okay. Look at the next one representing Counts 32 and 67
of the indictment, SN-J-5, another movie identified in the
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 252
indictment as videos59.rm. Do you recognize that? Detective
Nelson?
A. Fifty-nine?
Q. Yes, sir. Count 32 of the indictment?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay.
A. It's not on my sheet here. It's left out.
Q. Okay. Well, you've seen it before coming in the
courtroom?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it what you downloaded?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. From that site Lolita's Land?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay.
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, I would offer SN-J-5.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the last exhibit.
THE COURT: Overruled. It's admitted.
A. This is another short second clip of a minor female
masturbating.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Okay. Look at your next one, SN-J-6, representing Counts
33 and 77 of the indictment, identified as videos58.rm.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recognize that? Is that another movie you
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 253
downloaded from Lolita's Land site?
A. Yes.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-J-6, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the last exhibit.
THE COURT: Overruled. Admitted.
A. It's another clip of the same female just -- exhibition of
the genitals.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Okay. Let's look at SN-J-7, representing Counts 34 and 78
of the indictment, identified in the indictment as
video23.mpg.?
A. Yes.
Q. And is that something you downloaded from Lolita's Land
site?
A. Yes, it is.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-J-7, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the last exhibit.
THE COURT: Overruled. Admitted.
A. This is a minor female performing oral sex on an adult male.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Look at SN-J-8 representing Counts 35 and 79 of the
indictment, identified in the indictment as videos28.mpg,
M-P-G. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL TI, 254
Q. Did you download it from Lolita's Land?
A. Yes, I did.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-J-8, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the last exhibit.
THE COURT: Overruled. Admitted.
A. This is an adult female masturbating a minor female.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Did you say an adult female?
A. Yes.
Q. Look at SN-J-9 representing Counts 36 and 80 of the
ndictment, identified in the indictment as videos45.mpg,
M-P-G.
A. Yes.
Q. Did you download that from Lolita's Land?
A. Yes, I did.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-J-9.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the last exhibit.
THE COURT: Overruled. Admitted.
A. This is a minor female masturbating an adult male.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Let's look at SN-J-10 representing Counts 37 and 81 of the
indictment, identified in the indictment as videos47.mpg. Do
you recognize that?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you download that from Lolita's Land?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 255
A. Yes, I did.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-J-10.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the last exhibit.
THE COURT: Overruled. Admitted.
A. This is a minor female performing oral sex on an adult
male.
MS. MOORE: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, you may.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Let me show you the last CD, SN-K-2, and ask you if you
recognize that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What is it?
A. It's the CD of the Web Buddy of the site I did capture,
Special Site.
Q. What's the name of the site?
A. Special Site.
Q. Did you buy that site?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Who did you buy it from?
A. Landslide.
Q. Okay.
MS. MOORE: I'd offer SN-K-2, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the other Web Buddy
CDs.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 256
THE COURT: Overruled. It's admitted.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. And will you look at SN-K-2.2?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you download that?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And what is it?
A. It's the page for Special Site.
Q. Okay.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-K-2.1. I said 2.2. I
meant 2.1.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. 2.1 is the home page?
A. Yes.
Q. That was the next exhibit, 2.1.
A. Yes.
Q. You were ahead of me. It's the home page?
A. Yes.
MS. MOORE: I would offer that, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objection.
THE COURT: 2.1 you're offering?
MS. MOORE: Yes, sir.
MR. BALL: Same objection, and also there does not
appear to be a link to anything involving Landslide or the
Reedys.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 257
THE COURT: Overruled. Admitted.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. You did say you bought that from Landslide, didn't you,
Detective?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Did you do a VisualRoute on the site called special
Site?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And is that Exhibit SN-K-2.2?
A. Yes, it is.
MS. MOORE: I would offer that, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: No objection.
THE COURT: Admitted.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. And where does Special Site reside?
A. It resides at the network of Dream Train Internet, which is
Tokyo, Japan.
Q. Did you get a confirmation e-mail from Landslide when you
purchased Special Site through them?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Would you look at SN-K-3?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that your confirmation e-mail?
A. Yes, it is.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-K-3, Your Honor.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 258
MR. BALL: No objection. Judge, I don't believe that
SN-K-2.2 was displayed. It displayed a Griffin, Georgia,
exhibit a minute ago.
THE COURT: Did you display 2.2, or did you want to?
MS. MOORE: I thought we did.
MR. BALL: It said Lolita's Land at the top.
MS. MOORE: SN-K-2.2.
MR. BALL: I don't believe it was displayed. But I
don't have any objection to K-3.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. 2.2 that you said came from Tokyo, Japan?
A. Yes. That was the VisualRoute.
MR. BALL: Right. It was Lolita's Land.
MS. MOORE: Did we put up the wrong one?
MR. BALL: That's probably it there. And SN-K-3, no
objection, judge.
THE COURT: SN-K-3 is admitted.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. All right. Now going back now to your confirmation
e-mail, which is SN-K-3.
A. Yes. This confirmation e-mail is just telling me that my
account is only valid to access Special Site, my user name and
password, and that I have access for 30 days with no further
charges.
Q. And does it say thank you from KeyZ?
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A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Would you turn to the next exhibit, SN-K-4,
representing Counts 38 and 82 of the indictment, identified in
the indictment as 10st.jpg, J-P-G.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Is that an image you downloaded from Special Site?
A. Yes, it is.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-K-4.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the other Web Buddy
images.
THE COURT: Overruled. It's admitted.
A. This is an adult male performing genital intercourse with
a minor female.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. All right. And look at SN-K-5, representing Counts 39 and
83 of the indictment, identified in the indictment as 6y.jpg.
A. Yes.
Q. Did you download that from Special Site?
A. Yes, I did.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-K-5.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the last exhibit.
THE COURT: Overruled. Admitted.
A. This is a a minor female masturbating.
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BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Look at SN-K-6 representing Counts 40 and 84 of the
indictment, identified in the indictment as 18.jpg.
A. Yes.
Q. Did you download that from Special Site?
A. Yes, I did.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-K-6.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the last exhibit.
THE COURT: Overruled. It's admitted.
A. It's an adult male touching the penis to vagina of a minor
female.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Look at SN-K-7, representing Counts 41 and 85 of the
indictment, identified in the indictment as 71.jpg.
A. Yes.
Q. Did you download that from Special Site?
A. Yes, I did.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-K-7.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the last exhibit.
THE COURT: Overruled. It's admitted.
A. This is a minor female masturbating an adult male.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Look at SN-K-B representing Counts 42 and 86 of the
indictment, identified in the indictment as llf.jpg.
A. Yes.
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Q. Did you download that from Special Site?
A. Yes, I did.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-K-8.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the last exhibit.
THE COURT: Overruled. It's admitted.
A. This is a male performing genital intercourse with a minor
female.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. And look at SN-K-9 representing Counts 43 and 87 of the
indictment, identified as 75.jpg. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you download that from Special Site?
A. Yes, I did.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-K-9.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the last exhibit.
THE COURT: Overruled. Admitted.
A. It's a minor female performing oral sex on an adult male.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Now, look at SN-K-10, representing Counts 44 and 88 of the
indictment, identified as 83.jpg.
A. Yes.
Q. Did you download that from Special Site? A. Yes, I did.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-K-10.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the last exhibit.
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THE COURT: Overruled. Admitted.
A. This is an adult male performing anal sex on a minor
female.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Okay. No more pictures. Look at SN-L-l.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What is it?
A. It's my credit card bill. I say "my credit card bill."
The undercover account credit card.
Q. And does it show these purchases on your bill?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-L-1.
MR. BALL: No objection.
THE COURT: Admitted.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. And who does it say you purchased the 32.43 from, $32.43?
A. Landslide Productions, Fort Worth, Texas, on April the
22nd.
Q. Okay. Look at SN-L-2. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes.
Q. What is it?
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A. Again, it's my credit card bill for the undercover
account.
MS. MOORE: I would offer SN-L-2.
MR. BALL: No objection.
THE COURT: Admitted.
A. Again, this just shows the date of purchases where
Landslide Productions, Fort Worth, Texas, were paid certain
amounts.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Look at SN-L-3.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes.
Q. What is that?
A. Again, my undercover credit card bill.
Q. Okay.
MS. MOORE; I would offer SN-L-3.
MR. BALL: No objection.
THE COURT: It's admitted.
A. Again, it's the credit card bill showing numerous
purchases to Landslide Productions, Fort Worth, Texas.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Detective Nelson, you mentioned that you got a password
from a fellow up in Canada --
A. Yes.
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Q. -- to get into a couple of these sites.
A. Yes.
Q. How did you come into contact with that person?
A. Through the adult classifieds.
Q. And have any people been arrested from the adult
classifieds?
MR. BALL: Judge, I'll object to the relevance of
that as to -- Hasn't shown to be of any knowledge of Landslide.
THE COURT: Response.
MS. MOORE: I'll withdraw the question, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
MS. MOORE: I'll pass the witness, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
Cross-examination?
MR. BALL: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may proceed.
MR. BALL: Thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. BALL:
Q. Detective Nelson, I think you indicated that you began
this internet search as a response to information from
Inspector Adams; is that right, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And did you conduct the entirety of the
internet surfing that produced the Web Buddy CDs and the
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videos, did you do all of that from your office there at the
Dallas Police Department?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. All right. Did you use the same computer in each
instance?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. And did you have to use some sort of an
internet service provider in order to gain access to the
internet?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. In other words, for those not computer
sophisticated, you just can't buy a computer, plug it into a
telephone line, and then type in something and go on the
internet. You've got to go through a provider of some kind; is
that right?
A. That's true, yes, sir.
Q. An example might be America Online, one of the more common
popular ones?
A. Yes.
Q. In fact, did you use America Online as an internet service
provider?
A. I used a bunch of them. America Online is one of them.
Q. All right. What other ones did you use, sir?
A. Microsoft, Internet Explorer. Right now I'm on a DSL
line, which is a direct access.
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Q. Okay. So let's take, for example, an AOL internet service
provider, your computer would dial in on a modem. I think you
said you used a 56K modem, which sometimes took time to load
with the little blue bar; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And it would dial in some number for America Online and
then what would appear on your computer was a page, an image,
that was provided to you by America Online; is that right?
A. Their home page, yes, sir.
Q. Okay. And while on America Online, you could go up to a
bar and type in a URL or web address.
A. Yes.
Q. And click "search" or "go" or something, and then it would
transport you to that address; is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. Of course, that would appear, if you were looking at your
computer monitor, when you went to that address, wherever it
might be, whether it be pornographic images or anything else,
the trappings around that image would still have America Online
type features, would it not?
A. I don't believe so. If you go -- America Online is their
own community. But if you would like to go through America
Online to go to the World Wide Web, the address you would go to
would be what would be showing in the block.
Q. I understand that. But the image actually -- If you're
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looking at the computer screen when you go to whatever web site
you've gone to, it would have whatever that web site wanted to
show you and it would also have around the border some of the
trappings and tools and images provided --
A. Oh, from America Online, yes, sir.
Q. Yes, sir. So one might look at an image and still see
things that say America Online at the top and the bottom; is
that right?
A. Unless you had reduced the screen and just bring up the
browser to do the whole screen inside of where you were. You
can reduce a page behind a page.
Q. Correct.
A. So you don't necessarily have to see America Online
everywhere.
Q. But it certainly can be done that way, and you would be
looking at an image that had American Online stuff at the top
and the bottom and then the image shown to you by the web site;
is that right?
A. You would be reducing your screen a little bit, but it
could be done, yes, sir.
Q. In fact, when we look at an image on a computer screen,
does everything we see come, necessarily, from the site you've
gone to, or is some of it linked or imported from elsewhere?
Or do you know, sir?
A. I don't really catch what you're saying.
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Q. All right. Well, if we go to a web site and it has a
variety of advertizing and it has -- We've seen something
called banners, which are typically horizontal, narrow strips
with some sort of advertising; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Is that banner necessarily on the web site
where you are, or is it sometimes imported from elsewhere?
A. That's kind of a technical question. I'm not really sure.
I know there are some banner swapping, things that are going on
that a person would get credit for their advertisement on a
page. They're called click-thrus. I guess it's just a link.
You would have to agree for it to be on your site.
Q. All right. Well, let's take an example. We can look at
an image, a web page, that said landslide.com, and I think we
all saw several times that on occasion there would appear a
banner that said "For Child Porn Click Here." Did you see
that?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Do you know how that banner got put there on that
page?
A. Technically, I'm not really sure what the logistics are on
how to post it there. I know it was -- a banner that was on
the site that was allowed to be there to click through to go to
another site.
Q. All right. Do you know whether a person participating in
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a banner exchange program can automatically upload whatever
banners and images he wants to, to a particular web site? Let
me rephrase that.
If I have a web site, let's say it says landslide.com, and
it has some information about Landslide, can I authorize
webmasters in the banner exchange program to upload banners
that say whatever it is they want to say?
A. I'm not really sure about that, sir.
Q. All right. Now, you went -- We looked at a number of
pictures with respect to the images that relate to the counts
in the indictment, and if I understood it correctly, there
might be an image and it might relate to two different counts,
one where the government is saying that it was an actual child
and another legal theory is it appears to be a child. But we
have one image, right?
A. I don't know what you mean.
Q. Okay. The images, the larger images, that were found on
each of the sites?
A. Yes.
Q. None of those images were hosted by landslide.com, were
they?
A. I don't believe they were. They were all in different parts of
the country. The actual pictures were actually
physically located at those particular web sites, the domain
names we just went to.
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Q. All right. So none of those images, those horrible images
of children, were hosted on any sites owned by Landslide, Tom
Reedy, or Janice Reedy; is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. They were hosted at other locations owned by other people;
is that correct, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And they were actually transported from those
sites to your computer, is that correct, sir, so that you could
view them?
A. Go through that again.
Q. All right. Well, you did some -- Do you recall the
mapping? There were a number of exhibits, and I'll get to a
specific one in a moment. But do you recall the mapping
system?
A. Yes.
Q. And it actually has a list of -- it's an attempt through
some software program to track the route from, let's say, your
computer to where the image was sent to you from; is that
right?
A. Yes.
Q. And, for example, I recall one ends up, I think, in
Reston, Virginia?
A. Right.
Q. And it begins in Dallas, Texas, correct?
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A. Yes.
Q. And may have gone through several cities and locations
ultimately to Virginia; is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. And what would happen is when you wanted to access
that site and look at an image, that image would pass through
all of those locations from where it was hosted, that is, where
the image was originally stored on a computer, to your
computer; is that correct?
A. Not really. I had to actually get permission to go to
that site first and show that I paid for it. So I had to go to
Landslide to go to the site.
Q. All right. But you didn't go through -- After you got the
information, the password or user name and made your payment,
you didn't go back through Landslide at all, did you?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Is Landslide listed on any of those hops, on
any of those maps, that have been introduced into evidence?
A. No.
Q. All right. Let me back up a minute. When you went -- You
got the information from Inspector Adams about a particular
site and that's where you started; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you recall what site that was?
A. It was Lolita World.
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Q. All right. And so you didn't get the name Lolita World
from KeyZ or Landslide or any Reedy sites. You went,
initially, directly to Lolita World, I guess, dot com; is that
right?
A. Like the first page of it, yes, sir.
Q. Okay. And at some point if you wanted to subscribe to
that particular service, there would be something to click on
that would transport you to a Landslide site; is that right?
A. Yes. Their signup for that site.
Q. And it would be a signup page?
A. Yes.
Q. And you would type in the information that they requested,
name, credit card number, and so forth; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. At some point hit "enter," and then I think very quickly
you'd get a confirmation e-mail; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. With your password and user name and what site you had
subscribed to; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Do you know where that e-mail that you received saying,
you know, thank you for signing up, or whatever it said in that
regard, do you know whether that e-mail was sent by a human
typing in those words, or did it appear to you to be an
auto-generated e-mail, sort of an automatic system?
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A. I've got an opinion on it. It looks to me like it would
be kind of both. But it seems more automated being that
there's so much text in it.
Q. All right. Certainly, the name and the password, user ID,
and the name of the site is different, but the rest of the text
appears to be almost identical on each confirmation e-mail; is
that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And it was done rather quickly; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And then when you got that information, what would you do?
Where would you go? How would you get to, let's say, Lolita
Land? What would you do at that point?
A. Because the sites, the nature of the business changed
quite frequently, if you bookmark a page, let's say, make it as
a favorite place, you save it there, tomorrow it would be gone.
So you lost it. So Landslide tells you to only bookmark this
page, and then you can get to any of your sites. So they told
me to bookmark kintamani.com, which would lead me to the KeyZ
signup page.
Q. I'm talking about you've already signed up and you've got
the e-mail telling you your credit card has been approved.
A. Yes.
Q. What do you do at that point to get to kintamani.com or
Lolita Land or whatever you signed up for?
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A. I go back to the Landslide home page, I click on KeyZ.
KeyZ pulls up. I type in my user name and password, because
they're unique to whatever site you bought, and it would ship
me right to that site that I bought.
Q. All right. And at that point you begin to see -- you will
at least get an initial page of, let's say, Lolita Land, right?
A. Since I've already bought it, I'll get the first home
page, the start page.
Q. So you're already in as a member and can look at the
pictures and the subsequent pages; is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. And does the URL or the address where you are at that
point say Landslide or KeyZ or anything of that sort?
A. No. It usually resolved to where that site was. It might
show an IP address at the bottom, or it might say www whatever
that webmaster named that site to get to it.
Q. All right. Did you -- Could you go to -- Did you
familiarize yourself with both AVS and KeyZ?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Would it be fair to say all of the images that
have been introduced into evidence this morning and this
afternoon were through the KeyZ system?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. What was different about AVS?
A. AVS was a system of adult sites that you paid like $19.95
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and you could have unlimited access to all the sites for six
months. There could be something like 1,700 links to adult
sites, and you click on whatever your interest was and go to
that site.
Q. All right. Was the AVS site, when you went to the AVS
page, would it have a list of sites that would be available to
you for your inspection?
A. My recollection is it did. It had all the sites and they
were all hyperlinked where you just run your mouse over it,
click on it, and you go right to it.
Q. And would it be some sort of descriptive term, supposedly
what you were going to see if you went there?
A. Yes. It's just like a small title and then a little
paragraph of what you would see.
Q. It might say something like "Asians," and then you click
on it and it takes you to a page that at least advertises being
Asians; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And other than dealing in this particular case, have you
worked on the internet, worked and used the internet, in other
investigations involving pornography or child pornography?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Is it a common practice in that industry for
puffing or teasing in advertisements?
A. Sure. Yes, sir, it is.
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Q. All right. Sometimes you might have a description of what
a site supposedly contains, and you go there and in fact that's
what's shown; is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. And sometimes is it fair to say that you might
get a description, you go there and it's something that wasn't
in the description. It's something a little bit different.
A. It's probably a little bit different to make a good teaser
to get into it. It might not be the exact.
Q. All right. Sometimes the advertising or promotion or
puffing is somewhat false; is that correct, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And is "Lolita" a common term used in that
industry?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. And does the term "Lolita" always lead you to
a site involving illegal child porno pictures?
A. No, sir.
Q. All right. Sometimes a site could have the name Lolita
something or another in the name, and you go there and it's
quite obvious that the pictures are adults; is that correct,
sir?
A. Adults made to look young.
Q. All right. It could be either younger adults or dressed
up young or with lollipops or some feature to try to make them
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look young; is that right?
A. It's been my experience it's the younger teenager, the
low-end teenager -- I say "low-end," 18, 19.
Q. All right. But would it be fair to say that it is not
uncommon to go to a Lolita site and actually end up seeing an
image of an adult male or female that's engaged in some sort of
sexual activity?
A. That's correct.
Q. All right. And so would it be fair to say that the names
of the sites don't necessarily, in every case, tell you what
you're going to end up getting?
A. That's correct.
Q. All right. Now, do you know how many -- I talked about
AVS. You get the list of sites and you can click on those and
they transport you to that system, and, actually, for one price
you can buy access to many sites, thousands of sites, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And, incidentally, are there other businesses that were in
operation, either then or now, that are in the business of
adult verification, that is, charging people, giving them ID's
and passwords, to go look at adult sites?
A. Yes, sir, there's many.
Q. All right. One of the more common or maybe the largest,
are you familiar with a company named Adult Check?
A. Sure am.
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Q. All right. And, essentially, you go to Adult Check and
provide a credit card and they give you passwords and user
names that allow you access to pornographic sites?
A. Yes.
Q. The KeyZ system was different from AVS in that you only
got one site with the purchase, correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. All right. And could you go to KeyZ, any KeyZ page, and
see a list of the sites that they had to offer? Did it work
the same way as AVS in that regard?
A. They didn't list the whole gamut of sites, like
hyperlinks. But as you've seen here, usually the banners would
be advertisements on different sites. There was no way all the
sites that I could think of, but there was just enough that you
could click on for advertisements on those pages that I bought.
Q. All right. Would it be fair to say that there was nowhere
you could go on a KeyZ or Landslide site, that at least you're
aware of, that would list all of the sites available through
KeyZ?
A. That's correct.
Q. Typically, you would have to find a site name somewhere,
go to it, and then realize that it went through the KeyZ
system.
A. Yes. If you clicked on anything, whoever was providing
that verification system, you would have to go through them to
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get it. It if it happened to be KeyZ, then you would take the
KeyZ.
Q. All right. Do you know how many sites, from your
investigation, how many sites were you able to determine were
under the KeyZ system?
A. I personally?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. I web-captured and videotaped, I believe, 12. I went to
16 others.
Q. All right.
A. So I would say 28 sites.
Q. Do you know how many sites were under the KeyZ system,
or was there any way for you to determine how many there were, if
there were 28 or thousands?
A. They were all KeyZ.
Q. Okay. I understand the sites you went to were all KeyZ,
but do you know how many sites were using the KeyZ system?
A. Oh, I have no way of knowing. I think after the fact
there is a number. I'm not sure of that number.
Q. All right. I mean, was it hundreds or thousands of sites?
A. I would say hundreds.
All right. So there were quite a large number of sites
that used the KeyZ system that you never went to;
is that correct?
A. Yes.
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Q. Did you say 28 that you actually went to in some form or
fashion?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Were any of those -- Did any of those sites
depict material that was depictions of adults engaged in sexual
activity?
A. No, sir.
Q. All right. Were there any images captured on Web Buddy on
any of the sites that you went to, I mean individual images
that were of adults engaged in sexual activity that did not
also have children?
A. Yeah, I thought there was a couple of the links or a
couple of the hyperlinks in there had adults, just strictly
adults. But it was in the same site that happened to have the
children in it, also.
Q. All right. You don't know whether the other sites that
used the KeyZ system had any children-type material in them at
all, do you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The ones you didn't go to?
A. Well, the 28 that I went to, I know. The rest of them, I
have no idea.
Q. All right. I gather when you were doing your search --
how would you -- what were the things you did to determine what
sites -- I know you got the information from Inspector Adams as
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to that one site.
A. Yes.
Q. You could look at some banners that might advertise other
sites. That would give you information on going to those
sites, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. How else did you try to search for sites that might
involve child pornography? Did you use any search engines or
anything of that sort?
A. No. Basically, all the links that were on these pages,
I'd click on a link. I'd click on a banner, and if it came up
to a page that said "signup," I put my mouse over the signup
deal, and at the bottom it would say keyz.com. I'd click on
it, and the KeyZ page would come up to sign up for that
particular page.
Q. All right. Did you ever search for, through any system
connected with KeyZ, did you try to seek out any adult --
material depicting adults?
A. I did a search on Deja News. It's basically like a news
group search where I would type in keyz.com, and what would
come up would be postings of people wanting to trade KeyZ
passwords to different areas they went to on the news groups to
make these postings.
Same thing with Landslide. As far as actually typing in a
search engine "KeyZ" and coming up with some sites, no.
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Q. All right. The adult classifieds system that you talked
about, are you with me?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. That was a list of postings where we saw some
that involved discussions that appeared to be pedophile-type
individuals trying to communicate with other people; is that
right?
A. I would say that was fair.
Q. All right. And, actually, on that system there would be
literally pages and pages of these postings; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Do you know how those postings were placed there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And how were they placed there?
A. Go to the adult classified section, go to the bottom, make
your posting, give yourself your e-mail -- the same basic kind
of signup and say "post," and it's posted.
Q. All right. It's posted automatically, is it not?
A. Yes.
Q. There's nothing that's reviewed, and we'll review it and
let you know later whether we're going to post it. It's as
soon as you put it in and the correct information, it's on the
classifieds; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. I could put on there, "I'm selling hot dogs tomorrow at
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this location," and if I put it on there, that's what would be
on my posting; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. I could put, "I'm trading nuclear secrets that I've stolen
from the government," on there and if that's what I put on
there, that would instantly appear on the adult classifieds;
is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. And some of the material in the adult
classifieds certainly had to do with discussions about trading
what sounded like they wanted to trade some child pornography,
that type of posting was on there; is that correct?
A. That and actual meetings, actual physical contacts with
children.
Q. All right. And you don't know whether anybody at
Landslide or one of the Reedys ever reviewed any of those
postings when they were placed on there, do you?
A. I don't know.
Q. Have you ever placed an ad in the newspaper to sell something?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. Is it your understanding if you put an ad in the
newspaper, they get it, they review it, they have to
typeset it so it's printed out in the morning paper; is that
right?
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A. Yes.
Q. So it's not instantly like this adult classified system,
is it?
A. Yes, sir, that's correct.
Q. All right. Now, when we're looking at one of these web
sites, particularly let's talk about the videos for a moment.
You can take your mouse that's hooked up to your computer and
it controls a -- it might be an arrow or a hand, some sort of
cursor, that moves across the screen; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you can put that over various things within that image
-- that whole page you're looking at, and sometimes it will
give you additional information about where something else is
located; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. So, for example, if we're looking at the Landslide home
page, I think it has Landslide with the big orange kind of
background or something. We could see a banner that says,
"For Child Porn Click Here." Do you recall that image?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know when you put your mouse over that image, did
it give you some additional information about where that was?
A. I believe it did.
Q. Do you know what that information was, sir?
A. My best recollection is that it went to the kintamani.com
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or Matahari site.
Q. A11 right. It didn't go -- It went to another site off of
Landslide's site; is that right, sir?
A. It went to the first page of Lolita World, basically.
Q. All right. Now, the Web Buddy, that's a software program
that one could buy commercially; is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know whether that program has been discontinued?
A. It has.
Q. All right. It's no longer supported by the company that
issues it?
A. It's supported. I just received an upgrade from them.
If you already have it, they'll keep you updated, but from this
point forward they're not advertising to sell it anymore.
Q. All right. Now, the internet, is it a -- When you go on
the internet and look at an image at a particular date and
time, does the internet work in such a way that if you go to
that same location the next day you might see that image, you
might see something completely different?
A. (Pause) I'm not sure what you mean.
Q. All right. Does surfing the internet actually only
capture a specific moment in time? In other words, if I type
in -- Well, if I type in disney.com, I'm going to get,
presumably, if somebody has bought that address, probably Walt
Disney, I'm going to get a page to look at; is that right?
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A. Yes.
Q. If I type in that same address tomorrow or next week, am I
always going to get the same page, exact same images?
A. It would depend on the site. More than likely you'll get
the same address. Usually -- I imagine Disney is a pretty big
company. They'll have the same static IP address that they
would use all the time. They might update their page with
different news items on it. They might have different events
going on. They might have a lot of things, but the actual guts
or the skeleton of the page will always be the same. But you
might have different things in there every day, just like you
would go to dallasmorningnews.com. Every day it's updated but
it's still the same page.
Q. All right. But what you see, the images on there, can be
completely different at dallasmorningnews.com because news
changes.
A. Exactly.
Q. All right. So if I go to dallasmorningnews.com today and
I go there in an hour, it might even be different; is that
right?
A. Especially these days and times.
Q. All right. If I wanted to go find out about the Florida
voting, I'm going to have to go there a lot to keep up with it,
probably; is that right?
A. Probably, yes, sir.
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Q. All right. Now, who does those changes? Is it the people
running dallasmorningnews.com that can make those changes?
A. I'm sure they have a webmaster that keeps up with
everything, that his job is to make sure the site is up all the
time, that everything is running fine, to make sure all the
scripts and the source information is the same, to make sure
it's always online.
Q. All right. Do you know whether or not, if I'm a user or
subscriber or somebody who wants to go on the internet and look
at something, that when I go there and say, "I want to look at
your pages and I want to look at your pictures or your text or
your news," or whatever you have, can it tell who I am?
A. (Pause) I would say it could.
Q. All right. Could it, if I had been there before,
customize the information that it sends me, to what it thinks
my preferences are?
A. I don't know what you mean.
Q. All right. Well, if I go to -- When you sign up for
America Online, you might surf through a variety of things. If
you have an affinity for antique automobiles, do you know
whether America Online can start throwing up pages when you
sign on that direct you to businesses that deal with that sort
of subject matter?
A. I'm sure there are scripts out there that if you visit
certain sites, you get -- your computer is engaged now to start
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receiving advertisements and stuff, or certain things, spam
e-mails and things like that.
Q. Okay. You can go to a site, look at something and not be
interested in it all, and then your e-mail suddenly fills up
with information that you didn't ask for that deals with that
subject matter; is that right?
A. It could.
Q. All right. So somehow somebody is able to see who you are
when you go there in order to be able to do that; is that
right?
A. Well, I think that's correct and not correct. As far as
knowing who you are, I think most of that stuff is done hit and
miss. Like your example was AOL, America Online, I have a
certain screen name. They got companies out there that can
just basically take a program and run different categories of
your screen names and names and numbers and just run the whole
gamut. Some will hit and some will miss. My screen name might
be SM whatever. So they'll run SM in different categories with
numbers and alphabets, and it's just a -- you'll hit some. And
there are some companies that will sell your information to
other companies to start getting spam e-mails.
Q. All right. Spam is unwanted advertising e-mails wanting
you to buy something or go somewhere?
A, Just like in your mailbox.
Q. All right.
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A. Junk mail, as we call it.
Q. Okay. Now, you said something earlier this morning about
something called a URL. What is that, sir?
A. It's an acronym for Universal Registry Locater where it's
the www whatever. There's a registry out there that documents
and categorizes. It's the yellow pages of the internet.
Q. All right. And essentially -- Actually the complete
address might be http://www. and then a URL; is that right?
A. Well, the whole thing is the URL, but that's the user
friendly name. That name is really an IP address.
Q. Right. In other words, disney.com is simple for the user
to use because they think I want to go to something named
Disney and that's likely to be what they'd call it and that's
usually where you're transported, right?
A. Exactly.
Q. But the internet actually uses those long numbers like 205
dot and some other numbers?
A. It's an octet configuration.
Q. But the individual user is going to have difficulty
remembering these long series of digits, so they have that
friendly user name, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know whether or not I can type in a URL,
http://www.disney.com or anything else and end up not at
disney.com but somewhere else, sort of a call forwarding
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system?
A. You mean like you would hope that you would type in
disney.com but get something else but still use the same
address? Is that what you're saying?
Q. Yes, sir. When I type in -- I'm just using an example.
Disney probably wouldn't do this, but I type in disney.com and
I hit enter wanting to go to disney.com and up pops a page and
I look at the URL and I'm somewhere else. I've been redirected
somehow. Does that occur on the internet?
A. I haven't come across it. I'm not saying that it would
never occur. I'm trying to figure out what your example would
be. I've never seen that, that I've done.
Q. Okay. So you've never been redirected by typing in an
address and ended up somewhere that you didn't type in?
A. I get redirected all the time from within a site, clicking
on one banner and then five or six other advertisement banners
pops up, different pages, and be redirected here or be
redirected there. But as far as typing in the initial site and
going somewhere else, I've never done that. It's usually after
I get into a site that I get redirected to everywhere.
THE COURT: I think he's talking about an involuntary
redirection.
THE WITNESS: I've never come across that, sir.
BY MR. BALL:
Q. Okay. Do you know from your experience whether that's --
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whether you've come across it or whether that occurs or can it
technologically occur, or do you know?
A. I wouldn't say that, sir. I would not know.
Q. Okay. The banner ad system or banner exchange system, is
that used in, not only adult businesses, but other types of
businesses on the internet?
A. I believe it is.
Q. All right. And do you know what the purpose, is it to
increase traffic to users, the people that are participating in
these web sites?
A. I think it's that, plus I think it's also a money-making
machine.
Q. All right. And do you know whether or not those banners
rotate, that is, they're not -- Let me give you an example. If
I go to disney.com, there might be a banner, for example, that
says, you know, purchase the Lion King movie. And I can click
on that and it goes to something that's advertising that movie.
Do you know whether or not that web site, let's say disney.com,
can rotate that banner? That the next time I go there it's
advertising Little Mermaid or some other thing. In other
words, it's not fixed on the page. It rotates somehow.
A. I've seen that, yes, sir.
Q. All right. Could you determine from your surfing through
Landslide or these foreign web sites that actually hosted the
pictures, whether or not any of those banners were on a
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rotation system? Did they change?
A. When you say "the banners," are you talking about the
advertisements for some of the sites?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. It seems that some would change, and you go into it
another time, it might be a different banner up there. Some
would be the same and some would disappear.
Q. And sometimes they would just be gone; is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So let me see, if I could type in seeking to look at a
specific page that might contain a banner advertisement, and I
might go there now and it might say "For Child Porn Click
Here," and I might go there tomorrow and it might be some other
advertisement, is that right, the same page by rotation?
A. If you're talking about this particular banner, that
banner was always there and then it just disappeared one day.
I never saw it again.
Q. All right. Was there anything on any of the child
pornographic sites that you went to that indicated that any of
the pictures, the images, was ever submitted for any kind of
review to Landslide or any of its business concerns or
employees?
A. I don't think there was. I don't know what they would
have been, how it would have showed that.
Q. All right. Is it illegal to go on the internet and look
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for and obtain child pornographic images? I mean, just to look
at them. Not to copy them or anything, but to just actually go
there and start looking at them? Is that an illegal activity?
A. Well, again, there's -- On the internet, if you do look at
a picture, it's basically --- It's saved to your computer, so
it will be on your computer just by looking at it. So in that
aspect, I would say yes. Accessing child pornography is
illegal.
Q. All right. And so let me see if I understood your last
answer correctly. If I went on the internet and however I got
there was looking at a child pornographic image and I went,
"Oh, my gosh. I don't want to look at that." And I push the X
box in the corner or something to get out of there, it's still
on my hard drive, correct?
A. It's in the form of -- in your temporary internet files,
which computers do that.
Q. All right. And it remains there unless it's overwritten
by other data put on my computer sufficient to where there's
not room and it gets bumped off. Is that how that works?
A. Or if you delete it.
Q. All right. Well, If you delete it, it's still there. It
can be found through software programs that can do that; is
that right?
A. Unless your cache is so built up and it kept being
overwritten and everything that it's basically disintegrated in
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there. And then there's programs out there that can act like a
shredder for your temporary internet files that -- some of the
programs we talked about in getting deleted files, you won't be
able to access them.
Q. Okay. And let me ask you: If I -- if somebody told me
that a site had child pornography on it, and I turned on my
computer and went on the internet and went and looked at it and
saw the child pornography on there, I have violated the law by
doing that; is that right?
A. Well, you'd have to pay for it, I guess, to access it, to
be able to see the site, to see the pictures.
Q. All right. Well, the law doesn't distinguish whether it's
free or paid for, it's illegal just for me to go there and look
at it; is that right?
A. I would say that it was.
Q. All right. And so it would be illegal for Tom Reedy or an
employee of Landslide to go and look at child pornography on
the internet, wouldn't it?
A. I'm not sure what you mean as far as looking. I mean,
just to go into a site and looking?
Q. Well, if someone says, "Mr. Reedy, there's child porno on
this site you've got here." If he goes there and looks at it
and sees child pornography he's violating the law, isn't he?
A. Hopefully he reports it and does steps to take care of it,
get rid of it, report it, things like that. I think an
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individual is covered under the law of having knowledge of
reporting laws.
Q. All right. Well, it would certainly be well advised for
that individual to notify law enforcement and not go surfing
and looking at it themselves; is that right?
A. Exactly.
Q. All right. Now, these images that we've seen in a number
of the exhibits, do you know how -- If I have a photograph of
somebody, I can hand it to someone else and we can see how
that's moved from one person to another. But on the internet
it works differently, of course, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Is the image reduced to some sort of code or something
before it's sent across the internet lines? Or do you know how
that works?
A. I would say that all computer images are text or computer
language, and the computer basically decodes it where you see a
picture. It's all X's and O's, or I's and O's.
Q. Are you familiar with the term "binary code"?
A. Exactly.
Q. Okay. So, actually, it's reduced to some sort of language
that might be a series of numbers. It's shipped across the
internet, and when it gets to your computer, your computer, if
it has the proper software, sees that and knows how to put it
all together to put an image up on the screen; is that right?
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A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And is it possible for individuals to actually
create images which are completely fictional? I mean, that
event never occurred that's shown on the computer screen?
A. You'll have to run that by me again.
Q. All right. I assume you might have seen movies like Star
Wars or the Matrix or Terminator, or things like that; and you
see things that certainly look real but because we have a
general understanding of what's possible and what's not, we
realize it's not; correct, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. So images can be created from things that
didn't -- from computers or from other techniques when the
event never actually took place; is that correct?
A. Are you talking about computer images?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Sure.
Q. All right. And so if someone has the proper knowledge and
software and techniques, one can create a picture of an
individual that's completely fictional. That individual never
existed; is that true, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. And I don't know if you saw Time Magazine here recently,
because of the presidential, they morphed or put together
George Bush and Al Gore and put them into a single person and
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said, "Well, let's make this person a president because we
can't decide who it actually is." Did you see that or
something like it?
A. I didn't see that particular deal, but morphing is -- I'm
familiar with that.
Q. All right. Morphing is actually taking two images that
actually exist and somehow putting them together to create a
new image; is that right?
A. Simplistically, yes. Like putting somebody's head on
somebody's body, or vice versa.
Q. All right. So I can take a picture of a part of one
person's body and take a picture of someone else's head and put
it on there and make it look like a new person; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And sometimes that can be done with not so
much sophistication where it looks rather obvious that it's
phony, and other times it can be quite sophisticated and look
quite good; is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And, also, you can create images if you know what binary
code to put in that appear to be a person that's not morphed
from two photographs. It's just completely created from
fiction; is that right?
A. I'm not really familiar with it as far as doing binary
codes, but if you're saying that you can morph an image, I
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don't know how to do that by just using binary codes. But you
can take two images with your computer programs and morph the
two images.
THE COURT: Let me have a conference at the bench
with counsel. No record yet.
(Off-record discussion with attorneys at the bench.)
BY MR. BALL:
Q. Detective, let me talk to you just a second again about
the adult classified postings.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are you familiar -- You've been doing, I think, this sort
of work, I think, in this specific area for about ten years.
Did I understand that correctly?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. At the beginning of your work, was the
internet in existence in the way it is today, or was there some
different systems likes BBS's that were more commonly used?
A. I guess when the internet first started it was basically
BBS, bulletin board services. I guess it really didn't start
going good until like 1995 when everybody knew about the World
Wide Web and getting access to it.
Q. Did bulletin board services work similar to this
classified system in that people could post things about
various subjects?
A. The only difference with the bulletin board service is
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you'd have to basically ask to get access to become a member,
basically. Then it was postings just -- Who all the members
were made postings, and you could reply to the different
members.
Q. Okay. And the adult classifieds as seen on the Landslide
site was essentially free, was it not?
A. And it even says that it is, yes, sir.
Q. No purchase of anything through KeyZ or AVS was required
to post whatever you wanted to on the classifieds.
A. Yes.
Q. Have you participated in investigations of child
pornography suspects and pedophile-type individuals in
sting-type operations to try to catch them on the internet?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. And is it a common technique to go into
bulletin boards or classifieds and pretend to be another
pedophile in order to start a communication with someone who
really is to see if you can apprehend individuals that are
engaged in that activity?
A. That's one technique, yes, sir.
Q. You've used that, have you not, in your work?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. So one could look at a posting that says, "I've got
dirty pictures of children to sell," and that could be someone
who actually does, or it could conceivably be a sting operation
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that a law enforcement agency is running; is that right?
A. I would have to defer and say it could be, but basically
probably not, because of the guidelines that we go by for
entrapment issues and stuff like that.
Q. All right. Certainly you don't put on there, "We're the
police and all pedophiles come talk to us," because you wouldn't
get any traffic; is that right?
A. Right. But I wouldn't put on there, "I have a 12-year old
girl," either.
Q. All right. And do you know what the techniques are for
other police agencies across the country?
A. Some.
Q. Not all, certainly?
A. Not all, no, sir.
Q. You're talking about the way the Dallas Police Department
would run their business; is that right, sir?
A. The Dallas Police Department, some of the Task Forces that
I'm assigned to, the federal agencies I'm assigned to.
Q. All right. I want to ask you about some specific
exhibits, and I'm going to need the assistance of the folks
over here.
What I would like to do is pull up SN-A-l, which is that
initial video. That's the only one I'm going to show you, and
I'm not going to play the whole thing. But I want to ask you
about some specific things that we saw, because it went by
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rather quickly. Would that be all right, sir?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. Up there at the top is where you type the URL. It
looks like it says http, but it's kind of hard to read. Is
that where you type that in, where your hand is, up at the top
here?
A. Right, yes, sir.
Q. Okay. Down here when you scroll over something, it types
in where that leads to down here; is that right?
A. Yes, sir. Whatever you're typing in or whatever you
scroll over while its loading, it will show an IP address or a
URL where it is.
You can see it there at the bottom now where I just
clicked on -- There's another one that's clicking and it shows
at the bottom.
Q. And this is a scroll bar, because sometimes the whole page
won't appear on the screen?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And this is the Landslide home page?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. It's got KeyZ and AVS links that take you to other pages?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. This is AVS, and you can click on this and it will say
participating sites and it will actually list the sites you
described a minute ago, sir?
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A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know how that image "Child Porn Click Here" got
there?
A. Technically I don't, sir.
Q. Do you know whether another webmaster put that there on
this site, or if that's possible, sir?
A. I'm not sure, sir.
Q. All right. Down here it says "Sex Swap," I believe,
"exit/enter." Is that another banner exchange program in the
sex adult industry, or do you know?
A. I think if you click on "enter," you'll go to the
advertisement page. And if you hit "exit," to tell you the
truth, I've never actually done that. But it's supposed to take you
completely out of the site because you don't want to
have anything to do with it.
Q. All right. Those two buttons on the banner take you
completely out of Landslide's site, correct, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. And this page that says warning, it's warning you that
this is a controversial site with all the kinds of bad stuff
on it. That's not on Landslide or KeyZ. It's somewhere else,
correct?
A. I have left Landslide and now I'm in kintamani.com.
Q. Right. You're somewhere else. This page is not hosted or
created by Landslide, correct, sir?
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A. I would say that's correct.
Q. All right. And this page is created by someone who runs
the Kintamani, or whatever that name is, correct, sir?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. This information up here is the -- This is
America Online.
A. No, sir. That's Microsoft Internet Explorer, and that's
just the tools.
Q. This is their stuff, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That's on the borders?
A. All that on the bottom is all my software programs that I
have on my computer. Up at the top is your --
Q. And, again, we're just scrolling down that Kintamani page.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. It's got this same child porn banner?
A. Right. I just clicked in to go to the home page of Lolita
World. I'm still at Lolita World.
Q. All right. And this is a page hosted somewhere else other
than Landslide, correct, sir?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know whether these images are passing through any
of Landslide's computers at this point that you're looking at
them, or is Landslide and KeyZ completely out of the loop at
this juncture, as far as the transmission of this image?
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A. Well, the way I look at it and the way I've seen this, I
think it's still separate from Landslide. It's not going
through Landslide.
Q. All right. None of this image is going through Landslide
or KeyZ, is your understanding, correct?
A. Not from right here, no, sir.
Q. All right. And that would be the same as with the
individual pictures or images. That would be taking the same
kind of route; is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Or the route that was indicated by those hops, those maps,
that shows the various computers; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Again, this image here is not on the Landslide site. It's
on another site, correct?
A. That's correct. This is still Lolita World.
Q. All right. Do you know who the owner or webmaster is for
Lolita World?
A. Offhand, I don't. If I heard the name I'd probably
recognize it.
Q. This page says right here, this site is protected by KeyZ
and there's a child pornographic image. Do you know how that
got on the Kintamani site?
A. I'm not really sure other than the fact it's a -- You'd
have to have a KeyZ to get to the site.
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Q. Okay.
A. So it would be on all the sites that would -- you would
have to buy into, you would have to click on KeyZ to sign up
for it, to purchase it.
Q. All right. But what we're here looking at is it's got
KeyZ' name and a picture over here on the left. You don't know
how that got on there, do you?
A. I really don't, sir.
Q. Or whether Landslide authorized that particular image to
be next to its name?
A. I'm not sure, sir.
Q. All right.
MR. BALL: I guess that's the end of that. Thank
you.
THE COURT: While you're looking, that gives me an
opportunity to say let's take a break.
MR. BALL: All right. Thank you.
THE COURT: Let's try to return here about 3:15.
(Court in recess, 3:03 p.m. until 3:21 p.m.)
THE COURT: All right. Let's be seated.
You may proceed, sir.
MR. BALL: Thank you, Your Honor.
BY MR. BALL:
Q. Detective Nelson, let me direct your attention --
MR. BALL: If I could have SN-A-2.3, and I
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borrowed your pointer here, the government's pointer.
BY MR. BALL:
Q. This document here is something telling the customer what
they get with KeyZ. Is that kind of what that's about?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. Is there anything on that document -- Is that
document on a KeyZ or Landslide-run site, hosted by them as you
understood it?
A. That's from the KeyZ.
Q. Site, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. In other words, that's one of the Landslide
documents; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And there's nothing on that document that says that as a
customer you get child pornography, is there?
A. No, sir.
Q. In fact, there's no reference to child pornography or what
the content of any sites are on that document other than
quality content or some general statement of that nature; is
that right, sir?
A. That's correct.
MR. BALL: Can I have SN-A-2.4.
BY MR. BALL:
Q. This is as a site owner you get -- This is directed to the
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webmasters that are somewhere else on the advantages of doing
business with KeyZ. It's kind of a promotional document in
that regard; is that right, sir?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. There's nothing in there that says that -- in
the language in there that says we're the official site for
child pornography, or we want child pornography pictures, or
anything of that sort on this document, is there, sir?
A. No, sir.
Q. And at the bottom there's a testimonial that's in green.
It's a little hard to read, but I believe you read it earlier.
THE COURT: They've enlarged it.
MR. BALL: Okay.
BY MR. BALL:
Q. It refers to -- It's like somebody saying, hey, I used
this KeyZ and it was great. I multiplied my income. It was a
good deal. That's kind of what that's about?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. And it says their site was lolitasex.com.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know who the webmaster is for lolitasex.com?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know whether that's a site in Germany?
A. I don't know, sir.
Q. Do you know what the content of that site is?
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A. No, sir.
Q. All right. That site could be adult content, such as we
described the use of the term "Lolita" sometimes; is that
right?
A. It could be, yes, sir.
Q. Okay. That site, that testimonial, doesn't say anything
about child pornography other than reference to Lolita sex,
does it?
A. That's correct.
MR. BALL: Could I have SN-A-2.6.
BY MR. BALL:
Q. All right. Detective Nelson, that says counter log file
for keyz.com, last 50 visitors; is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. It tells the person what visitor they are and there have
been a certain number of visitors, and that many visitors
yesterday and that sort of information at the top; is that
right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, let's take a look at this first line, 209.81.226.49,
that's an IP address like we talked about disney.com is user
friendly, and then that's actually the numerical system that
the internet uses to go places; is that right?
A. Exactly, yes, sir.
Q. And this document is telling KeyZ where people came from,
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is it not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. It's not necessarily telling KeyZ or anyone where they
were sent to. It says where they came from; is that correct?
A. The way the log system works is when your site is hit or
accessed, it logs the IP address of that person accessing the
site. So these are IP addresses of people accessing keyz.com.
Q. All right. So each of these is where someone came from to
get to keyz.com, correct, sir?
A. Yes. That's what I believe it is.
Q. It doesn't necessarily mean they signed up for anything,
does it? They just clicked there. They visited.
A. I can't tell from that, sir.
Q. You don't know whether all these people signed up or they
just went to that page and said I don't want this and left.
You can't tell.
A. I have no idea. I have no way of knowing, sir.
Q. Thank you.
MR. BALL: Let me have SN-C-2.2, please.
BY MR. BALL:
Q. I believe this is going to relate to the adult
classifieds. All right. Each one of -- These are the postings
that people can do instantly that we talked about earlier;
is that right?
A. Yes.
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Q. So this individual, this is an individual posting. This
is another one here. There appears to be one over here, et
cetera, on down the line; is that right?
A. The page expands, the full page, so there's probably 2- or
300 postings on there.
Q. All right. And some of them have references or material
like this reference about I'm 15 years old and having sex with
his sister and all that; is that right?
A. The majority of them, I would say, yes, sir.
Q. Some of it doesn't seem to have any reference to children,
though, is that true? It's typically sexually oriented
material.
A. There is a few adult stuff in there. The majority I
thought was trading passwords and for accessing child
pornography, trading child pornography.
Q. If you come to one of these postings and it's trading
passwords, actually, they're defrauding a web site. Assuming
the web site is engaged in legal activity for a moment, they're
defrauding them because they're giving passwords out that the
person getting them hasn't paid for; is that right?
A. Yes, sir. And there's ways that a lot of web sites
counteract that.
Q. All right. But, I mean, it's not to -- If I'm running
Landslide or keyz.com, it's not to my advantage to sell a
password to somebody, collect my $29.95, give 60 percent to the
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webmaster, keep 40 percent, and then have that person that
bought it give it away free on a classified ad to 100 people.
It wouldn't be to my financial advantage for that to occur,
would it?
A. Oh, no.
Q. Because those people, if the webmaster hadn't counteracted
it, may be going and looking at the pictures for nothing; is
that right?
A. Exactly. As I say, these people trade passwords all the
time so they don't have to pay the money.
Q. And as offensive, for example, as this posting is, it's
not against the law to type those words and put that on there.
Maybe it ought to be, but it's not, is it?
A. I'm not technically sure about that. I believe it is. I
would have to defer and see what the law is, but I think when
you advertise to have sex with a kid or to sell a kid or to get
child pornography, I think that in itself is illegal,
especially over the internet.
Q. All right. And I gather you didn't go behind all these to
see what these people were really up to, what they actually had
or were doing what they said?
A. A few of them I did.
Q. You did some?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. BALL: Let me have SN-C-3.
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NELSON - CROSS - BALL VOL II, 312
BY MR. BALL:
Q. This is the e-mail you get fairly quickly when you sign up
for a KeyZ site; is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And it's from -- regarding KeyZ, your account, and it's
telling you thanks for choosing KeyZ. It gives you your
password and your user name here, SM something or another,
Corvette is your password. How long; it says you've subscribed
to Lolita Hardcore. That's a URL where that's supposed to be
located, I gather, correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And it tells you a little bit about using their system; is
that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And other than who it's being sent to and the date, time,
and the password/user name, and the time, money, and the name
of the site information, a lot of this stuff is the same on
each one of those; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. And this document and the others like it
conceivably can be auto-generated by a computer and no human
being touched it or sent it; is that right?
A. Well, I guess you'd have to say someone has to send it,
unless you had an automatic mailer. But somebody would have to
type in the -- I would think, type in a certain site name,
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because everybody didn't have the same user name or password. I'm
just assuming that had to be typed in, and then it could
automatically be sent after that, sure.
Q. Okay. So you're assuming that this data here, like
password, user name, Lolita Hardcore, because it's specific to
this transaction, would have been typed in by someone.
A. That's what my assumption would be, sir.
Q. All right.
MR. BALL: Let me have SN-D-2.2.
BY MR. BALL:
Q. All right. I guess an example of one of these maps with
the hopping, if I could get that part.
This supposedly is you, correct, up here?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Dallas, Texas? And this shows that the transaction from
your computer to Lolita World, which is this numerical address,
went through these steps to ultimately to Reston, Virginia, a
network, Bell Atlantic, correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, are you telling us that -- Well, is this a software
program that produces this map or hopping list?
A. Yes, sir. Other than VisualRoute there's other software
programs that does the same thing. Just the look and feel is
different, but they all map the hops to the different servers,
and they do put a map at the bottom to show the line from
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Dallas to wherever it ends up at, and the bottom portions are
always where they end up, you can click on to find out who it
registered to, who is the webmaster, who is in charge of the
web site, and things like that.
Q. All right. Now, this location information, are you
telling us this is where that computer is located, or that's
where ICon CMT Corp. is registered, or do you know, sir?
A. Well, some of these webmasters, when it says Reston,
Virginia, if you have a contact person, the actual web site
might be somewhere close, like in Maryland. It might be -- The
IP address, Bell Atlantic, has a whole string of IP addresses.
But they have so many that they might lease some out to smaller
companies, and in this particular case Bell Atlantic leased out
a portion of IP addresses to a software ISP and they were where
the pictures actually were.
Q. All right. So, I mean, do you know whether the pictures
at Lolita World were located on a machine in Reston, Virginia,
or could it have been somewhere else?
A. It was in Maryland, I believe it was.
Q. That's not a result of what you could determine here.
That was some further information that was developed?
A. Yes, sir. Bell Atlantic, like I said, they have a big
block of IP addresses, and they have such a big block that they
basically lease some IP addresses out.
Q. With regard to any of the images that were shown this
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morning and this afternoon, were any of those images ever
seized on any computer where they were originally housed?
A. I believe at the very first part of the investigation one
web site for a week, I believe they captured the images where
they were.
Q. One web site?
A. I'm not sure if it's one or more. I know there was one
hosting company that had two or three of the sites. In other
words, the webmaster used this particular ISP, but he had like
six or seven sites. And I believe during a week period of time
an agency captured people logging into that particular site,
and the pictures were there on that particular site.
Q. All right, sir.
MR. BALL: Could I have SN-A-2.8, please.
BY MR. BALL:
Q. This is the KeyZ usage agreement; is that right, sir?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. Now, this is a document located on one of the
Landslide or the KeyZ sites?
A. That front part that showed all the different sections of
KeyZ, user agreement, webmaster. And this particular document
here is the usage agreement that they posted on their site.
Q. All right. There's, like, maybe on their home page or
somewhere in the process you get -- you can look at this
agreement that's supposed to be the agreement between the
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subscriber, who is the person wanting to look at something, and
KeyZ or Landslide, which is the provider; is that right?
A. It's pretty standard in the industry.
Q. All right. And part of the agreement that's in writing
from KeyZ web site says in paragraph one here:
"Any services provided to the subscriber by Provider,
may only be used for lawful purposes. Transmission or
storage of any information, data, or material in violation
of any subscriber country," and I'm looking here, "U.S.
Federal, State, local community, regulation or law
prohibited. This includes, but is not limited to,
material protected by copyright, trade secret, threatening
material, or obscene material, or any other statute."
That's a part of this usage agreement, is that true,
sir?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. BALL: Could I have SN-A-2.9, please.
BY MR. BALL:
Q. When you go to your -- Let's say you're at Lolita World
and you say, "Well, I want to buy this site," you click on a
signup deal and you get this signup page where I think you told
us you can put in your name -- well, that you have to, I guess,
name, address, credit card stuff, et cetera, right, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. This has -- And is this page on a Landslide or a
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KeyZ site, this particular page?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. You've gone from Lolita World. Now you have gone
to a Landslide or a KeyZ site to be seeing this page and
entering this information.
A. Yes, sir. This is the signup for Lolita World.
Q. All right. And up here it's got the word "Lolita World"
on the signup page and then some additional information?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know how that signup page was created?
A. No, sir.
Q. All right.
MR. BALL: Could I have SN-A-2.10.
BY MR. BALL:
Q. Is this a page that's on a KeyZ or Landslide site?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what was the category? It doesn't have a title on it.
Where was this?
A. Basically, I guess it's like a trouble shooting. If
something goes wrong, here's what you do.
Q. Okay.
A. And when you contact them make sure you put your user
name, the URL, the problem you're having, give them your e-mail
address, and we'll respond to you.
Q. Okay. And up at the top in rather large writing it says,
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in part:
"We are not responsible for content or claims made by
the webmaster, we simply provide access! If you are
having a problem with content on the site, please contact
the webmaster. Buyer beware."
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that's in bold language at the beginning of the
document?
A. Yes.
Q. Another part of this document, coming on down, you see:
"The adult material floating around on the internet
should plain and simply not be accessible to children."
Is that part of the trouble shooting document that we're
looking at?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The only -- Let's see. "The only thing we care about is
verifying that you are or are not an adult." That's part of
the descriptive information on this page?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Let's go on down, there's a portion that's the legal
agreement.
MR. BALL: You might want to blow it up -- Well, on
the hard copy it's the bottom of the second page. The
paragraph that starts with "Landslide PO Box." There we go.
BY MR. BALL:
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NELSON - CROSS - BALL VOL II, 319
Q. All right. In this part, "Here's the legal agreement
between us: KeyZ usage agreement."
MR. BALL: And if we can go to the next paragraph.
The very next paragraph. It's on the next page. It's the very
top of the next --
(Counsel confers with government.)
BY MR. BALL:
Q. Is there more to this document than what -- It ends down
here. The last thing that the jury has seen here on the one
that's on this computer video system says, "Here's the legal
agreement between KeyZ."
A. What's the number again, sir?
Q. The usage agreement. This is number 2.10.
MR. BALL: May I approach the witness, Judge?
THE COURT: You may.
BY MR. BALL:
Q. Detective, actually, what we're using here is a way
to blow this up for the jury's ease of viewing, but the actual
exhibits sitting on the table here, let me direct your
attention and show you what's been already admitted into
evidence as SN-A-2.10, which, in part, is on this visual, but
also has a third page, if you'll look at that. I think it's
within the plastic holder.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Could you pull the third page out of the exhibit that's
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been actually admitted into evidence and look at the first
paragraph of that page, sir.
A. (Witness complies.)
Q. Are you with me?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. Could you read that first paragraph that I
believe would be the language following, "Here's the legal
agreement between us," KeyZ usage agreement.
A. Yes, sir.
"Number one: Any services provided to the subscriber
by Provider, may only be used for lawful purposes.
Transmission or storage of any information, data, or
material in violation of any subscriber country, U.S.
Federal, State, local community, regulation or law is
prohibited. This includes, but is not limited to,
material protected by copyright, trade secret, threatening
material or obscene material, or any other statute."
Q. All right. And then there are some more paragraphs with
the agreement that continue on. I won't have you read those.
Is that right, sir?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. If you'll return that to its plastic sleeve. Thank you.
A. (Witness complies.)
Q. Let me inquire in one area that I didn't ask you about
before: Are you familiar with the term "cookies"?
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A. Yes, sir.
Q. What are cookies, please, sir?
A. I guess it's -- I would have to give you a simple
explanation. I don't know what the exact technical means or
whatever. But it's, actually, when you go visit web sites,
your computer picks up cookies that allows you that if you go
back to that site again to get there quicker.
Q. All right. Do you understand it this way. If I go
to a web site and if that web site wants to, it can put a cookie
that's stored in my computer so that when I go back there it
knows I've been there.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. And it could actually customize the material
that I'm seeing; is that right?
A. Customize the material you're seeing?
Q. Well, for example, if I were to go to a financial site and
I might be interested in stock prices at the end of the day for
five companies that I'm interested in, through a cookie system,
without even telling them who I am, if I've been there before,
if they know which ones I'm interested in, the first page may
pop up and say, "Hello, Detective Nelson. Here's the closing
pricing today for Texaco, Nokia," or some other companies,
right?
A. I think so, yes, sir.
Q. They've customized, rather then just listing a bunch of
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stuff you might not be interested in; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it your understanding that cookies assist with that
kind of process?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The particular details of how it works, I gather, you're
not tuned into that?
A. No, sir, I'm not
MR. BALL: I believe that's all. Thank you, sir.
I'll pass the witness.
THE COURT: Mr. Heiskell.
MR. HEISKELL: Thank you, Your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. Detective Nelson, my name is Mike Heiskell. I represent
Janice Reedy. I have a few questions for you. If I ask you
something you don't understand, don't hesitate to stop me and
I'll start over, okay?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You've been with the Dallas PD for 26 years?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you've been in the child unit, I believe you said,
for ten years; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And prior to that were you in some vice unit or vice
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squad, if you will, as part of that?
A. I came straight from patrol.
Q. Okay. Let's get right to these dirty pictures. When we
saw these dirty pictures, and one of the things you heard us
say during the objections and taking you on voir dire
examination, was that everytime the picture showed up, the URL
address was not that of Landslide. Isn't that true?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And everytime you went to even the thumbnails, it did not
have Landslide or KeyZ at the URL address. It had Kintamani or
Matahari or some other webmaster's address, correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And you have been working on this case since the
inception; is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is this a Task Force or the FBI, the Customs and Dallas
police, et cetera?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And so I take it you've been working on the case up until
the time these people were charged with this case; is that
right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you ever find any evidence whatsoever that these folks
right here created any of these images?
A. No, sir.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
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Q. That they had a studio that took photographs of anyone
shown in any image?
A. No, sir.
Q. Now, when we talk about this routing slip, if you will, or
routing document that was shown up there before where it ended
up in Reston, Virginia, is where an image would be on some
computer somewhere, you saw that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And there were a number of those, were there not, from El
Sequndo, California, to Japan and elsewhere in the United
States even, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, when we say images are on those particular servers,
if you will, or computers, you can go there to that computer
and through some retrieval method able to pull up the image
itself; is that right? Whether it's in Reston, Virginia, or
Baltimore, Maryland, or some other place?
A. Yes, sir. And once you access the site you have free --
Q. Who's in Baltimore/Reston? Who's housing this stuff?
A. It would be the webmaster that that particular webmaster
-- I mean, excuse me, the web site that that particular
webmaster chose to use.
Q. All right. So he chooses a site for him to put those
created images, let's say, in Russia or Germany. In the United
States he's able to store it in someone's site at a server in a
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location in Baltimore or California or elsewhere, correct?
A. There's plenty of internet service providers that allow
free access to put up web sites.
Q. Are there human beings there, is what I'm trying to say.
Are there human beings there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you all go, in the course of this investigation, to
talk to or seize or talk to those people in Virginia,
Baltimore, El Segundo, California?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were they charged with anything?
A. Well, they're --
Q. Yes or no.
A. They could be charged with it. They're hosting the sites.
Q. Well, they're hosting the site. Were they charged in the
conspiracy with the webmasters or anybody?
A. I don't know if they were or not.
Q. You don't know?
A. I don't know, sir.
Q. This is your case, though, correct?
A. It's part of my case.
Q. But you don't know.
A. Well, you asked me a general question --
Q. All right. Let me go on.
A. -- has anybody been. In this particular case, no, sir.
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THE COURT: Hold on. Don't talk at the same time.
MR. HEISKELL: I'm sorry, Judge.
THE COURT: Have mercy on the court reporter.
MR. HEISKELL: Okay.
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. Let me move on to something you talked about briefly, and
that is teasers, or puffing. I believe Mr. Ball used the term
"puffing." And you used, on a couple of occasions, "teasers."
And those are particular names or domain names whereby you draw
in people to get more hits, if you will, or traffic on that
site when they think there's something there they want to see
that may be risque or on the edge of some type; is that
correct?
A. The more attractive you make your page, the more likely
somebody is going to try to want to get to it.
Q. All right. And sometimes people, webmasters, will put
these pretty horrific names up in order to get certain people
to come in and use that hit, if you will, and traffic in that
particular area. Isn't that true?
A. Well, on this particular case, I mean, people do put the
names up. But a lot of times with the name, they would have
the front page with, like I said, the teaser pictures to give
you what you think you're going to get when you get inside.
Q. Sure. And by the way, Detective Nelson, when these
people, webmasters, come up with these names, we have one of
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these in here, F'ing Little Kids. Remember that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Lolita and we've heard some others. Where do they get
those names from? Can they buy those names?
A. You say buy the names?
Q. Sure.
A. You register the name.
Q. With who?
A. It depends. There's a lot of companies out there now that
people register domain names to.
Q. So someone could go and register that name like F'ing
Little Kids.
A. Yes.
Q. And who is the main domain name or register in this
country, if you know?
A. I think the biggest is Network Solutions.
Q. Network Solutions?
A. It's a domain registry.
Q. And they make money off of registering names such as
Fucking Little Kids, correct?
A. Whoever registers the name, they have to pay for the
registry.
Q. So personnel within Network Solutions or other similar
type companies who get these requests for Preteen Sex or Little
Girls or things of that nature, they go there, they make the
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application, and the company such as Network Solutions will
charge them a fee to register that domain name, correct?
A. Yes, sir, correct.
Q. And the personnel within that company, they don't
necessarily know what's on those sites or what's going to be
placed on those sites. Isn't that true?
A. I would say that's a reasonable assumption, yes, sir.
Q. Is there a requirement that they go in to monitor the
sites, if someone goes in from XYZ Company and puts in, "I want
the domain name of Fucking Little Girls," that they are
required to go back and monitor that site?
A. I don't know, sir.
Q. So all of these names that pop up on the World Wide Web,
the internet, they have to be registered with this company such
as Network Solutions in order for someone out there to type in
that URL address, dot com, and have it pulled up?
A. Yes, sir. Your question is to have a domain registered,
you have to purchase the name, basically, so no one else can
get the name. And then you're assigned that URL and you can
put it on your web site, your ISP, and that is your domain now.
Q. Okay. And is it fair to state that Network Solutions or
other similar companies would have literally thousands, if not
-- I guess now millions, maybe, of those type of names out
there on the web?
A. Sure, yes, sir.
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Q. Now, speaking of sites, I think you told us earlier that
you were aware that keyz.com had at least 28 sites that you
were aware of?
A. KeyZ gave me access to 12 sites. They were also the
signup for 16 others.
Q. Okay. So that's a total of 28.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Would it surprise you to know that KeyZ also had
approximately 2,000 sites?
A. It wouldn't surprise me at all.
Q. It wouldn't surprise you.
A. No, sir.
Q. And what about AVS, the adult verification system run by
Landslide. They had thousands of sites as well; isn't
that true?
A. I think when I first got the site they advertised for
1700, and it was growing daily.
Q. And it was growing daily.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were they required, as far as you know, to go in
and monitor those sites on a daily or regular basis?
A. I don't know, sir.
Q. Were you there when the search warrant was executed?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How many people were in the technical support division at
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Landslide when y'all went into their offices here in Fort
Worth?
A. I would have to guesstimate. There was probably 12
people, 12, 13.
Q. Twelve people in technical support?
A. Oh, technical support. I don't know. Two or three,
maybe.
Q. Two or three?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And those two or three people were handling literally, if
you will, thousands of sites, correct?
A. Thousands of sites?
Q. Yes. That would have gone through KeyZ and/or AVS as far
as having people sign up, having traffic eventually go there
after they sign up, as far as you know.
A. I don't know what everybody's responsibility was in the
company, so I really couldn't answer that.
Q. All right.
MR. HEISKELL: Could you pull up for me SN-A-2.1.
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. SN-A-2.1 is a home page for Landslide, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And when was this downloaded, if you know? Was that in
April of '99?
A. Yes, sir.
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NELSON - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL II, 331
Q. And this home page consists of what, one page?
A. Well, the hyperlinks takes you deeper into different
pages. That's just the front page.
Q. This is the front page.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And here we see the AVS/KeyZ. In addition to that we have
badcard.com and looking.net.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And, in fact, it states "more to come."
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So these are different sites under the Landslide umbrella,
if you will.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And this was in April of '99, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And when y'all went in, in September of '99, I think you
said there were at least two or three people in the technical
side of Landslide at that point, that you recall.
A. That's what I would imagine. That's what I believe. I'm
not sure.
MR. HEISKELL: Would you take me now to SN-A-2.2,
please. And can you blow up the first -- Yes, that's fine.
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. This is essentially the company profile for Landslide,
Inc.?
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NELSON - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL II, 332
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And I'm looking at eight bullet points in this particular
paragraph about the business and what they're trying to do. Do
you see that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And if you look at number four. I don't know if you can
read that. I'll read it real quickly.
".Adult extension -- A means for better organizing
adult oriented material on the web, providing for tighter
control over unscrupulous webmasters trying to gain access
to minors."
THE COURT REPORTER: Could you please slow down.
MR. HEISKELL: I'm sorry. Let me read that again.
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. "A means for better organizing adult oriented
material on the web, providing for tighter control over
unscrupulous webmasters trying to gain access to minors."
Do you see that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And at the bottom of that --
MR. HEISKELL: If you could blow up the bottom under
"market," please.
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. The prosecutor was asking you originally on direct
examination this morning about the market. Now, this market
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reference is for online services that have -- expected to reach
sales online services of $425 billion, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, that's all online services. That's just not porn, is
it?
A. That's the way I'd read it, is just the whole internet.
Q. The whole internet.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So it's not strictly talking about adult porn or child
porn or anything. This is the whole internet.
A. That's the way I read it, sir.
Q. Okay. And what he's talking about here is how online
services is a burgeoning market and it's increasing rapidly and
we're providing another service within that market, basically;
is that correct?
A. That's correct, sir.
MR. HEISKELL: If you'd go to the next page, please.
And if you could -- "management team," could you highlight
that?
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. Detective Nelson, the management team for Landslide was
Tom Reedy, who is identified as the founder and CEO, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Other key members: Jon Reedy.
A. Yes, sir.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL II, 334
Q. Who is Jon Reedy?
A. I'm not sure.
Q. You're not sure?
A. It's his brother or his father. I'm not sure.
Q. Tom Hughes?
A. He's a -- I think he's like the head technical guy.
Q. He's a technical guy.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what do you mean by technical guy, Tom Hughes?
A. He knew the web. He knew how to put things together. He
knew how to trouble shoot. He knew how to put these servers
up, put things out, webmasters, if you will.
Q. Did you talk to Mr. Hughes?
A. No, sir.
Q. Bill Breitbarth. I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly.
Do you see that name?
A. Yes, sir. I believe he's an attorney.
Q. No, CPA.
A. Okay.
Q. What role, if any, since you're part of this Task Force,
did Mr. Breitbarth play as the management for Landslide?
A. I don't know other than the fact if he was the CPA he was
looking at the money. I'm not sure. I didn't talk to him in
person.
Q. Is Jon Reedy charged in this case?
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NELSON - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL II, 335
A. Was he charged with anything?
Q. Yes.
A. No, sir.
Q. Tom Hughes, the technical guy?
A. I don't think so.
Q. Bill Breitbarth, the management -- or the CPA?
A. No, sir.
MR. HEISKELL: If you'll go back -- I'm sorry, to the
first page of that document, the profile. I forgot something.
And if you'll highlight the third paragraph, please.
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. And let me read briefly -- And you recognize this
paragraph coming from the profile, Detective Nelson?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And it states basically that Landslide, Inc., and it talks
about the first program was developed in response to the
Communications Decency Act, the Child Online Protection Act,
and the Telecommunications Act. You're familiar with those
acts, are you not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And these acts protect -- continuing to read -- minors
from entering adult oriented sites. And our program restricts
children from accessing adult oriented content on the internet.
And it also states that webmasters pay us a fee for using our
system in voluntary compliance to the above legislation.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL II, 336
A. Yes, sir.
MR. HEISKELL: Could you please take me to SN-A-2.13,
please. And can you highlight the names under "Administrative
Contact," those three names. All three names.
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. Here we have Thomas Hughes, again, the technical person
and his own contact person, whatever that is. Do you see his
name again?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, this document is found where, if you know?
A. On the VisualRoute running the Landslide/keyz.com page,
and it ended up showing me that it was in Fort Worth and these
are the contacts for the people that registered the site.
MR. HEISKELL: Thank you. Let me ask you, very
briefly, if you could go to SN-I-2.1
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. I'm showing you now what I believe to be a home page,
Detective Nelson, for a link to -- I think this is Fantastic
Site, if I'm not mistaken. And this consists of, I believe,
three pages. Do you recall that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, if you look at the first page of this particular
site, do you see any link to Landslide or keyz.com?
A. No, sir.
MR. HEISKELL: Go to page 2.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL II, 337
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. Do you see any links to Landslide or keyz.com?
A. No, sir.
MR. HEISKELL: Page 3.
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. Do you see any link to Landslide or keyz.com?
A. No, sir.
Q. And if you were to look at this computer screen, you would
find somewhere at the top the URL address in the block for some
other webmaster and certainly not for Landslide or KeyZ; isn't
that true?
A. That's correct.
MR. HEISKELL: Thank you.
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. When you took part, Detective, in the search warrant at the
business of Landslide, did you take part in any recovery or
seizure of the computers there?
A. No, sir.
Q. Were they, in fact, seized?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And who did that part of the team, if you will, or the
Task Force, as far as the seizure of the computers?
A. The United States Postal Inspection Service.
Q. Okay. The gentleman seated in the middle here, Mr. Adams
and Mr. Mead back here; is that correct?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL II, 338
A. Well, they didn't actually do the technical part of it,
but their unit of technical persons did.
Q. Are you aware of whether there was utilized any deleted
file recovery tools to go back into those computers at
Landslide to see whether in fact they had been to any of these
sites showing the child porn?
A. I don't know, sir.
Q. You don't know?
A. No, sir.
Q. You're aware of such tools, are you not?
A. Oh, sure, yes, sir.
Q. There's a tool called AnaDisk (phonetics), are you aware
of that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what is AnaDisk? Can you tell the jurors that?
A. What it does?
Q. Yes.
A. It's just a software tool that can pull up deleted files,
and that's basically it.
Q. And it could even recover burn files. In other words,
files moved to trash and burned and people thinking they've
even gotten rid of it forever. You can get that back.
A. I'm not sure about that part of it. I'm not technical
with that whole particular program.
Q. Well, were you ever shown or informed by anyone that
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anyone at Landslide had actually either, by monitoring or
visiting these sites, it showed up on any computer hard drive
or cache or anything, from the computers at Landslide?
A. I never saw anything like that, sir.
Q. Now, if, let's say, Tom Reedy or anyone at Landslide,
wanted to go into Blackcat Lolita, for instance, or Lolita
World, to see what's on there, they can do it by getting a
password, getting the ID, and logging on just like you did,
correct?
A. That would be one of the ways, yes, sir.
Q. And another way is that they could go into the actual
address itself to do it, correct?
A. Well, I think you could with the webmaster's assistance.
Q. But the webmaster is interested in, once he gets a hit
into that address, he wants his money, or he or she want their
money for the visitor who comes in, correct?
A. They want to get a what, sir?
Q. Their money.
A. I thought you said when they want to get something before
that.
Q No.
A. Yes, they want the money, sure.
Q. And one of the things you would be able to pull up through
this AnaDisk or any file recovery tool is to whether, in fact,
anyone at Landslide had in fact visited the site to see what
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NELSON - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL II, 340
the content was.
A. I'm not sure. I'm sure the webmaster, like I said, has
logging files and you could tell what IP address accessed the
site. If they were given carte blanche access to the site,
they could see the pictures.
Q. But do y'all have any evidence of that, that they were
given carte blanche access?
A. I don't know of anything like that, sir, at all.
Q. Don't know of anything like that.
A. No, sir, I don't.
MR. HEISKELL: Would you please turn to SN-A-2.7,
please.
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. Okay. This is a document you identified previously as
containing some references, I think you testified about. I
don't recall exactly what it is right now. Can you tell us
generally what this is and where you retrieved it.
A. Again, it's from the KeyZ site, and it's basically telling
you about your income generator.
Q. The income generator. And you see under that particular
heading it states that the site promotional material -- that
this is site promotion material written by Jason DeFillippo,
head programmer, Paramount Pictures, Hollywood, California, the
owner of Spew.
A. Yes, sir.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL II, 341
Q. Is Spew another domain name or web site?
A. I'm not sure if it is or not, sir. I'm assuming it's a
company. It looks like he's the one that wrote this article,
and it's posted on this site.
Q. So this is nothing written by Tom Reedy or Janice Reedy or
anyone at Landslide, but someone in California.
A. It's my assumption it's that person there taking credit
for it.
MR. HEISKELL: Would you turn to the second page.
Could you blow up that last paragraph, please. Actually, can
you do the last three lines? That's fine.
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. In fact, the prosecutor pointed out something that this
Mr. DeFillippo from Hollywood wrote, "If you are a teen site,
don't post pictures of asians. Also make sure your URL is
prominent," et cetera? Do you see that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, and I think you gave an explanation from your
experience, or the reason for not posting sites of Asians, but
I want to ask you something here. Teen Site, you have names
such as what Network Solutions would approve for, not only Teen
Site, or teen.com, if you will, or teensex.com, but
preteensex.com.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And those sites, if you will, or names or those domain
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
NELSON - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL II, 342
names or sites, can themselves still be puffing or a teaser,
because as you acknowledge, sometimes when you go to certain
sites they may not have what the person is looking for. They
may have something totally different, such as a bait and
switch. Isn't that fair to state?
A. Yes, sir, that's fair to say.
Q. And people within the industry know that and are aware of
that. They have to be on the lookout for that type of bait and
switch routine, if you will.
A. Yes, sir.
MR. HEISKELL: Thank you.
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. When you went to the Landslide home page we saw a little
earlier, showing the KeyZ, the profile, and usage agreement, et
cetera, did you see any illegal images?
A. No, sir.
Q. None?
A. Are you talking about at the KeyZ site?
Q. Yes.
A. The front page?
Q. The front page, yes, sir.
A. No, sir.
Q. Does the word keyz.com indicate or denote anything illegal
or inappropriate about it, just the name itself?
A. No, sir. I mean, it's a domain name, registered domain
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NELSON - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL II, 343
name.
Q. It's your understanding, is it true, Detective Nelson,
that essentially landslide.com was a conduit, if you will, for
people who wanted to go to porn sites, as well as even child
porn sites?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And let me ask you: Have you ever worked -- and I think
I've touched on this briefly -- in your prior experience on any
type of prostitution cases?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And sometimes you know that the people who advertise in
the yellow pages for escorts, that can be a prostitution ring.
You know that, don't you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. But Yellow Pages are never prosecuted for that, are they?
A. I don't think so.
MR. HEISKELL: Pass the witness.
THE COURT: Will there be redirect?
MS. MOORE: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down, sir. Thank you.
You may call your next witness.
MS. MOORE: We'll call Mike Marshall, and this
witness has not been sworn, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Marshall, will you please raise your
right hand and be sworn.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
MARSHALL - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 344
(The witness is sworn.)
THE COURT: You may be seated, sir.
MICHAEL THOMAS MARSHALL,
having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Will you introduce yourself, please.
A. Michael Thomas Marshall.
Q. Mr. Marshall, how are you employed?
A. I'm employed by the Attorney General for the State of
Texas.
Q. And how long have you been employed for the AG?
A. Since September 1st of this year.
Q. What do you do for the Attorney General?
A. I'm a chief investigator for the Internet Bureau.
Q. What type of educational background do you have to qualify
you to be a chief investigator for -- Internet Bureau, you
said?
A. That is correct. I have a college degree from the
University of Texas at Arlington in Information Systems.
Q. And before getting your college degree, did you have some
other type of training that would qualify you to be an
investigator?
A. I was a police officer for the City of Fort Worth in the
early '80s.
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MARSHALL - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 345
Q. How long were you a policeman?
A. About four and a half years.
Q. And what did you do after serving as a police officer?
A. After the Fort Worth Police Department, I went to school
and got the degree in Information Systems from the University
of Texas at Arlington, and I entered the private industry
working for a defense contractor in Fort Worth. And then in
January of 1990 I went to work for Microsoft Corporation.
Q. Okay. And how long did you work for Microsoft?
A. I was with them just a little short of ten years.
Q. And were you successful enough to retire in that amount of
time?
A. Yes, ma'am. I retired in about October of 1999.
Q. And how old are you?
A. I am 43 years old.
Q. And after retiring from Microsoft, then, what, you kind of
wanted to get back into that policing business?
A. Well, for approximately a year, I did nothing; and then I
got an inquiry from the Attorney General's office where they
were starting a new division in which they wanted people to
investigate crimes on the internet, and they offered me a
position.
Q. And that's what you're doing now.
A. That is correct.
Q. Okay. Are you an expert in computers?
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MARSHALL - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 346
A. I would not say I am an expert in all areas of all
computers, no, I would not.
Q. Are you an expert in any field?
A. I feel that I have expertise in certain parts of
computer technology, mainly as it relates to the internet,
how it relates to personal computers, connectivity, electronic
e-mail systems, client server architectures, windows
applications, basically in the area that Microsoft had
technologies.
Q. Okay. And did you give aid to the investigation in this
case in its early stages?
A. Yes, ma'am, I did.
Q. And were you still working for Microsoft then, or is this
while you had the year off?
A. No. It was while I was still working for Microsoft.
Q. Okay. And basically you consulted with the United States
Postal Inspection Service.
A. I also did that, correct.
Q. In fact, were you the fellow that suggested to Steve
Nelson that he use Web Buddy?
A. I suggested that. I was the one that suggested,
installed, and helped him configure the device that was used to
videotape off of the internet. I helped him with the
technology related with the VisualRoute.
Q. Okay. And did you likewise participate in the search that
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MARSHALL - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 347
took place on September the 8th of 1999?
A. I was present during that search.
Q. Okay. So you've had a role in this investigation.
A. Yes, ma'am, I have.
Q. Okay. Can you tell us what the internet is?
A. Sure. The internet is a large collection of thousands
of computers that are interconnected with each other, basically
providing five basic services. Those services being electronic
e-mail, web sites that also could offer electronic commerce,
they offer the technology of transferring files from one
computer to another. They offer the concept of what's called
user groups, or bulletin boards, and also interactive chat.
Q. Chat rooms?
A. Chat rooms.
Q. And that's basically what the internet is.
A. Correct.
Q. Who governs the internet?
A. There is no one governmental or even pseudo-government
agency that governs the internet. The internet, except for the
naming of domain names, short of that there is no one agency
that really governs the internet.
Q. Well, are there rules that people go by?
A. Due to the fact that there is no government agency, there
is a well-defined set of rules and protocols in which people
that want to interact on the internet must follow so that they
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
MARSHALL - DIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 348
can be successful in communicating in interconnectivity of the
different computers. So there are a well-defined set of rules
and protocols.
Q. Okay. Rules and protocols but no necessarily governing
body over the internet.
A. That is correct.
Q. Now, you mentioned that the internet provided e-mail, was
one of the things that was available.
A. Yes, that is one of the services that the internet
provides.
Q. Can you tell the jury what e-mail is?
A. E-mail has basically two major aspects to it. It is the
electronic transfer of text, messages; and an enhancement to
the e-mail is the ability to attach files to an e-mail message,
thus allowing the transfer between end users of files attached
to an e-mail message.
Q. Okay. So it's a means of communicating and attaching
files and sending it to each other?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. What is a banner?
A. A banner is an acronym that is used for an advertisement
that is very common on web sites, especially web sites that are
conducting themselves in e-commerce.
Q. What's a legitimate use of a banner?
A. An example would be -- Let's say that there was a web site
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that was advertising used cars or automobiles. A legitimate
use, or a very common use, would be maybe for an insurance
company who sold automobile insurance to advertise their banner
for automobile insurance on the same web page of a car
dealership banner, because the two industries are associated
with each other and they share common interests and share the
same customer base. And, thus, they would be able to leverage
each other's customer base.
Q. Okay. Do strangers post their banners on other people's
web sites?
A. Not normally. That would be very uncommon.
Q. That would be uncommon.
A. Yes.
Q. There would usually have to be some communication between
you and the person that you're going to post your banner on
their business.
MR. BALL: Objection, leading.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. You tell me. When you say it's uncommon, what do you
mean.
A. It is uncommon -- The web page is a valuable internet real
estate, and for someone that has gone to the effort of having a
web page, that real estate out on the internet is valuable to
them. So for them to relinquish some of that screen space to
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
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someone else, they would have to have an agreement to do so and
they would want to be motivated to also do that.
It would be very uncommon for someone hosting a web site
just to open up their web site and say, "Anybody who wants to
put their banner here, feel free to do so." It would be
counterproductive, especially in trying to make money.
Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned a minute ago that you helped
Steve Nelson with this concept of visual routing.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Okay. So you're familiar -- So that's a software program?
A. VisualRoute is a software program.
Q. And before coming to court today, you've actually seen the
visual routes that Detective Nelson talked about that he used
for each of the sites that he purchased.
A. That is correct.
Q. And if I told you they were SN-A-2.12, SN-B-2.2, SN-C-2.3,
SN-D-2.2, SN-E-2.2, SN-F-2.2, SN-G-2.2, SN-H-2.2, SN-I-2.2,
SN-J-2.2, and SN-K-2.2, would you take my word for that?
A. I would.
Q. And you've actually seen those.
A. I have.
Q. Can you explain to us what is going on --
A. Sure.
Q. -- with the VisualRoute thing?
A. I can. Part of the protocol of being connected to the
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internet is that each device, each computer, either being a
server or a work station, must have a unique address, a unique
internet protocol address, assigned to that computer. If it is
not unique that computer could not be on the internet at that
time. And what this program does is, by taking the URL, or the
friendly web site name, it queries and determines what the IP
address is associated with that web site name.
And then starting at the end user's computer, it starts
going out on the internet looking for the destination, IP
address. And then one of the features of VisualRoute is to
basically show every stop on the internet that that packet
makes prior to reaching the destination. And then it
enumerates those stops on the VisualRoute screen and displays
that to the end user.
Q. So it's actually tracing the stops along the way in
interstate commerce.
A. That is correct.
Q. Okay. And you know that some of these sites rest in
Virginia and in New York and Japan and California, and that is
all outside the state of Texas, is it not?
A. Yes, ma'am, it is.
Q. And it therefore necessarily impacts interstate and
foreign commerce, doesn't it?
A. It does.
Q. Thank you, sir. Did you prepare a Power Point
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presentation to help explain to the jury how a subscriber or a
user, customer, whatever you want to call him, a person at his
computer that wants to look at some child porn, is able to
accomplish that, how that whole process with Landslide and the
webmaster and the subscriber works?
A. I did.
Q. Do you think that would aid the jury in understanding the
process?
A. Yes, ma'am, I would.
Q. Okay.
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, may I have permission to have
Mr. Marshall explain this process using his Power Point
presentation?
(Government counsel confers with defense counsel.)
MR. BALL: No objection.
THE COURT: All right. Hearing no objection, yes,
you may proceed.
A. This is the Power Point presentation that I prepared, and
basically it's going to talk about how a user or a customer
receives access. I need a click of the mouse, please.
The customer pays for a user ID from Landslide. The user,
the customer, attempts to access a child pornography site. An
attempt is made to validate the user's ID, and then the user's
ID is validated by Landslide. The customer receives access to
the child pornography web site.
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Here's an example of a graphic representing a customer
that is connected to the internet. There is a web presence, or
a web site, be it www.keyz.com. or www.landslide.com, and the
user pays through that web site for a user ID. The web site of
www.keyz.com or landslide.com returns a user ID assignment back
to the customer.
So out on the internet, there is a customer that is
connected to the internet, Landslide or keyz.com is connected
to the internet, and there are child pornography web sites that
are connected to the internet.
The customer makes a request to the porn site saying, "I
would like to log on. Is my user ID valid?" The web site
redirects that request back to KeyZ asking for validation of
that user ID. KeyZ validates the user ID as being either valid
or not valid and passes that information back to the child
pornography site. I need a click of the mouse.
And access is granted from the child pornography site.
And at that point the customer then interacts and views child
pornography from that site. So basically out on the internet,
there's a large group of customers, there's a large group of
child pornography sites, and in the middle is
Landslide/keyz.com basically being the gatekeeper between those
two components.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. So is it your understanding that a customer could not -- a
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subscriber or customer could not gain access to a child porn
site unless they went through Landslide or KeyZ first?
A. During the time period of this investigation when I was
assisting Detective Nelson there were times that
Landslide/keyz.com was down. For whatever reason they were not
available, and during that time that they were not available,
Detective Nelson was unable to get to the child pornography
site. If they took KeyZ out of the picture, the customers were
not able to access those child pornography sites.
MS. MOORE: I'll pass the witness.
THE COURT: Will there be cross?
MR. BALL: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
MR. BALL: Thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. BALL:
Q. Mr. Marshall, if I understand correctly, your professional
career originally started out as a Fort Worth police officer;
is that right?
A. That is correct, sir.
Q. And were you assigned to a detective or investigative
division?
A. As all police officers, I had a time period in patrol and
then there was a time period that I was an investigator. I
worked hit and run accidents.
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Q. All right. And you did that from when to when?
A. About 1981, around -- like '84/'85 time frame.
Q. All right. And apparently we ran into one another when I
was a prosecutor or something, because you recall me.
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. Then you went to work for Microsoft. What did you do for
Microsoft over that ten-year time frame?
A. My first year I was employed in Seattle. During that
first year, I basically was responsible for networking
technology. We were coming out with a new product referred to
as Land Manager, which was a network operating system, and I
provided technical assistance and expertise in that area.
Myself and my family had a strong desire to move back to
Texas. In the early '90s Microsoft was on a very rapid growth
and there were openings in Texas, back in Dallas, that required
my technical expertise, and I was able to transfer back to Dallas.
And I spent nine of those years here in Dallas.
Q. All right. And Microsoft is the company, I think, owned
or run by Bill Gates; is that right?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. And it's been very successful and grown considerably since
you first began your employment with them in 1990; is that
correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. And I take it, without prying in too much detail, working
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for them and perhaps sharing in the profit of the company made
you comfortable. Is that fair to say?
A. That is fair.
Q. All right. And then after about a year layoff of not
really doing regular employment you went to work again. Was
that with the Attorney General's Office?
A. The Attorney General for the State of Texas.
Q. All right. And your work there has to do with the
internet and cyber crime and things like that?
A. That is correct.
Q. And you office out of where, sir?
A. Well, I do have an office in Austin, and I am also
co-officing with the Dallas Police Department. So I really
don't have like a main office. I have several.
Q. All right. When you initially got involved in the
investigation of this case, you were still employed with
Microsoft?
A. That is correct.
Q. And how was it that as an employee of Microsoft they
contacted you? Was there a previous relationship?
A. It was. During the last three years of my employment,
Microsoft offered my services to law enforcement as basically a
liaison between law enforcement and Microsoft Corporation.
There was particular interest because the Dallas Police
Department had just received a federal grant, The Internet
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Crimes Against Children Task Force Grant. And we were
providing technical assistance, we were providing software,
human expertise, to overcome technical hurdles that they were
having in their investigation of internet-related crimes.
Q. All right. And with regard to the internet, have you
testified on other occasions regarding your knowledge or
expertise in that area?
A. Yes, sir, I have.
Q. Have you testified for the United States government
previously?
A. I have.
Q. On how many occasions, sir?
A. I've testified four different times.
Q. All right. I know one occasion in the Eastern District of
Texas. You testified out there?
A. I did.
Q. Tyler; is that right, sir?
A. I believe it's Sherman.
Q. All right, sir. And did you have any occasion to do any
testifying when you were a Fort Worth police officer?
A. I did.
Q. Was that on a number of occasions?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And when you worked for Microsoft over that
ten years, other than the three-year liaison sort of work you
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were doing, did you have occasion to testify in any capacity as
an employee of Microsoft?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Have you ever run an e-commerce web site?
A. I personally have not run an e-commerce web site.
Q. All right. Have you ever created web pages?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. On a number of occasions or once?
A. More than once; less than 100.
Q. All right. Is there software that individuals can use to
assist them in creating web pages?
A. There is.
Q. All right. And are they run from the very simple to the
complex?
A. That is correct.
Q. One can create a web page that's simply a web site that's
simply a single page. That's all you get, right?
A. Yes, they could.
Q. Or it could have multiple links within it to go to
multiple pages, depending on the sophistication of that
particular web site; is that right?
A. That is correct.
Q. It can have links to locations outside that particular web
site; is that right?
A. That is correct.
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Q. For example, banners. One might advertise, you used the
example of an automobile dealer, maybe, and there might be a
banner selling AllState insurance that would lead a person to a
site elsewhere; is that right?
A. That could happen.
Q. Have you ever created or worked with a creation of web
sites banner exchange programs that appear to be fairly popular
in the internet?
A. No, sir, I have not.
Q. Do you know whether or not a web site, such as the car
dealer, necessarily has to review the content of any banner
that's posted on its page?
A. They would not have to review the banner. There's
probably -- There's two major ways of providing banner presence
on a web site. One of them could be the banner actually
resides on the server, or the banner could reside on a
different server, or the banner could reside on server A, but
when you click on it, it would navigate the user to server B.
Q. All right. Let's talk about that concept for just a
moment. In the banner system, can a web site set up a system
where the banners actually rotate? Where if you go -- Let's
say you go to the car dealer. Let's just call it Ford Motor
Company. You go to Ford Motor Company, there's a banner for
AllState Insurance. You sign off the internet. Thirty minutes
later you say, "Wait a minute. I think I'm going to go back
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there." You go back there and in the same place there's a
banner space but it's got now State Farm. Is that a common
practice?
A. That is common.
Q. All right. And is that actually the complete page? It's
separate? In other words, if the address of the original page
is www.ford.com, let's use that for simplicity, and you go
there and there's Ford's information and then a banner with
AllState. You click off the internet. You go back to
www.ford.com. You go back and now there's a banner that says
State Farm. Am I at the same page?
A. You're at the same page. Normally the way that works is
that at ford.com they have a place holder where a banner can
reside. And the people running ford.com would have to allow
access to other individuals to place a banner there. I've
never seen it, and I would say it would be extremely uncommon
to have an open door where anybody could just throw a banner on
top of ford.com.
The people controlling server A, ford.com, would have to
give access, would have to open the door, and they would say,
"Okay, AllState, using this account and this password, you have
permission to put any banner there you wish." Or they could
change that to AllState or State Farm or whoever, but the
normal architecture of that is that Ford controls the access of
the placing of that banner.
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Q. All right. Let me see if I understand you correctly. So
ford.com can give permission to AllState or State Farm or any
other advertiser, and there's typically some economic benefit,
whether it be trading advertising or direct monetary payment,
like you said, it would be uncommon for somebody to just allow
anybody to come post a banner. They would give permission to
AllState or State Farm to put a banner in this bracket or space
on their, let's say, home page, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And then if I'm State Farm and now I've been given
permission to put a banner on ford.com's site, I can put -- I
forget, let's use AllState's logo. Which one is in good hands?
I think AllState. I could draw up something on my computer at
AllState that I think is attractive and would draw business,
"You're in good hands with AllState," or something, and I could
send that over the internet to ford.com and because they've
given me access, my banner, as I've drawn it up, would appear
on their site.
A. You could send it. A more -- the two ways of doing it is
more likely instead of having to send it and Ford would have to
open up their server is they would just allow for a link. So,
really, even though you're at ford.com and you're seeing
that banner, that banner could really be published from another web
site.
Q. Okay. So I could have my AllState banner on ford.com's
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site and actually that banner not be hosted at all by Ford.
That information is being fed to that page from another
location.
A. That is one option.
Q. All right, sir. Or the other option is it could be
downloaded to ford.com and actually stored on their server and
brought up when that page is accessed. That's another way of
doing it.
A. That's another option.
Q. And, actually, unless -- the typical arrangement would be
AllState or State Farm or whoever would actually draw up the
content and the way the banner looked to best suit their
advertising needs. Is that fair to say?
A. That would be fair.
Q. In other words, Ford wouldn't, unless they particularly
wanted to, wouldn't be involved in the drawing and the --
A. At that level of commerce, Ford would be particular on
what would be displayed. I mean, it is their web site. It's
their reputation that is being displayed, and I'm sure that
there would be contractual agreements on the content and the
look and feel and exactly what the words were, et cetera. A
company would not give free, unreined access to put whatever
you want, because I may give my neighbor permission to put a
sign in their front yard if they're running for office, but I
would want to have, you know, I would want to know what that
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sign said.
Q. Okay, So a company as big and sophisticated as Ford Motor
Company, let's say, could require access or pre-review of the
banner before it's on there, right, to protect their
reputation.
A. Yes, they could.
Q. So that some crazy person at AllState couldn't put a
banner that says "For Child Porn Click Here," on there, right?
A. Correct.
Q. That would be a choice that Ford would make to protect
their reputation; is that right? Or one of the reasons they
would do it, I suppose.
A. There's others, but to protect their reputation, to make
sure that they're not, you know, crossing any lines.
Q. All right. And the banner bracket that would allow
AllState or State Farm -- For a moment, can that rotate? In
other words, each time that page is accessed, it could throw up
a different banner from a different business?
A. The arrangement could be made for the content to be
refreshed at whatever arrangement that the two individual
companies chose to.
Q. And I as the person going to ford.com and pulling that
site up today and tomorrow and the next day, because I keep
wanting to look at it and it keeps popping these banners up,
the popping of the banners up, once the system is put in place,
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it's automatic. There's no human intervention at that point;
is that right?
A. It could be automated.
Q. All right. And, incidentally, when one surfs on the
internet and looks at web pages and web sites, and if we
capture it on Web Buddy or we capture it on video, that's
capturing that particular moment in time on the internet, is it
not?
A. It is.
Q. One may type in the same address or the same URL,
literally 30 seconds later, and get something completely
different.
A. They're going to the same web site. The content of that
web site could be different.
Q. All right. And that can be controlled by the web site.
They could have a system in place to change what a person sees
every minute.
A. They could.
Q. One can go to web sites that advertise or show viewers
what current stock prices are, maybe with a little delay; and
one could go there now and one could go there in 15 minutes and
it's a different price, right?
A. Very common. An example would be a web site could show
what time of day it is, and every time they go back the clock
would be updated.
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Q. All right. And that's within the control of the webmaster
and however they want to program it depending on their
sophistication, correct, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. If I'm going to a web site and I keep going
there and I show a particular interest in a particular type of
thing, can the web be set up to where that webmaster knows who
I am when I get there?
A. It's referred to as profiling. There's ways that
technology can profile an end user's preferences, tastes, and
interests and so that they could better market to that end
user.
Q. All right. And so it -- Can it be programmed, can the
webmaster program his site with this preference system so that
when I go there, I type in an address like ford.com and I go
there, I'm seeing something different than Mr. Heiskell would
be if he went there.
A. That is correct.
Q. In other words, it recognizes this is someone else than
me, correct?
A. It can.
Q. And if one is in the business of e-commerce, one might
want to appeal to what preferences someone seemed to -- to what
I had before, because they are more likely to buy into that
later; is that right?
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A. They would.
Q. Okay. So when we look at this -- if we look at a page,
let's talk about Landslide for a minute or some of their pages.
If we pull up a page and we see Landslide and it has AVS and
KeyZ, et cetera, and then we scroll on down the page and we see
a banner, by gosh, that says, "For Child Porn Click Here" -- In
fact, have you seen something like that?
A. I have.
Q. All right. That banner could have been placed by persons
outside of Landslide who had been given permission to post
whatever banner they want to on that site; is that right?
A. That is possible.
Q. All right. That banner could have been created by persons
completely apart from Landslide, correct, sir?
A. It could have been created from other people other than
Landslide.
Q. And when that -- depending on what Landslide's practice
is, that banner could have been pre-reviewed or screened like
Ford might want to do to protect their reputation, or they
could have no screening whatsoever, correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. And if I'm the person putting the "Child Porn Click Here,"
banner up there, if I've been given proper access by Landslide,
I might be able to change that without any intervention by
Landslide whatsoever. Just send different information; is that
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right?
A. If you had access to that server, you could do that.
Q. All right. And you were in the courtroom during the
examination of Detective Nelson, right, sir?
A. Yes, sir, I was.
Q. One area of inquiry I made was if I type in something on
the internet, an address, it might be the user friendly address
like ford.com since we're using that example, can the system be
set up to where I'm redirected to somewhere else?
A. Yes. You are being truly redirected. If you would type
in ford.com, you would go to the Ford web site, but there could
be technology in place that all users who come here,
automatically send them here. And so there could be automation
in place that would automatically redirect the user.
Q. All right. And can that virtually happen so quickly the
user, I'm surfing the net, I didn't even see it happen.
A. It could.
Q. It's like I typed it in and it redirected me but I just
see that one page.
A. That could happen.
Q. I don't see a ford.com page. I see the page that I was
redirected to. That can happen, sir?
A. Yes, it could.
Q. All right. And the persons that would be responsible or
capable of doing that would be whoever is operating ford.com's
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web site.
A. That is correct.
Q. It's kind of like call forwarding, I guess, on a
telephone. I could dial somebody's number, but if they've call
forwarded, it ends up ringing at someone else's house?
A. That could happen.
Q. All right. Those maps that were the exhibits, I believe
that Ms. Moore rattled off, and you agreed that those were
likely the exhibits that show a world map at the bottom and
then I think they're called hops? Is that a term?
A. That's a term that they're used for, hops, internet hops.
Each place that the request -- or it's referred to as a
"packet." When a packet leaves the destination computer, it's
basically conversing or traveling through the internet looking
for the destination. And there are communication servers
throughout the internet that basically provide the path from
point A to point Z.
Q. All right. The locations that are printed out using that
program to show these hops, does that location necessarily
designate where that server or computer is located?
A. I believe the program -- The name of the server is
identified. It can be whatever anybody wants to name that
server. But then there is a geographical location that is then
associated with that name, thus the ability to draw the map.
Q. Okay. I guess, is the machine that the packet is going
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through necessarily at the location, for example, Reston,
Virginia?
A. The name of the server does not have to be named
geographically anything. It could be called whatever name they
chose to name it.
Q. Okay. I'm not sure -- My question is: Is the machine
that says Reston, Virginia, is that machine, server, whatever
you want to call it, is it in Reston, Virginia, necessarily
because it says that, or could it be in Maryland or Wisconsin
or somewhere else?
A. I think you're making reference to a city that was
displayed on the VisualRoute.
Q. Yes, sir.
A. That is the city. To the left of that was a name of the
server, and it's a very cryptic-like name. So where it says
Reston Virginia, the packet went to Reston, Virginia.
Q. All right. And in any of those mapping sites, those were
demonstrating where, let's say, Detective Nelson was getting
the child pornographic pictures for various web sites like
Lolita Land and so forth; is that right?
A. Correct.
Q. And that's the path that those images would have crossed
to get back to Detective Nelson's computer to show up on his
screen, correct?
A. Not necessarily.
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Q. All right.
A. The application does -- It's very simple. It says, "Is
this server out there?" And it goes out to the internet, and
it says, "I am that server," and it responds back to it. It is
truly that simple. The transferring of photographs and the
communication with that web site is more complex than that, can
be more complex than that.
Q. Okay. So the images may have been passed through other
locations other than what's depicted on that map?
A. Or the way the application running on the web site could
demand that the images pass through different ways, or that the
user communicates with that. The way the end user was
communicating with these child porn sites are not identically
representative of what the VisualRoute tool reflected. The
VisualRoute tool was used in this investigation to identify the
geographical location of a particular web site.
Q. Okay.
A. Other techniques were used to determine how the end user
communicated with that web site, and one should not draw a
parallel that those two are the same.
Q. All right. When Detective Nelson would say, "I want to go
to Lolita Land," he goes to a Lolita Land web page, and then he
has to go to -- and I believe some of this is reflected -- I
don't know if that particular web site is used on your Power
Point presentation, he's directed to KeyZ to sign up and get a
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password and a user name and credit card information and so
forth, correct, sir?
A. That is one way, correct.
Q. All right. And then he is redirected back to the Lolita
Land site with that new information, right?
A. Once he is validated, he is then redirected back to the
Lolita World site.
Q. All right. And once he has validated his user name and
password is verified and he is a legitimate user and he's paid
for this service, Landslide and KeyZ are out of the
communication loop at that point; is that right?
A. During that session, that is correct. During that one
log-on session, the rest of the communication is directly
between the customer and the child pornography site.
Q. So once we get to the point, okay, now I'm in and I'm
Detective Nelson and I want to look at these pictures and I
start looking at thumbnails and I start looking at individual
images, other than the route of travel, that communication is
directly between Detective Nelson and the example I'm using,
Lolita Land, right?
A. That is correct.
Q. And those transmissions or packets or transmissions of
information or binary code don't pass anymore through Landslide
or KeyZ or any of those locations, correct?
A. That is correct, sir.
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Q. Let me talk a minute about thumbnails. Thumbnails are
commonly used in e-commerce where pictures are an item of
interest; is that right?
A. They are.
Q. Okay. And I think some reference was made to you've got a
thumbnail, it's a small image, you click on it and it enlarges
the image. Do you recall some testimony of that sort?
A. I do.
Q. And that's not actually what occurs, is it? It's not
enlarging that image. It's actually going elsewhere and retrieving an
image, correct?
A. The thumbnail, not only is it a graphical representation
of what that picture is, it is also a link that when clicked on
with a mouse then expands the resolution of that picture and so
it makes it larger on the screen, easier to view.
Q. Okay. So it would never be possible to go to a thumbnail,
click on it, and get a different image.
A. No, that could be possible. They could have a graphical
representation and then decide to link it to a different
picture. It's technically possible. I've never seen that
before. That would be confusing.
Q. Okay. That certainly might disappoint the person that
wanted to see that image larger to be directed to another, but
it could be linked that way.
A. It could be linked; extremely uncommon.
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Q. So if I understood you, if I click on a thumbnail, that
thumbnail is linked to some other data or information.
A. No. The thumbnail itself could be a link just showing
that picture at a different resolution, a very small
resolution. And then the clicking of that thumbnail activates
the displaying of that picture at a different size.
Q. All right. Would it be possible if I ran a web site and I
didn't want particular individuals to see my general content,
to program my system in a way that if I know the IP address who
is coming to look at my site I can show them something else?
A. Possible. Impractical.
Q. All right. I mean, for example, if I knew the -- If I'm a
child porno site and I knew the actual IP address or address
block of Detective Nelson of the Dallas Police Department, I
could program my system that when he comes looking he gets
something different than what everybody else is seeing.
A. In the example you just described, probably not. Your web
site would not know Detective Nelson's IP address, because
during this time of the investigation, as he testified, he was
using a modem. He did not have the same IP address every time
he turned on his computer.
Q. All right.
A. That was my comment when -- impractical. Blocking at an
IP level is extremely difficult because a majority of the
internet users don't have the same IP address from any one
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given day to the next day. Everytime they turn their computer
on and off, a majority of the internet users get a different IP
address than what they had from the previous session. So
blocking at the IP level would be challenging.
Q. All right. Some people that use the internet, though, do
use the same IP addresses.
A. It is getting more common.
Q. All right. And the content that's on a web site, as you
understood this system, Landslide/KeyZ and these child
pornographic sites, who actually places the child pornographic
images on the web sites that we saw?
A. The web -- the people responsible for the child
pornography site.
Q. All right. If there was a child pornography site run by
an individual by the name of Boris Greenberg in Russia, if he
had a site -- In fact, do you know which site or sites might
have been his?
A. I do not.
Q. Okay. If he had a site, he could control what the content
of that site was, correct?
A. Yes, he could.
Q. Would there be anything that would be technologically
required for him to go get permission from KeyZ or Landslide
any time he wanted to change a picture?
A. No.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
MARSHALL - CROSS - BALL VOL II, 375
Q. All right. He could put up whatever pictures he wanted to
at any time he wanted to from his location without consulting
with KeyZ or Landslide, true, sir?
A. He could. That is true.
Q. Now, when the image -- I inquired of Detective Nelson
about this. The image that's actually passed, let's say, from
Lolita Land to Detective Nelson's computer actually comes in
some sort of language or coding of some sort?
A. That is correct.
Q. What's that called?
A. It's referred to as a protocol. It is incapsulated in
packets that adhere to a standard, a protocol, so that when
it's transferred across the internet it is reassembled in the
exact same manner in which it was originally hosted.
Q. All right. And is it possible for -- Are you familiar
with a term called "virtual reality"?
A. I am.
Q. Or virtual images?
A. Not so much. I'm not sure how you're using that.
Q. All right. Well, is it possible for a person, at least
who's got some training in that area, not me certainly, but is
it possible for someone to create an image of something that
never actually existed?
A. It is possible.
Q. And transmit that over the internet from one place to
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
MARSHALL - CROSS - BALL VOL II, 376
another.
A. It is possible.
Q. All right. Is it possible for a person with sufficient
training and skill to create an image of a human being that
never actually really existed?
A. It's possible.
Q. All right. And transfer that over the internet from one
computer to another.
A. Correct.
Q. Is it possible to -- I think a term was used, "morphing,"
take a picture of a person here and a picture of a person here
and somehow combine parts and put maybe Don Knotts -- show how
far back I go -- Don Knotts', the comedian's head, on top of
Luciano Pavarotti, the opera singer. It might create an odd
image, but one could do that?
A. Yes, one could do that.
Q. And since this image is passed, for example, from Lolita
Land to Detective Nelson's computer, can you determine whether
the image that was passed, such as the ones that have been
admitted into evidence, based on that alone can you determine
whether that image is something that ever existed or was in
fact morphed or a virtual created image?
A. Not just from the transferring of it one could not.
Q. All right. And, incidentally, the redirect or the call
forwarding example I gave you where you go to one site and it
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
MARSHALL - CROSS - BALL VOL II, 377
directs you to another, are you familiar with the term net
refresh?
A. I am.
Q. Does that describe that --
A. That is a description of that.
Q. Are you familiar with the term called "cloaking" that
might be used in banner exchange systems?
A. No, sir, I am not.
Q. Where different banners are shown to different IP
addresses?
A. I am not.
Q. All right. You're certainly familiar with the term
"cookies"?
A. I am familiar with that term.
Q. And is that where when I go to a web site they can place a
cookie on my machine, and then I sign off and when I go back it
sees that cookie, knows I've been there, and can customize,
perhaps, information I receive?
A. A cookie is an acronym for a file that resides on the end
user's computer that was placed there from a web site that has
information in there that is personalized. It could be
personalized information of that web site, of what the user
typed in. It basically gives a personalization attribute
associated with the end user and that particular web site.
Q. All right. And that can be done absolutely unknown to the
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
MARSHALL - CROSS - BALL VOL II, 378
person surfing the web.
A. That is correct.
Q. There's nothing that says, hey, we just placed a cookie
there. You can set it up where it will tell you, but generally
the person doesn't even know it's happened.
A. That is correct.
Q. And you might go to a web site, it places a cookie on your
machine, and you might go back there, and without typing
anything additional telling them who you are, it may say,
"Hello, Mike."
A. That is correct.
Q. All right. Because it's seen that from the information
that passes, right?
A. That is correct.
Q. Would you consider -- and when I use the term "dynamic" I
mean constantly changing. Is the internet a dynamic system?
A. Extremely dynamic.
Q. So when Detective Nelson goes to Lolita Land and he sees
images, there's no certainty that anybody else could go there
the next minute and see the exact same thing.
A. Not a certainty. I mean, it would take more than one
minute to change the content of a web site. Even though web
sites are dynamic, they're not dynamic -- I don't think the
dynamic aspects of it are measured in minutes.
Q. All right. Well, let's say a day, go back in a day, it
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
MARSHALL - CROSS - BALL VOL II, 379
can be completely different.
A. Some web sites, daily is extremely common.
Q. All right. So Detective Nelson could go there on one day
and see the images that have been introduced into evidence, and
Tom Reedy or Janice Reedy could go there the next day or the
next week and see something completely different.
A. Correct.
Q. And there's nothing to determine from the information that
you've seen that Tom Reedy or Janice Reedy ever went and saw
any of the images that were collected on the Web Buddy or the
video by Detective Nelson; is that right?
A. That is correct.
Q. If I go to a web site and see images and I don't want to
look at them any longer and I exit by a variety of means,
clicking the X box that you sometimes see in the right-hand
corner, or control-alt-delete, or just signing off, or however
I go about doing it, that image is written on my hard drive; is
that right?
A. That is correct.
Q. So even though I don't want to look at it anymore that
image is still there and it can be recovered and popped back up
on my computer screen.
A. It could be.
Q. And that remains there unless I do something additional,
until it's written over and shoved off the drive because
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
MARSHALL - CROSS - BALL VOL II, 380
there's no room for it any longer?
A. That is correct.
Q. And if I have a particularly large hard drive, many, many
gigabytes, it may stay on there indefinitely, correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Suppose I want to get rid of it further and I put it --
there's something on my computer called a trash bin or
something. Suppose I throw it over there. I think it's called
trash bin. I put it over there and then I say remove all the
trash. Is it gone then? It's not on my hard drive anymore?
A. No, that is not correct.
Q. All right. It still can be found, can it not?
A. Yes, it can.
Q. In fact, there are tools that are used by law enforcement
and other people to go in there and recover that and pull that
image up straightaway even though I wanted to get rid of it.
A. That is correct.
Q. Are there some very sophisticated -- Well, are there some
programs available or software that will actually go in and get
it off?
A. Yes, sir, there is.
Q. You have to go out and buy those and load them on your
computer generally and go through a process to do that; is that
right?
A. That is correct.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
MARSHALL - CROSS - BALL VOL II, 381
Q. Have you seen -- Were you involved in the review of -- you
certainly were present and aware that a number of items were
seized from the premises of Landslide and the Reedys; is that
right?
A. Correct.
Q. And were you involved in any review of any data that
showed locations they may have gone on the internet or their
employees or their business?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Did you all use any tools like AnaDisk
(phonetics) on there, material that was collected? I assume
you heard Mr. Heiskell's questions earlier?
A. I heard his questioning. It's my understanding that there
was no examination, forensics examination, of pictures during
the actual search warrant. The computers in question were
actually seized and removed from the building. Thus after that
point, I have no knowledge of any examination of those
computers.
Q. All right. If that was done, you weren't involved in it; is that
right?
A. That is correct.
Q. It's likely the image that I might have looked at and I
tried to get rid of couldn't and it's still on there. If I had
gone on the internet and went and looked at a variety of
locations, is that material also written on my hard drive? It
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
MARSHALL - CROSS - BALL VOL II, 382
remains there either in a temp file or somewhere else?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. So let's suppose I want to go look at pornographic
sites and I go on the internet and I do all this surfing and
then I say, well, I don't want anybody in my family to know
where I've been. I'd be embarrassed, and I sign off. Assuming
they wanted to do so and were sophisticated enough, could they
find out where I've been?
A. They could.
THE COURT: Mr. Ball, how close are you to being
through?
MR. BALL: Real close, Judge.
THE COURT: Mr. Heiskell, will you have questions?
MR. HEISKELL: I'll have a few questions, Your Honor.
Hopefully not many.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. BALL: I'm about two minutes away, I think,
Judge.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
BY MR. BALL:
Q. So, in fact, there are programs that -- simply for
parental use so that when little Johnny or whatever has been
surfing on the net they can see where little Johnny has been to
make sure that he's been places that are appropriate; is that
right?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
MARSHALL - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL II, 383
A. There are programs like that.
Q. I believe that's all, sir. Thank you.
MR. BALL: I'll pass the witness.
THE COURT: Mr. Heiskell.
MR. HEISKELL: Thank you, Your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. My name is Mike Heiskell. I represent Janice Reedy. I
have some questions for you, and as I stated before, if I ask
you something you don't understand just stop me and I'll start
over.
A. Okay.
Q. You were a police officer with the City of Fort Worth for
four and a half years.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you in patrol, or were you a detective?
A. Both. I did patrol time and I also worked in a division
that investigated hit and run accidents.
Q. That's hit and run accidents is what you investigated.
A. Yes, sir. Hit and run accidents and accidents that
involved fatalities.
Q. Okay. And how many times -- Well, you were employed by
the government to assist in this case in April of 1999,
correct?
A. No, I was not.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
MARSHALL - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL II, 384
Q. You volunteered your time.
A. That is correct.
Q. And you still have an office in Dallas at the police
department.
A. I do now. I did not then.
Q. So are you on the payroll for the Dallas Police
Department, is what I'm trying to determine, I guess.
A. No, sir.
Q. You're still volunteering your time.
A. Today?
Q. Well, even when you're at the Dallas PD or whenever, yes,
sir.
A. Right now I'm employed by the State of Texas for the
Attorney General's Office, and as part of a joint cooperation
they have let me use office space at the Dallas Police
Department.
Q. Okay. You have admitted that you're not an expert in all
phases of computer technology but in certain phases; is that
correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are you familiar with this domain web site spree.com?
A. No, I am not.
Q. Are you aware that it has a banner program where people
can put in banners on a particular page or even be given free
pages?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
MARSHALL - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL II, 385
A. I'm not familiar with that.
Q. Okay. Have you ever visited an adult banner exchange
program?
A. I have not.
Q. So what you've testified about this banner, and I don't
want to be too redundant, is something you're familiar within
the mainstream commerce, such as Ford and Microsoft, et cetera.
A. The majority of the banners do not participate in an
exchange program. A majority of the banners are actually
created by web developers, and they're either placed on their
web site or they're placed on another web site. A residual of
banners is this new concept of banner exchange.
Q. Right.
A. I have limited knowledge of the exchange aspects of it.
Q. But you are aware, then, that there is what is called a
banner link exchange program.
A. I know there are such programs.
Q. And isn't it a fact that Microsoft owns one of the largest
exchange program systems?
A. I'm not aware of that.
Q. Okay. Your presentation on the slide that was shown
earlier --
MR. HEISKELL: Can we go back to the beginning,
please.
THE WITNESS: I'm not controlling it.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
MARSHALL - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL II, 386
MR. HEISKELL: Yes, I'm telling her to do it.
And if we can go to the graphics, the graphic part of it.
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. Okay. Now, you had talked before about these three
graphics: the customer, KeyZ and Landslide here, and the web
site, the webmaster, controls, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And, actually, if a person were to go to keyz.com or
landslide.com this entity, if you will, acts as a jump site,
actually, for the child porn web site.
A. My original testimony was that was one way that the
customer could get access, and another way is to go straight to
KeyZ and then by typing in their user password, then keyz.com
would know what child porn site that customer had purchased and
then would redirect them straight to that.
Q. And what Detective Nelson did was to go in and type in the
child porn web site, Kintamani, and I'm butchering that name,
and Matahari, actual porn web sites, correct? And then they
directed him to a signup page or a signup sheet. Isn't that
true?
A. That is one way that I saw him do that.
Q. And then from there, from the signup sheet, then this
becomes activated, the KeyZ or Landslide system.
A. Correct.
Q. Isn't that true?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
MARSHALL - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL II, 387
A. Correct.
Q. Can you tell the jury what a "jump site" is?
A. Well, a jump site is basically a web site that has
functionality built into it that would redirect or renavigate
the user to a different site.
Q. And it's like, again, a call forwarding system.
A. Correct.
Q. That Southwestern Bell or AT&T would have to forward
calls, if you call a particular number, to another number.
A. Correct.
Q. And that system, for instance, for the telephone system,
it doesn't have technology, at least at present, for them to
overhear those conversations but it really is just to forward
it on to the new number. Maybe it does have technology to hear
the conversations, but the purpose is to forward it to a
different number.
A. Correct.
Q. And this was the call forwarding, if you will, for the web
site.
A. That was one of the roles that it played.
Q. Now, you heard me question Detective Nelson about Network
Solutions?
A. I did.
Q. Are you familiar with that company?
A. Yes, sir, I am.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
MARSHALL - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL II, 388
Q. It's a multi-billion dollar company, isn't it?
A. I believe so.
Q. And, in fact, they register many domain names such as very
obscene domain names, do they not?
A. If there is a domain name registered, it is -- Network
Solutions basically owns the ultimate database, the final
database, of all domain names. Registering them can be
registered through a multitude of different companies including
Network Solutions. But eventually the domain name needs to
reside in a database that is managed and -- managed by Network
Solutions.
Q. Such as the domain name of Children Forced To Porn, or
Fucking Little Girls, Network Solutions would have that name
within their system.
A. That name would be in the domain database, correct.
Q. And they make money off that name.
A. Not necessarily. They would only make money off the names
that they register. There are other companies that register
domain names and then pass them to Network Solutions who, based
upon the agreement, must place those in the domain
registration. But they do make money off of selling domain
names.
Q. But they -- even when they place them within their
database or whatever, they still get a cut of whatever the fee
was for the registration.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
MARSHALL - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL II, 389
A. Well, I couldn't talk to the financial model that Network
Solutions has with other registers.
Q. If on the routing slip issue, the document that has the
map -- and we talked about that previously?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What role does a company such as Bell Atlantic serve?
A. Bell Atlantic, I think a good analogy would be that they
provide the highway for the packet to travel through the
internet.
Q. Okay.
MR. HEISKELL: Could you put that graphic back up,
the one we had before.
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. So Bell Atlantic, which is another big corporation --
A. Correct.
Q. -- would provide the highway, if, you will, in which these
links and images would travel over the internet.
A. Correct.
Q. So without Bell Atlantic, none of this could take place.
A. Without a Bell Atlantic-like company.
Q. Right. Or a company similar to Bell Atlantic.
A. Without connectivity of some type, those systems would
have a hard time communicating with each other.
Q. And, of course, those companies nor anyone at those
companies were charged in this conspiracy, were they?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
MARSHALL - REDIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 390
A. I'm sorry?
Q. Those companies nor anybody employed at those companies
were charged in this conspiracy; isn't that true?
A. It's my understanding that they were not charged.
MR. HEISKELL: Pass the witness.
THE COURT: Will there be redirect?
MS. MOORE: Judge, I do have two things to follow up
on.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. First of all, Mr. Marshall, you had testified previously
that from Steve Nelson's computer in Dallas, Texas, to wherever
-- whichever one of these web sites he purchased resided,
whether it was California or Virginia, New York, Japan,
whatever, his attempt to get there to see the images affected
interstate commerce.
A. Yes, they did.
Q. Then Mr. Ball asked you what about the images once he
accessed them and they were transported then to Mr. Nelson.
And you said, well, it's more complicated than that. Do you
remember that?
A. I do.
Q. Here's my question: Did those images in going back to
Detective Nelson travel through interstate commerce?
A. Yes, ma'am, they did.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
MARSHALL - REDIRECT - MOORE VOL II, 391
Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Heiskell asked you whether -- Well, he
just assumed that F'ing Little Kids was a registered domain
name. Do you have any knowledge as to whether it is or not?
A. Well --
Q. Or not F'ing Little Kids. Children of Porn I think he
asked you.
A. Okay. That domain name would have to be registered for a
customer to access that site. Part of the protocol, the rules
of the internet, is to have a domain name that is available for
users to access. That domain name needs to be registered, and
the registration is what allows it to get into this master
database of domain names.
Q. Okay. And so you don't know if it's Matahari or however,
monatari.com (phonetics), or whether it's actually Children
Forced To Porn?
A. I don't know which one of those names are, but for a
domain name to be available for customers on the internet, it
has to be registered.
Q. Okay. But I guess my question is: Do you know whether or
not it is a registered name?
A. No, I do not.
Q. Okay. Thank you.
MS. MOORE: Pass the witness.
THE COURT: You may step down, sir. Thank you.
We'll quit for today. Do any of you have any questions?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL II, 392
(No response.)
THE COURT: All right. Did you find your parking
places okay? We'll ask you, then, to be available in time to
come down at 9:00 in the morning, and we'll pick up here. I
think we made good progress today, and we'll continue tomorrow.
Please remember all of the previous instructions that I've
given you, especially those about not discussing the case with
anyone including those at home.
(Jury out, 5:25 p.m.)
THE COURT: Is there any matter we need to take up
now outside the hearing of the jury?
MR. HEISKELL: Judge, how many hours? Are you
keeping track?
THE COURT: The government has consumed two hours and
55 minutes, and the defense has consumed three hours and two
minutes.
MR. HEISKELL: Thanks.
(End of proceedings for the day, 5:25 p.m.)
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
censored - names have been overwritten by UKLR to protect identities
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS FORT WORTH DIVISION
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA . CRIMINAL ACTION NO. . 4:00-CR-054-Y VS. . . THOMAS REEDY (1) . November 29, 2000 JANICE REEDY (2) . 9:30 a.m. LANDSLIDE, INC. (3) . . . . . .
VOLUME III TRIAL TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE THE HONORABLE TERRY R. MEANS UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE, and a jury.
APPEARANCES:
For the United States: Ms. Terri M. Moore Mr. Ronald C.H. Eddins Assistant United States Attorneys 801 Cherry Street, Suite 1700 Fort Worth, Texas 76102 (817) 252-5200
For Defendant Thomas Mr. Wes Ball Reedy and Landslide, Inc.: Ball & Hase 4025 Woodland Park Boulevard Suite 100 Arlington, Texas 76013 (817) 860-5000 For Defendant Janice Reedy: Mr. Michael P. Heiskell Johnson, Vaughn & Heiskell 600 Texas Street, Second Floor Fort Worth, Texas 76102-4612 (817) 877-5321
Official Court Reporter: Eileen M. Brewer 501 West Tenth Street Fort Worth, Texas 76102-3637 (817) 334-0104
Proceedings recorded by mechanical stenography, transcript produced by computer-aided transcription.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
I N D E X
GOVERNMENT'S DIRECT EVIDENCE
Voir Direct Cross Redirect Recross Dire Court WITNESSES: Joseph Ullmann 397 408 411 Kathleen Mendoza 415 -- David 418 -- Hirobayashi John Hornak 420 438 445 452 Dane Ritcheson 453 457 459 461 487 488 516 559 Steed Huggins 572 602 612
GOVERNMENT'S DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE
No. Description Offered Admitted
BP-1 Photographs of Business 404 405 thru Location BP-2
CP-1 Photographs of Reedys' 404 405 thru Vehicles CP-4
IBM-1 Business Records of IBM 417 417
JR-A-1 E-mail Messages 489 489 thru JR-A-19
JR-A-20 Copy of QuickBook Files 487 488 LS-1 Articles of Incorporation 571 571 NS-1 Business Records of Network 426 426 thru Solutions NS-7
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
I N D E X
GOVERNMENT'S DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE CONTINUED
No. Description Offered Admitted
RP-1 Photographs of Reedys' 404 405 thru Residence RP-5
Sun 1.1 E-mail Messages 508 509 thru 1.9 Sun 1.10 Banner Graphics 509 509 thru 1.63
Sun 1.64 Orates Table 509 510 Sun 1.65 AVS Database Backup 510 510 Sun 1.66 AVS Database Backup 510 510 Sun 1.67 AVS Adult Classifieds 511 511 Sun 2.1 Banner Graphics 511 512 thru 2.30 Sun 2.31 AVS Database Files 511 512 Sun 2.32 AVS Database Files 511 512 Sun 2.33 Web Page 511 512 Sun 2.34 Web Page 511 512 Sun 2.35 Banner Graphics 511 512 Sun 2.36 Banner Graphics 511 512 TR-A Micron Desktop Computer 399 401 TR-A-1 E-mail Messages 468 468 thru TR-A-9
TR-A-10 Images of Child Pornography 457 461 thru TR-A-80
TR-A-81 Paint Shop Pro Images 464 464 thru TR-A-86
TR-B Sharp Notebook Computer 402 403
TR-B-1 Images of Child Pornography 482 482 thru TR-B-3
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
I N D E X
GOVERNMENT'S DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE CONTINUED
No. Description Offered Admitted TR-B-4 Banner Images 483 483 thru TR-B-8
TR-B-9 Adult Classifieds 484 484
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
ULLMANN - DIRECT - MOORE VOL III, 397
P R 0 C E E D I N G S,
THE COURT: The government may call its next witness.
MS. MOORE: We'll call Joe Ullmann.
THE COURT: While we're waiting, were you able to
avoid publicity? No one saw anything or read or heard
anything?
(No response.)
THE COURT: Good. There has been some, and so you
need to be very careful to avoid coverage of this trial in the
media.
Have you previously been sworn?
MR. ULLMANN: No, sir.
THE COURT: Please raise your right hand.
(The witness is sworn.)
THE COURT: You may be seated, sir.
JOSEPH J. ULLMANN,
having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Will you introduce yourself, please, sir.
A. My name is Joseph J. Ullmann, U-L-L-M-A-N-N, and I'm a
special agent with the FBI in Dallas.
Q. How long have you worked for the FBI?
A. Fourteen years as an agent; 20 years altogether.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
ULLMANN - DIRECT - MOORE VOL III, 398
Q. So you worked for the FBI before becoming an agent, then.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Are you assigned to any particular division within
the FBI?
A. I'm assigned to the Dallas Division Violent Crimes Squad.
I'm the Crimes Against Children Coordinator.
Q. Agent Ullmann, did you have an occasion to aid the United
States Postal Inspection Service in executing a warrant at
Thomas and Janice Reedys' residence here in the Northern
District of Texas back on September the 8th, 1999?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Can you tell us where their residence was located?
A. It was on Loral Oaks (sic).
Q. Okay. In what part of the county, northeast part -
northwest part of the county?
A. I believe that's correct.
Q. And what was your purpose of going to their residence?
A. To execute a search warrant.
Q. Okay. And what were you to look for?
A. Basically anything dealing with child pornography.
Q. And in addition to having a warrant to enter their
residence, did you obtain warrants to seize two computers at
their residence?
A. Later on in the day we did, yes.
Q. Later on in the day, did you in fact seize two computers?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
ULLMANN - DIRECT - MOORE VOL III, 399
A. Yes, we did, a desk top and a laptop, or a notebook
computer.
MS. MOORE: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
Or, actually, may I have an agent help me approach the
witness?
THE COURT: You may. BY MS. MOORE:
Q. I want to show you first what's marked, Agent Ullmann, as
TR-A. Do you recognize what's been shown to you now as TR-A?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Have you seen it before coming into court today?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay.
A. The day of the search I did, yes.
Q. Did you seize this from the Reedys' residence?
A. Yes, it was seized at my direction.
Q. And what is TR-A?
A. It's a desktop.
Q. Computer?
A. Yes.
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, I would offer Government's
Exhibit TR-A.
THE COURT: TR-A?
MS. MOORE: TR-A.
MR. BALL: Judge, we would object to the admission
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
ULLMANN - DIRECT - MOORE VOL III, 400
of TR-A as being outside the scope of the warrant.
THE COURT: It's outside the scope of --
(Government counsel and defense counsel confer.)
MR. BALL: Judge, we would object for the other
reasons set out in the pretrial motion.
MR. HEISKELL: And, excuse me, Your Honor, may I
also take the witness on voir dire briefly?
THE COURT: Well, let me have counsel at the bench.
(Bench conference with all attorneys:)
THE COURT: All right. We've had an objection based
on -- Tell me again.
MR. BALL: The objection, outside the scope of the
warrant which is included in the government's response to
defendant's motion to suppress. Also, the warrant doesn't
provide sufficient probable cause; the other reasons set out
in the motion to suppress.
MS. MOORE: Judge, there was specifically a warrant
for both of these computers. There was a warrant to go in the
residence. He went in the residence, saw the computers, and
phoned in and we went and got separate warrants for each
computer.
MR. HEISKELL: Judge, I was going to -- For voir
dire purposes I don't think the foundation has been laid as
far as where the computer was seized.
THE COURT: And the foundation has been laid for --
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MR. HEISKELL: For the admission, since we don't
know exactly where the computer was in that home. You said it
was inside the home.
MS. MOORE: I just did inside the home. I will go
back and lay that out.
THE COURT: I don't think that's necessary. You've
heard Ms. Moore tell you -- say that she has a warrant,
describes the computer.
MR. BALL: That may be -- The warrant may specify --
There were some warrants that specified specific items, and
when I made the objection originally I wasn't clear whether
this was one of the ones that was specified. If it is --
MS. MOORE: It is. It gives the serial numbers.
THE COURT: The objection is overruled.
MR. BALL: Thank you.
(End of bench conference.)
THE COURT: The objection is overruled.
You may proceed.
MS. MOORE: Is TR-A admitted, Your Honor?
THE COURT: It is admitted. Thank you.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Agent Ullmann, you also seized, in addition to that --
you call it a desktop?
A. That's what I call it, yes.
Q. You also seized another computer?
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A. Yes. A notebook, or a laptop.
Q. And did you have a warrant for that computer as well?
A. Not initially. Like I mentioned earlier, we got two
additional warrants for those specific -- We got additional
warrants for those specific items.
Q. You went to the house with a warrant. Once you got to
the house, you then went back -- or another agent went back
and asked for two more warrants, one for the desktop and one
for the laptop?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. So when you took the laptop, you took it pursuant
to a warrant?
A. Yes.
MS. MOORE: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Agent Ullmann, let me show you what's been marked as TR-B
and ask if you can recognize that item?
A. Yes. This is the notebook, or laptop, that was located
in the -- I called it the movie room.
Q. Okay. Of the residence?
A. Of the residence, yes.
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, I would offer TR-B.
MR. BALL: Since there was a warrant, I believe, the
testimony for this, we would make the other objections made to
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
ULLMANN - DIRECT - MOORE VOL III, 403
the previous exhibit set out in the motion.
THE COURT: Okay. Overruled.
MR. BALL: Thank you.
THE COURT: TR-B is admitted.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Agent Ullmann, when you got to the residence on that day,
can you tell the jury whether or not anybody was home?
A. Not -- We were led there by Ms. Reedy. We left the
location on Seaman Street and drove to the residence. We
basically followed Ms. Reedy there and she let us in.
Q. Okay. So I should back up and ask you where you went
first.
A. I was initially at Landslide on Seaman Street, and I had
directed another agent to go and knock on the door at the
residence of the Reedys and ask Mr. Reedy to come to
Landslide.
Q. Okay. And so Mr. Reedy then came down to the business on
Semen Street?
A. Yes.
Q. And then from the business y'all went back to the house?
A. Later on in the day we did, yes.
Q. And that's when you did this searching and seizing of the
computers?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Agent Ullmann, let me show you -- Look in your binder up
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ULLMANN - DIRECT - MOORE VOL III, 404
there, the first exhibit which is marked Government's Exhibit
RP-1 and ask you if you recognize that?
A. Yes.
Q. In fact, let me have you look through a series of those.
Look at RP-1, RP-2, RP-3, RP-4, RP-5, CP-1, CP-2, CP-3, B as
in boy, BP-1 and BP-2. Look at all of those.
A. Okay.
Q. Do you recognize what is depicted in each of those
exhibits I just asked you to look at?
A. Yes, I do. It's the residence, and the last two pictures
are of the business.
Q. Okay. And those are photographs, right, RP-1 through
BP-2?
A. Yes.
Q. And do those photographs fairly and accurately represent
the pictures that they've been taken of?
A. Yes, they do.
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, I would offer RP-1 through
BP-2.
MR. HEISKELL: Judge, we have no objections to RP-1.
We would object to RP-2 as to relevance under Rule 403. No
objection to RP-3. We object to RP-4 for the same objection,
403 relevance. Same objection as to RP-5, Your Honor, and RP
-- I'm sorry, CP-1, CP-2, CP-3, CP-4, same objections. And no
objection to BP-1 and BP-2.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
ULLMANN - DIRECT - MOORE VOL III, 405
THE COURT: You have now offered all of the exhibits
where the sponsoring witness on your exhibit list is Ullmann?
MS. MOORE: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: All objections are overruled. All
exhibits are admitted.
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, may I have permission to
publish RP-1?
THE COURT: You may.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Agent Ullmann, looking in front of you there on the
screen where we're publishing RP-l, can you tell the jury what
that is?
A. That's a photograph of the Reedy residence.
Q. And that's the residence you searched --
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. -- on September the 8th of 1999?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay.
MS. MOORE: RP-2.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. And what is that a photograph of?
A. It's another photograph of the residence.
Q. Just a different point of view?
A. Yes.
Q. Different part of -- side of the house?
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A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Is that the back of the house or side of the house?
A. Kind of toward the side. If you're standing in front of
the house, it would be off to your right.
Q. Okay. And RP-3, what's depicted there in that
photograph?
A. I believe this was Mr. Reedy's office, and that's the
computer there on the floor that we seized.
Q. Do you have that little laser pointer up there?
A. Yes, ma'am.
If you could point out which computer you're referring
to?
A. Right there (indicating).
Q. Okay. And that's what's already in evidence that you
seized here, TR-A?
A. Yes, ma'am.
MS. MOORE: RP-4.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. What are we seeing in that photograph?
A. It's a photograph of what we referred to as the movie
room, and the desktop was located right there -- I mean, the
laptop, or notebook.
Q. It's kind of there on the edge of the coffee table?
A. Yes.
Q. What room did you call this?
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A. The movie room.
Q. What makes you think it's a movie room?
A. It was just set up -- There's a big screen in the back
there. There was also, from the angle this picture was taken
from, it looked as if you could put a projector up in the door
and show movies.
Q. Okay.
MS. MOORE: And RP-5.
A. It's another angle, a different angle. This is the hole
in the wall where I thought you could put a projector or a
lens through and show movies, and that's the desktop right
there.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. I'm sorry. I missed. Where is the laptop?
A. Right there (indicating.)
Q. Okay. And CP-2, Same vehicle?
A. Another angle of the same vehicle.
Q. Okay. CP-3? A. Again, same vehicle.
Q. And CP-4, same vehicle different view?
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ULLMANN - CROSS - BALL VOL ITI, 408
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Okay. How about B, as in boy, BP-l. What is shown
there, Agent Ullmann?
A. It's a photograph of the business on Semen Street.
Q. Okay. And is Semen Street located here in Fort Worth,
Texas?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. In the Northern District of Texas?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Okay. And BP-2?
A. It's another photograph of the residence -- I mean, of
the business. I'm sorry.
Q. What part of town is that in?
A. I'm not real familiar with Fort Worth. I work over in
Dallas most of the time. It's a business area, I remember.
Q. All right. You just remember Semen Street.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Okay. That's fine.
MS. MOORE: I'll pass the witness, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Will there be cross?
MR. BALL: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may proceed.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. BALL:
Q. Agent Ullmann, how long did the execution of the search
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
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warrant at the residence take place approximately, sir?
A. We got there after lunch, and we were there into the
night only because we had to wait on the warrants to seize the
two computers.
Q. Okay. So what was the total time you were there?
A. We were probably there at least seven hours.
Q. All right. Other than the items, the two computers that
have been admitted into evidence, the hard drives, I guess,
any other items seized from the residence?
A. A number of documents were seized.
Q. All right. Any items -- Let me back up. The house, did
it appear to be a normal residence of some large size?
A. Yes, it was a very nice residence.
Q. All right. Kitchen, bedrooms, garage?
A. Yes.
Q. All the things that one might see in a nice home?
A. Absolutely, yes.
Q. All right. Was there anything in the home that indicated
that there was any -- from an observation point of view that
there was anything illegal going on?
A. No, not at all.
Q. All right. Pictures of family sitting about, things of
that sort?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Now, the business residence, or the business
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
ULLMANN - CROSS - BALL VOL III, 410
address that was shown on the photographs, that was on Semen?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. Were you there during the execution or search
and seizure of that location?
A. I was there initially. I was there until Ms. Reedy was
done speaking with the postal inspectors, and then, like I
said, she led us to the residence.
Q. Did you participate in the seizure of any items at that
location?
A. Not on Semen Street, no.
Q. All right. Do you know if items were seized at that
location?
A. Yes, it's my understanding a number of items were seized.
Q. Quite a large number of items?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Now, the exhibits that have been admitted
into evidence, they weren't actually seized in that form.
Those were removed, I gather, from the computers, TR-A and B?
A. They were broken down, yes.
Q. Was that done at the location?
A. No.
Q. Were you present when that was done?
A. When they were broken down?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. No, sir.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
ULLMANN - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL III, 411
Q. All right. So when they were originally seized, they
were in the form that one might normally see a computer tower
or a laptop or notebook computer, correct, sir?
A. Yeah, just like they were in the pictures, that's exactly
how they were taken.
Q. And where did you take them?
A. Where did I take them?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. I didn't take them anywhere. They were transported by a
postal inspector.
MR. BALL: Thank you, sir. I'll pass the witness.
THE COURT: Mr. Heiskell.
MR. HEISKELL: Yes, sir.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. Agent Ullmann, I have a few questions of you, sir. You
indicated that Ms. Reedy led you to their home here in Fort
Worth, correct?
A. Yes. It was my understanding that Mr. Reedy locked the
residence when he left, and Ms. Reedy had the key so she just
led us back there.
Q. At the Semen address, the business address, did you talk
to Ms. Reedy there, see Ms. Reedy there?
A. Briefly.
Q. And prior to going into a search warrant, I take it you
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
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and the other agents meet to discuss the logistics of how you
would execute the search warrant; is that correct?
A. Yes, we met a couple of times.
Q. And you also talk about the possibility of who might be
at the particular business, in order to make sure that those
persons are perhaps segregated or talked to, et cetera. Am I
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And you also have a list of people, for instance, a
management team, that you would want to talk to, people in
control, such as the technical supervisors or technical
contacts, you would want to talk to those people, the people
who actually handle the technical aspect.
A. Yes.
Q. And you knew that person was a Tom Hughes, correct?
A. At the time I didn't know what Mr. Hughes' specific
function was.
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, I'd have to object to that.
It goes beyond the scope of cross-examination.
THE COURT: It would appear to.
MS. MOORE: Or direct examination.
THE COURT: It would appear to.
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. Well, let me ask it this way. Mr. Ullmann, did you or
any of the agents ever search Mr. Hughes' residence?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
ULLMANN - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL III, 413
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you also see a Mr. Breitbarth, a CPA, at that
location?
A. I believe he was there, yes.
Q. Did y'all search his residence?
A. No, sir.
Q. Ms. Reedy, as indicated, was cooperative and she went to
the home with you or with other agents, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And she opened the door for you.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. She didn't attempt to hide anything, did she?
A. No, sir. Nobody attempted to hide anything.
Q. Or didn't attempt to destroy anything.
A. No.
Q. Didn't attempt in any way to try to prevent you or any of
the other agents from coming in the home and looking
willy-nilly throughout the house. Isn't that true?
A. No, sir. She was very nice.
Q. And that place you described as Mr. Reedy's office, I'm
not sure what exhibit it was that we saw on the screen back
there, that's where you got the first exhibit, TR-B; is that
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And, by the way, did you submit TR-B or TR-A to any
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laboratory for fingerprints as to who was handling those
computers?
A. Not to my knowledge it wasn't, no.
Q. And that would be able to tell you who was actually
handling the computer or even the laptop, if you were to do
that, correct?
A. Yes. You could say that, yes.
Q. At that time did y'all have the known prints of Thomas
Hughes or any other person in your possession?
A. No, I did not.
MR. HEISKELL: Pass the witness.
THE COURT: Will there be redirect?
MS. MOORE: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down, sir. Thank you.
May this witness be excused?
MS. MOORE: Yes, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Yes.
THE COURT: You're free to go as well, sir.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURT: You may call your next witness.
MR. EDDINS: Government calls Kathy Mendoza, Your
Honor, the records custodian for IBM.
THE COURT: Which reminds me. I have not asked you
to state the counts about which each witness will be
testifying. I inferred that the first two witnesses were
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
MENDOZA - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 415
testifying basically about all.
MS. MOORE: That's true, Your Honor, and Agent
Ullmann testified about the possession count.
THE COURT: All right.
MS. MOORE: That would have been Count 89.
THE COURT: All right. So first two, all counts;
last witness, Count 89.
MS. MOORE: And this witness, Your Honor, will be
for Count 89 as well.
THE COURT: All right.
Ma'am, if you'll please step forward, I will administer
the oath. Please raise your right hand to be sworn.
(The witness is sworn.)
THE COURT: You may be seated.
KATHLEEN MENDOZA,
having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. Would you state your name, please, ma'am.
A. Kathleen Mendoza.
Q. And how are you employed and in what capacity?
A. I'm employed by IBM, and I manage the world wide warranty
and service operations for their hard disk drive division.
Q. Ms. Mendoza, are you also the custodian of certain
records for IBM?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
MENDOZA - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 416
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Now, you have there in front of you what's been marked
and admitted by the Court as Government's Exhibit TR-A; is
that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you familiar with Government's Exhibit TR-A?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. All right. What is Government's Exhibit TR-A?
A. It's a three and a half inch 8.4 gigabyte hard disk
drive.
Q. And are you familiar with the manufacturing by IBM of
that hard drive?
A. Yes, I am. It was manufactured at one of our plants in
Thailand.
Q. Okay. Are there customs, importation identifiers, on
that hard drive to identify where that was manufactured by
IBM?
A. Yes. This says it was made in Thailand.
Q. All right. You have also brought with you, I believe,
certain business records of IBM; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
MR. EDDINS: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. You have what's been marked for identification purposes
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
MENDOZA - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 417
as Government's Exhibit IBM-l; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Are those a part of the business records of IBM?
A. Yes, they are.
MR. EDDINS: We would move to admit IBM-l, Your
Honor.
THE COURT: Hearing no objection, it's admitted.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. Will you tell the jury what IBM-1 represents?
A. This is our customer invoice for the sale of the hard
disk drive from IBM to Micron Electronics on 9-30-1997.
Q. Okay. So with Government's Exhibit IBM-1, the
manufacturing, importation, and sale documents, does that tell
you that IBM manufactured that hard drive overseas, imported
it into this country, and sold it to Micron for distribution
in the United States of America?
A. Yes, it does.
MR. EDDINS: I'll pass the witness, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Is there cross?
MR. BALL: None from Defendant Reedy or Landslide.
MR. HEISKELL: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down, ma'am. Thank you.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURT: Unless I hear objection, you're free to
go as well.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HIROBAYASHI - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 418
I'm not finding IBM-1. I know it's here, but give me a
little help on the page.
MR. EDDINS: It's on page 13, Your Honor, of the
government's exhibit list.
THE COURT: I see it. Thank you.
You may call your next witness.
MR. EDDINS: Call David Hirobayashi.
THE COURT: Who will testify concerning Count?
MR. EDDINS: The Sharp laptop computer, Count 89.
THE COURT: Please raise your right hand to be
sworn.
(The witness is sworn.)
THE COURT: You may be seated, sir.
DAVID K. HIROBAYASHI,
having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. Would you state your full name, please, sir.
A. David Kenji (phonetics) Hirobayashi.
Q. And where do you live, Mr. Hirobayashi?
A. In Midlotian, Texas.
Q. And how are you employed and in what capacity?
A. I'm the senior operations manager for Sharp Electronics
over the Dallas area.
Q. All right, sir. Are you familiar with Sharp laptop
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HIROBAYASHI - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 419
computer manufacturing and distribution procedures?
A. Yes.
Q. You have in front of you what's been admitted into
evidence by the Court as Government's Exhibit TR-B, which is a
Sharp laptop computer. Are you familiar with that computer,
Mr. Hirobayashi?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Can you tell us where that computer was manufactured by
Sharp?
A. That was manufactured in Japan.
Q. All right, sir. And was it imported from Japan by Sharp
for distribution and sale in the United States of America?
A. Yes.
MR. EDDINS: I'll pass the witness, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Will there be cross-examination?
MR. BALL: No questions.
MR. HEISKELL: No questions.
THE COURT: You may step down, sir. Unless I hear
objection, you're free to go.
THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.
THE COURT: Next witness.
MR. EDDINS: Call John Hornak, Your Honor.
THE COURT: And the Count will be?
MR. EDDINS: This will actually be relative to all
counts of the indictment, Your Honor.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HORNAK - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 420
THE COURT: All right. What did you say
Mr. Hornak's first name is?
MR. EDDINS: John Hornak.
THE COURT: Hornak.
MR. EDDINS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Mr. Hornak, if you'll step forward here,
I'll administer the oath.
MR. HORNAK: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Please raise your right hand to be
sworn.
(The witness is sworn.)
THE COURT: Does it matter that that's your left
hand?
MR. HORNAK: No, sir.
THE COURT: I think the oath is still taken. You
may be seated.
MR. HORNAK: Thank you, sir.
JOHN HORNAK,
having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. Would you state your full name, please, sir.
A. Yes.
Q. And what is it?
A. John Hornak, sir.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HORNAK - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 421
THE COURT: I've been waiting for someone to answer
that way, and I appreciate that.
Go ahead.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. Where do you live, Mr. Hornak?
A. Herndon, Virginia, sir.
Q. And how are you employed and in what capacity?
A. I work for Network Solutions, which is a Verisign
Company as the senior investigator for corporate
administrations.
Q. All right, sir. And are you also the custodian of
certain records for Network Solutions?
A. Yes, sir, I am.
Q. All right. And I'll ask you what Network Solutions is.
A. Network Solutions is a registrar as well as a registry
for the top-level domain names and second-level domain names,
dot com, dot net, dot org, dot edu. And in so registering of
the domain names on behalf of the registrants, that's
basically what our company does, plus value-added services.
Q. All right. What is a domain name, Mr. Hornak?
A. A domain name is a unique string of characters that
resolves from -- basically in simple terms, it's an
alphanumeric character string followed by a dot net, dot com,
dot org, that leads over to a computer site which is
represented by a string of numbers.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HORNAK - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 422
Q. Okay. And why do people register domain names with your
company?
A. Well, prior to June of 1999, Network Solutions was the
only company to register them. Now there's more than one
registrar, but to register a domain name you need a domain
name to get from point A to point B without having to memorize
a string of characters. So if there is a web site or an
e-mail address that you need to get to, you have to use the
domain name unless you want to memorize a string of characters
divided by three periods.
Q. Okay. You said if somebody wants to get from point A to
point B. Is this on the world wide internet?
A. It's on the world wide internet as well as the internet
itself. The www part is one of the main internet site
locations. It's one of the main computers that everything
runs through, but it is not the internet itself. The internet
is a group of computers that are all interconnected.
Q. Okay. If a person wants to register a domain name on the
internet, is it up to that person to decide what name they
want to register it?
A. It's up to the registrant, yes, sir.
Q. Okay. Are there any legal criterion, as far as Network
Solutions is concerned, for picking the name that a person
would want to use as a domain name?
A. I don't believe there's a legal criteria. There are
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HORNAK - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 423
certain technical criteria involved. You can't exceed a
certain amount of characters. At this point I do believe it's
64 characters long.
Q. Okay. Now, if a person wants to register a domain name
for whatever purpose that person chooses to do that, how do
they register the name that they choose with Network
Solutions?
A. They can do it one of two ways. They can register
online, which they go to Network Solutions' web site, provide
all the information, and pay by credit card there. Then
there's also a way that they can go in and fill out an
electronic form, which we call a template. And by filling
that out and providing the correct information that we need,
they also agree to the service agreement, they send that in,
and Network Solutions registers the domain name, which
basically we put into our database.
Q. Now, when a person is registering a domain name with
Network Solutions, is there any verification or checking by
Network Solutions of the information that that customer puts
into the computer?
A. No, sir. The only check that is done is the completeness
of the information, that all the required fields are filled
out.
Q. All right, sir. Is there any check to determine what
kind of business that particular individual may actually use
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HORNAK - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 424
the domain name for?
A. No, sir.
Q. I believe you have provided, pursuant to subpoena,
certain business records of Network Solutions, Inc.; is that
correct?
A. That is correct, sir.
Q. Now, before we go into those, when a person registers a
chosen domain name with Network Solutions, do those entry of
records become a part of the business records of Network
Solutions, Inc.?
A. They become part of the database records. That is
correct, sir.
Q. All right, sir. So when Network Solutions receives this
information for a domain name, what happens? What does
Network Solutions do with that information when it's received?
A. Again, when it's received we go through and check for the
completeness of the form, that all the required fields are
filled out, and that the domain name is a unique character
string, that there are no two specific domain names that are
exactly alike.
Q. Why is that done?
A. Because, again, if you went to, just an example john.com,
you want to make sure you go specifically to the location that
is specified by the registrant for john.com and not for 20 or
30 different people that have supposedly a john.com, because
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HORNAK - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 425
each domain name has to be a unique set of character strings.
Q, Okay. If a registrant chooses the same name for
registration purposes, what happens?
A. An invalid entry is sent back -- If it's done online,
they get a disqualification that this domain name has already
been registered. Please choose another. And if they do it
via the template system where they e-mail into Network
Solutions, then they're going to get an e-mail response that
says, unfortunately, this domain name that you have requested
is taken. Please choose another.
Q, Okay. Now, once the registrant makes application with
Network Solutions by computer, is there a charge if Network
Solutions issues the domain name based on that application?
A. There is a $35 a year registration fee, and up until, I
believe, the beginning of this year, it was $70 for a two-year
original registration fee and then $35 a year after that
point.
Q, All right, sir.
MR. EDDINS: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. Mr. Hornak, you have in front of you what's been marked
for identification purposes as Government's Exhibits NS-1
through NS-7, which stands for Network Solutions; is that
correct?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HORNAK - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 426
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are you familiar with those documents?
A. Yes, sir, I am.
Q. Are they a part of the business records of Network
Solutions, Inc.?
A. Yes, sir, they are.
Q. I believe there are also invoices that are a part of each
one of those documents; is that correct?
A. They are the internal invoice tracking system, that is
correct, sir.
Q. All right, sir. And are those records kept in the normal
course of business of Network Solutions?
A. Yes, sir, they are.
Q. Is it a part -- Are those a part of the records that
you've described that Network Solutions keeps in the normal
course of their business?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And do they truly and accurately reflect the part of the
business of Network Solutions?
A. Yes, sir, they do.
MR. EDDINS: We would offer as business records NS-1
through NS-7.
MR. BALL: No objection.
THE COURT: NS-1 through NS-7 are admitted.
BY MR. EDDINS:
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HORNAK - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 427
Q. Turning to Government's Exhibit NS-l, Mr. Hornak --
A. Yes, sir.
Q. -- who is the registrant in this case?
A. Landslide, Inc.
Q. And out beside the name Landslide, Inc., it has
Landslide-DOM. What does that mean?
A. That is a handle, which is a unique identifier for this
specific domain name. If we would go through our records and
we found the next registration, which would be landslide.net,
that would be represented by Landslide2-DOM. Again, it
doesn't take into consideration the com, net, or org. It's
just a unique identifier for this specific domain record.
Q. All right, sir. And what is the domain name that was
applied for on NS-1?
A. That would be landslide.com.
Q. And who would have been the person identified in this
application as the administrative contact, billing contact?
A. That would be Reedy, Tom.
Q. And it also refers to houdini@landslide.com; is that
correct?
A. That is the e-mail address for the administrative and
technical billing contact, yes, sir.
Q. So that if Network Solutions needed to contact the person
who was saying they would pay the bill to get this particular
domain name, would that be the person at that e-mail address
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HORNAK - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 428
that Network Solutions would contact?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The technical contact is shown as who?
A. Landslide, netadmin.
Q. And how would that be used by Network Solutions, your
company?
A, Usually if there was a technical issue, Network Solutions
doesn't contact specifically the technical contact. That is
who takes care of the server information. Usually it's
information set down for the general public. If somebody
tries to get to the web site and there's a technical issue
where, site not found, they would generally call the technical
contact.
Q. All right, sir. And both the administrative contact and
technical contact are listed as PO Box 936, Fort Worth, Texas;
is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. On down on that record there is a record last update,
record expires, record created, and database last updated.
What do those mean?
A. Well, beginning with the top one, record last updated,
December 21st, 1999. That was the last time, up until the
point of this printing of this information, was the last time
any modification was done to this specific record. Record
expiration date, that is the date that the service agreement
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HORNAK - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 429
or the contract is due to be re-registered at that point.
Record creation date, that is when in our database the domain
name registration application was actually processed and the
domain name was created. And that was also the last date that
Landslide, Inc., the registrant, was changed.
Q. All right, sir. So does that mean from 22 March 1995 to
23 March 2001, this domain name existed as the registrant in
the -- with the information contained in this document?
A. No. That would be -- only the Landslide, Inc., would
have stayed the same from the 1995 date through the date of
printing, which is July 20 -- or July 2000. From December
21st, 1999, until July 9th, 2000, which is date of printing,
none of the information was changed.
Q. Now, Mr. Hornak, is there any requirement as far as
Network Solutions is concerned, for purposes of obtaining a
domain name to be used on the internet domain that the person
be a real person or a company or can it be just a dba?
A. Again, Network Solutions doesn't take any position. What
we do is we require, to the best of the registrant or the
agent registering the domain name on behalf of the registrant,
to provide as accurate and technically and physically correct
information.
Q. Is there any check by Network Solutions to determine the
relationship between various domain names? You've brought
seven of those here. Is there any checking prior to issuance
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HORNAK - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 430
of a domain name to determine if there's any relationship
between the domain names issued to the same person?
A. No, sir.
Q. And the next piece of information on Government's Exhibit
NS-1 is domain servers in listed order. What does that mean?
A. Those are the primary and secondary hosting computers.
This is what Network Solutions does is we take -- somebody
types in landslide.com and so that people don't have to
memorize 198.175.15.230, I have enough problems memorizing my
own phone number. I wouldn't be able to memorize that. So
what we do is, somebody types in landslide.com and it
redirects that request, and the actual person on the computer
to the hosting computer, which in this case is
www.datacompound.com as the primary -- if that one, for any
reason, goes down or is unavailable, it goes in and makes the
request to nsl.dfw.net.
Q. And based on the records that you've brought to Court, do
you know who the domain name holder for datacompound.com is?
A. According to -- and it is Government's Exhibit NS-5, the
registrant for datacompound.com, the domain name, is
Landslide, Inc.
Q. All right. And the administrative contact, billing
contact?
A. Reedy, Tom.
Q. Houdini?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HORNAK - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 431
A. That would be houdini@landslide.com is the e-mail
address.
Q. All right, sir. Now, also, referring to page number 2 of
Government's Exhibit NS-1, you have in front of you what's
been marked -- what is a part of NS-1, various invoices; is
that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Would you state what those invoices attached to and are a
part of NS-1 are?
A. Okay. There is a total of five invoices, and each one of
these is the internal billing which is BARS, Billing and
Receiving System, that we internally keep track of what was
sent out to the billing contact. In the upper left-hand
corner -- upper left-hand corner, billing contact, Landslide,
Inc., Tom Reedy, PO Box, and then the address there. That
is who is listed -- or was listed at the time of the
generation of the invoice and who we sent the invoices to, the
bills to.
Up in the top, left-hand corner right below where it says
page 1 there's a string of numbers, 960918.13584. That is the
invoicing number; and the phone number, that is, the billing
contact's phone number, the date. And that specific date is
the date due, and we have October 28th, 1996. Net due is--
because of the payment, there's no longer any required
payment, and then there was one item that was quality of one
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HORNAK - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 432
year for the domain name landslide.com, coverage period of
March 22nd, 1996, for the one-year time period, until March
21st, 1997, unit price $50. And by the fact that the net due
was zero, the $50 had been paid.
Q. All right, sir. And then the third page of NS-1?
A. That is the -- similar to, except for the invoice date is
different. It's the next annual invoicing period for March
22nd, 1997, to March 21st, 1998. The date due is going to be
different, but, again, the billing contact is listed as
Landslide Inc., Tom Reedy, with a PO box address. And the
unit price was $50 for the one item, which was one year of
service and with a net due zero. The $50 had been paid.
Q. Without going into each one of those pages, Mr. Hornak,
do these simply show that landslide.com registration fees were
paid to Network Solutions for the period that you indicated?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, referring to Government's Exhibit NS-2, would you
turn to NS-2 that's been admitted into evidence?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who is the registrant for NS-2?
A. Landslide Productions.
Q. And it shows Keyz-DOM; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And would your answer be the same to a question of what
that means that you previously explained to the jury?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HORNAK - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 433
A. Correct. That is the original registration with the
first part before the period part, the keyz.com. It was the
first registration using the unique character KeyZ in that
series.
Q. All right, sir. And the domain name that was applied for
by the registrant?
A. Domain name is keyz.com.
Q. All right, sir. And the administrative contact was Tom
Reedy?
A. Reedy, Tom, yes, sir.
Q. And at houdini@landslide.com; is that correct?
A. That is the e-mail.
Q. The technical contact was landslide@netadmin,
landslide.com?
A. Netadmin, Landslide, yes, sir.
Q. Did I say that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the domain servers for this domain name were
www.datacompound.com, nsl.dfw.net; is that correct?
A. That is correct, sir.
Q. And was the period listed here, it was created on 9
August '96?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And was effective until 10 August 2000; is that correct?
A. As of June 9th, 2000, yes, sir.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HORNAK - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 434
Q. Okay. And the invoices attached show that this was paid;
is that right? Network Solutions was paid for this domain
name.
A. All the invoices show as paid, sir.
Q. And who do they showed paid the invoices?
A. Well, we sent the invoices to the billing contact, which
is Tom Reedy.
Q. Okay. Now, referring to Government's Exhibit NS-3, who
is the registrant there?
A. The registrant is Landslide, Inc.
Q. At ClicZ-DOM?
A. Again, the unique identifier for the specific character
string of ClicZ.
Q. And the domain name that was applied for?
A. Clicz.com.
Q. Now, when the registrant receives this domain name,
clicz.com, can they attach this to whatever advertisings they
want to attach it to on the internet for purposes of having
people come to them?
A. Again, what the registrant uses the domain name for,
Network Solutions doesn't know.
MR. HEISKELL: Judge, I'm sorry. Could he move the
microphone closer?
THE WITNESS: Sorry, sir. What the registrant uses
the domain name for, Network Solutions doesn't know.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HORNAK - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 435
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. But are you familiar with the fact that that can be done,
that domain name can be used in that way?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. And who is the administrative contact, billing
contact, for clicz.com?
A. Reedy, Tom.
Q. And the technical contact is landslide@netadmin,
landslide.com?
A. Netadmin@landslide.com is the e-mail address. That is
correct.
Q. And the period of time that this domain name was paid up
with Network Solutions by these individuals and entities that
you just identified?
A. Can you repeat the question, sir.
Q. The period of time that Network Solutions issued this
domain name to these entities and individuals that you've
identified?
A. Two-year registration from the creation date, which is
October 5th, 1998, until the expired time of October 5th,
2000.
Q. All right, sir. And the domain servers in listed order
are all various landslide.com servers; is that correct?
A. The parent server name is landslide.com on all four of
the servers, sir.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HORNAK - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 436
Q. All right, sir. Can you tell, looking at this document,
what the relationship is between clicz.com and landslide.com?
In other words, does this document actually tell you anything
more than what it simply states?
A. Aside from the fact that landslide.com is associated with
the four host servers, and the e-mail addresses are for the
administrative and technical and billing contacts something at
landslide.com, that's all I can get from this particular piece
of information.
Q. Are domain names valuable property rights?
A. A domain name is not a property from Network Solutions.
It's a contract for services, sir.
Q. Use of a domain name in the internet, is that a desirable
thing to have?
A. Again, as far as Network Solutions is concerned, it's a
$35 a year contract for services.
Q. So do you know whether when someone obtains a particular
domain name for use on the internet what they intend to do
with it?
A. No, sir.
Q. Referring to Government's Exhibit NS-4, this shows
registrant Landslide, Inc, badcard-DOM. The domain name is
badcard.com; is that correct?
A. That is correct, sir.
Q. The administrative contact, billing contact, is Tom
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HORNAK - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 437
Reedy, houdini@landslide.com. The technical contact is
netadmin@landslide.com?
A. That is correct, sir.
Q. The created date is 30 August '98. The expiration is 30
August 2000, and the domain servers are landslide.com; is that
correct?
A. The domain servers are the parent domain names of
landslide.com, that is correct.
Q. All right, sir. Referring to Government's Exhibit NS-5.
Registrant is Landslide, Inc., at Datacompound-DOM. The
domain name is datacompound.com. The administrative contact,
billing contact, is Tom Reedy, houdini@landslide.com.
Technical contact is Landslide, netadmin. The record created
on 25 February '99, expires on 25 February 2001. The domain
servers are datacompound.com, dfw.net; is that correct?
A. That is correct, sir.
Q. Referring to Government's Exhibit NS-6, registrant,
Landslide, Inc. Lookingl0-DOM. The domain name is
looking.net. The administrative contact, Tom Reedy,
houdini@landslide.com. It shows the record creation date 24
June '98, expires on 24 June 2000. Domain servers
datacompound.com, nsl.dfw.net.
And the last exhibit, NS-7, the registrant is shown as
Landslide, Inc., Pussies4u-DOM. The administrative contact is
Tom Reedy at houdini@landslide.com. The technical contact is
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HORNAK - CROSS - BALL VOL III, 438
at Landslide. The created date is 30 August '98 expiring on
30 August 2000. And the domain servers in listed order,
datacompound.com and dfw.net; is that correct?
A. That is correct, sir.
Q. And for each one of these domain names, including this
one, pussies4u.com, were all of these paid by the registrants
to Network Solutions?
A. All the domain names were paid for, sir.
MR. EDDINS: I'll pass the witness, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Will there be cross?
MR. BALL: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I tell you what, let's take a break.
Try to keep this to ten minutes. I know we tend to run over a
little bit, but if I say 15 we'll run over that, too. So
let's try to keep it at 10.
(Court in recess, 10:30 a.m. until 10:54 a.m.)
THE COURT: Cross?
MR. BALL: Yes, Your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. BALL:
Q. Mr. Hornak, the company Network Solutions, the parent
company is Verisign; is that right?
A. That is correct, sir.
Q. And initially I think until June of 1999, if you wanted
to register one of these domain names, Network Solutions was
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HORNAK - CROSS - BALL VOL III, 439
it.
A. For the dot com, dot net, dot org, dot edu, that is
correct, sir.
Q. All right. And the dot com, dot net, dot org, and dot --
Was it edu?
A. Edu, and that stands for education and a four-year degree
granting university.
Q. Okay. Universities would use that for web sites and
things, correct, sir?
A. Again, they would register the domain name. We don't know
what they use it for.
Q. All right. And so initially if I wanted to register a
domain name prior to June of 1999, the only place I could go
was Network Solutions, correct, sir?
A. Well, again, that would come through Network Solutions.
There were other people that would act as agents on behalf of
the registrant. You could go through different companies, but
the registration would have to come through Network Solutions.
Q. All right. And who gave Network Solutions, I guess, the
authority to -- I won't call it a monopoly, but to have the
right to charge people for domain names so they can have
internet presence, or whatever use they wanted to make of it?
A. I do believe that was the government at that point. But,
again, I'm not very familiar with the entire process before I
came to Network Solutions.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HORNAK - CROSS - BALL VOL III, 440
Q. A11 right, sir. And now you can go to other companies to
register domain names besides Network Solutions, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Doesn't Network Solutions still get a cut or a portion of
the fee, registration fee, that's paid?
A. Well, aside from being a registrar, Network Solutions as a
separate, from the registrar portion of the business, is the
registry. And that registry is the main database that holds
all domain names, because, again, we have to make sure there's
only one unique character string per domain name.
Q. All right. And if I want to put a web site on the
internet and I decide it would certainly be to my benefit to
have a domain name, I could seek to register that name, pay a
fee, and then that name is no longer available to other
persons, correct?
A. That particular character string, once it is registered, is
not available to anybody else, sir.
Q. All right. And I may do that even before my web site is
up and running, correct?
A. Again, that would be a business venture on your own, but
Network Solutions, whether there's a site available or not, we
just require the specific information for the registration and
that is all, sir.
Q. All right. And can anyone with a computer and access to
the internet go on the internet and look at portions of Network
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HORNAK - CROSS - BALL VOL III, 441
Solutions' database to see who might have registered a
particular name?
A. That is correct, sir.
Q. All right. In fact, you have a web page or someplace you
can go to and do what's called a WHOIS inquiry, type in a
domain name like landslide.com and it should pull up the
registration information that we saw in, I believe, NS-l.
A. It would pull up the most current record on that, that is
correct, sir.
Q. Okay. I mean, that NS-1 registration information could be
completely different today. That's as it existed at the time
it was run, correct?
A. That is correct, sir.
Q. And so if I wanted to find out who had registered under a
name such as matahari.com, I could go to this WHOIS database
and do that and see what information was there, correct?
A. For most of the time, yes, sir.
Q. All right. Were you asked to run any other names with
regard to this case such as matahari.com,
childrenforcedtoporn.com, childporn.com, anything of that sort,
to bring to court here, some registration information?
A. When the initial request, the subpoena request came in, I
couldn't remember all of the names off the top of my head, sir,
Q. All right. And during the break here -- Well, can I
register the name childporn.com?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HORNAK - CROSS - BALL VOL III, 442
A. If that particular character string is available. There
is no restrictions except for a limited few for the domain
names.
Q. All right. With some very few exceptions, I can register
a name that might be quite offensive to a lot of people,
correct?
A. That, again, as long as it is available and it goes
outside of the restricted criteria, yes, sir.
Q. In fact, the only screening that Network Solutions does as
far as what's in a name is a very few words. I think you
indicated, or I think it's like down to six words that can't be
put in a domain name, right?
A. Six specific character strings, that is correct, sir.
Q. It used to be seven, but because of some foreign name
usages, it's now down to six?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. Some of us who have been around a while remember
George Carlin's words you can't say on television. Are you
familiar with that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. Are those the names or words that can't be put
on a domain name?
A. That is the FCC's guidelines that we use, which I believe
-- and, again, I can't speak on behalf of the FCC, but I
believe that's where they got it from was the Carlin statement.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HORNAK - CROSS - BALL VOL III, 443
Q. All right. And so with that exception I can register a
name childrape.com?
A. If the domain name is available, if that particular
character string is available, yes, sir.
Q. All right. And, in fact, have you looked or seen WHOIS
inquiry pages that in fact reflect the names like childporn.com
have been registered?
A. I believe you showed me during the break, yes, sir.
Q. All right. And Network Solutions doesn't take on any kind
of responsibility to go see what kind of content someone might
have on a web site, do you?
A. No, sir. We don't even know if they have a web site or
not.
Q. All right. One of the names that you -- Well, one of the
names that was on one of the exhibits was a name called
pussies4 -- and I think it was a number -- u.com. Do you
recall that, sir?
A. Yes. I believe it's Government's Exhibit NS-7.
Q. NS-7? Okay. So that was a name that was permissible to
register; is that right?
A. Again, it didn't meet the six named categories. That
particular character string, there is no limitation on that,
sir.
Q. All right. Now, let's suppose I've registered a name on
the internet, landslide.com. I own that domain name, and next
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HORNAK - CROSS - BALL VOL III, 444
week I want to change something about my registration. Can I
do that?
A. Yes, you can, or one of your agents, which is the
technical or administrative contacts, can on your behalf.
Q. All right. And can I do that online, register my computer
without talking verbally to anyone at Network Solutions?
A. The process that is currently in place for these specific
domain names would be an electronic mail template, which would
look like the initial registration template, but you are making
a modification to the domain name.
Q. All right. And if I make those sorts of changes and I'm
authorized to do so, how quickly does it change on the database
available on the internet?
A. If somebody went to do a wHOIS inquiry, usually the
database is updated about 24 to 48 hours.
Q. All right. Relatively quickly, then, sir?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. And, again, if I'm the domain name owner, I
control what's put on that registration information.
A. Again -
Q. Consistent with the template organization, correct?
A. As the registrant that contracted for services, that is
correct.
Q. All right.
MR. BALL: Thank you, sir.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HORNAK - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL III, 445
THE COURT: Mr. Heiskell.
MR. HEISKELL: Yes, Your Honor. Thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. HEISKELLe
Q. Mr. Hornak, you and I talked during the break as well, did
we not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And Network Solutions had an agreement with the Department
of Commerce, the United States Department of Commerce, in a
cooperative agreement, as well as with the National Science
Foundation to, in fact, have these domain name registrations
initially.
A. I believe that is correct, but I am not very familiar with
that.
Q. Okay. You're familiar, are you not, with the acronym
ICANN?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And can you tell the jury what that stands for?
A. I believe it stands for the International Conference of
Assigned Names and Numbers.
Q. And that was created only within the past couple of years;
is that correct?
A. Again, I believe so.
Q. And you've been with the company for at least two years
yourself?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HORNAK - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL III, 446
A. It will be two years this coming February, sir.
Q. And you're also familiar with what they called the shared
registration system?
A. That is correct, sir.
Q. And can you tell the jury what the shared registration
system is?
MR. EDDINS: Your Honor, we would object to this line
as going beyond the scope of direct.
THE COURT: It would seem so.
MR. HEISKELL: Your Honor, this gets back to the
registration of the dot com and dot net and dot org that was
broached in the direct examination.
THE COURT: Get to it quickly.
MR. HEISKELL: All right.
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. And that deals with the registration domain names being
shared by different companies; is that correct?
A. That, again, to the best of my knowledge, there is one
registry, the main database, where all the other registrars,
there's more than one, which Network Solutions is a registrar
as well. But the best analogy is there's one big book and many
different people can write into it. And then these customers
come to these different people that can write into the book,
but there can only be one specific domain name in that specific
character string within the book, which is the main database,
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HORNAK - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL III, 447
the registry.
Q. And Network Solutions, Inc., your employer, in fact you
are a multi-billion dollar company; is that correct?
A. Again, I haven't looked at the current fact sheet, but as
far as I know, yes.
Q. Around $17 billion. Does that sound about right?
A. Again, from the sheet that you showed me earlier, that's
what I saw.
MR. HEISKELL: Could you pull up, please, NS -- I'm
sorry. One, NS-1, please. Would you highlight the first --
the top paragraph, please.
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. Can you read that top paragraph from there, Mr. Hornak?
A. Yes.
Q. Or if you don't have it in front of you. Would you agree
with me that that, in essence, is a disclaimer?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Part of that? And what do you mean by a disclaimer?
A. That is basically what -- and this is an internal WHOIS
document. This is not something that would be shown on the
web. There would probably be a different one. This is what we
use internally, and basically this is just used for
informational purposes.
Q. And basically it also states, I believe, beginning with
the second full sentence, by submitting this query, you'll
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HORNAK - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL III, 448
agree to use it for lawful purposes, basically; is that
correct?
A. As far as I know, yes, sir.
MR. HEISKELL: Can you pull up SN-A-1. I'm sorry.
SN-A-2.8, excuse me. And would you go to the first full
paragraph, please.
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. Can you read that, Mr. Hornak? I'll read it briefly:
"Any services provided to the subscriber may only be used for
lawful purposes." That first sentence, do you see that?
A. Yes, sir.
That's a disclaimer, too, isn't it?
A. I don't know. As far as I can tell. It depends on your
definition of "disclaimer."
Q. Well, that similar language that you see on that document
is similar to the language you guys utilize at Network
Solutions.
A. Yes, sir.
MR. HEISKELL: Thank you.
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. I've showed you during the break some of the data from
Network Solutions on the net for registration names. You saw
that, do you remember?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. HEISKELL: Your Honor, may I approach the board
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HORNAK - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL III, 449
for a second?
THE COURT: You may.
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. If you need to I can refresh your memory, but, again, do
you recall that even the name Children Forced To Porn is
available as a domain name?
A. If I remember the documentation.
Q. You can go through it.
(Hands documentation to witness.)
A. That particular string of characters has not been
registered.
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. But is it available for registration?
A. If it hasn't been registered, then it is available for
registration.
Q. And Network Solutions would accept that as a registration.
A. That particular character string, correct.
Q. And how much would Network Solutions, in money, get from
this registration?
A. Each domain name registration is a $35 annual.
Q. You see another name, Children In Porn?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is that available for registration?
A. That particular character string has not been registered.
Q. But it is available.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HORNAK - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL III, 450
A. Because it's not registered, it is available.
Q. And for someone to do that, they would pay $35 to Network
Solutions.
A. On an annual basis, correct, sir.
Q. You do have in front of you names such as Lolita World and
other similar -- or Just Grow Up and things of that nature. Do
you see those string of names?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And those, in fact, have been registered, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And so even Lolita World -- And, by the way, is the domain
name holder or the administrator, where is that person located?
A. The registrant or the administrative contact?
Q. I'm sorry?
A. Well, Oliver Psychman (phonetics) is out of Germany.
Q. Oliver Psychman is out of Germany?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In any event, that person had to pay $35 through Network
Solutions?
A. No, sir.
Q. How much did y'all get?
MR. EDDINS: Your Honor, the government would object
to this line of questioning about documents that have not been
admitted into evidence.
MR. HEISKELL: Well, let me move on, Your Honor.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HORNAK - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL III, 451
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. HEISKELL: Could you put back NS-1, please. Go
to the technical and administrative contact. In the middle,
yes.
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. Why is the technical contact a key person, if you will, or
key position for y'all to know?
A. Well, the technical contact is one of two. That contact,
as well as the administrative contact, have the ability to make
the modifications to the domain name.
Q. And that's a key person, would you agree, not agree, as
well as the administrative contact?
A. Again, they are agents of the registrant that are
authorized to make modifications to the domain name.
Q. And the technical contact, would you agree, would be the
person to help set up and maintain the server.
A. Not necessarily, no.
Q. Well, wouldn't they make the technical changes and updates
and the like on the servers?
A. Again, they don't have to be the ones associated with the
servers. It's whoever the information is provided. If the
technical contact puts themselves and they are associated with
servers, then they can make the modifications. But it doesn't
necessarily have to be the technical contact that is associated
with the servers. It can be any technical contact.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HORNAK - REDIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 452
Q. Okay. But, nevertheless, you have a technical contact
e-mail address in this document, Government NS-1, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. NetadminClandslide.com?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you ever come to know that person to be a Tom Hughes?
A. Could you repeat the question?
Q. Have you ever heard the name Thomas Hughes?
A. No, sir.
MR. HEISKELL: That's all I have.
THE COURT: Is there redirect?
MR. EDDINS: Just a couple of questions if I may,
Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. In relation to the disclaimer that counsel was asking you
about that's a part of this registration, does Network
Solutions have the ability to withdraw domain names if Network
Solutions finds out that the domain name is being used for
illegal purposes, such as distribution of child pornography?
A. As far as I know -- I don't know. But as far as I know,
the use of the domain name, until it is brought to our
attention via a court order or other such, we don't know what
it's used for. And we would have to be ordered whether to
delete or
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 453
re-register the domain name.
MR. EDDINS: I'll pass the witness.
THE COURT: You may step down, sir. Unless there's
objection, Mr. Hornak is free to go.
(No response.)
THE COURT: All right. You're free to go as well.
THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Please call your next witness.
MR. EDDINS: Call Dane Ritcheson, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You've previously been sworn?
MR. RITCHESON: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Please recall you're still under oath.
You may be seated, sir.
MR. EDDINS: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
DANE RITCHESON,
having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. Would you state your name, please, sir, and where you
live.
A. Dane Ritcheson. I live at 103 Aquilla, Lakeside Drive,
Lakeside, Texas.
Q. Mr. Ritcheson, how are you employed and in what capacity?
A. I'm employed by the United States Postal Inspection
Service. I do computer forensics for that organization.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 454
Q. All right, sir. And how long have you been employed in
that capacity by the Postal Inspection Service?
A. For five years.
Q. All right. And what type of duties do you perform in that
capacity for the Postal Inspection Service?
A. Protect the original integrity of the evidentiary matter
that we seize, such as when we seize a computer. I back it up
with a forensic-type backup using forensics utilities or
programs. We save the original computer, set it aside, and I
perform an analysis on the backup of the original computer.
Q. Would you tell the jury what your educational background
consists of, Mr. Ritcheson.
A. Yes, sir. I have an associate's degree in computer
information systems back in 1989. I have a bachelor degree
from Dallas Baptist University in management information
systems with a 4.0 GPA.
Q. All right, sir. And is that training in the analysis of
computer information?
A. Oh, no, sir. I've attended our federal law enforcement
training center in Glynco, Georgia, on computer search and
seizure and recovery of such evidentiary matters. That was a
two-week course. I also attended a course, a one-week course,
in national white collar crimes prevention and local area
network takedowns and how to shut those systems down and
recover evidentiary matters in those type instances.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 455
I've also received basic Unix investigations for -- Basic
Unix for investigators, Sun Solaras Operating System at the
FBI, hosted by the FBI at their Quantico training center.
I also had a course in advanced computer forensics hosted
in -- co-hosted with the FBI as well as our United States
Postal Inspection Service.
Q. All right, sir. And are Unix and Sun computer systems
relatively complex computers operations?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you belong to any organizations of individuals that
also are engaged in the same kind of professional activity?
A. Yes, sir. I am currently a member of the High Technology
Investigation Computer Crimes Association. We have a chapter
in North Texas I'm an active participant in. I am also an
active participant in the North Texas Computer Forensics Group.
And also I've had dealings with the Regional Crime Lab that the
DOJ has hosted over in the Dallas area.
Q. And were you assigned by the Postal Inspection Service to
work as a forensic computer analyst on this particular case?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right, sir. Mr. Ritcheson --
MR. EDDINS: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. Mr. Ritcheson, I've placed in front of you what's been
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 456
admitted into evidence by the Court as Government's Exhibit
TR-A; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Are you familiar with TR-A, the Micron desktop, IBM hard
drive computer?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. When you received it, was that a part of the hard
drive over there to your left?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. And I'll ask whether or not you followed steps to
protect the integrity of the information contained on that
computer?
A. I did that, yes.
Q. And did you do an analysis and a retrieval of information
on that particular computer?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. You have in front of you what's been marked for
identification purposes as Government's Exhibits TR-A-10,
through TR-A-80; is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. And this was the desktop computer seized at the
defendants' residence.
A. That's correct.
Q. When you did your analysis, did you find this computer to
be in operating order?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - VOIR DIRE - BALL VOL III, 457
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And were you able to obtain documents, information, and
images, pictures, off of this computer?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, referring to Government's Exhibit TR-A-80, are those
some of the computer images that you took off of that hard
drive?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And do they appear to be meet the legal definition of
child pornography?
A. That is correct.
MR. EDDINS: Offer Government's Exhibits TR-A-10
through 80, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Your Honor, may I take the witness on voir
dire briefly for purposes of that and possibly make an
objection?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MR. BALL:
Q. Mr. Ritcheson, are those particular images -- TR-A-10
through TR-A-80 -- that consists of images, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Those were obtained from which computer, sir?
A. The Micron desktop computer.
Q. All right. And they were actually on the hard drive?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - VOIR DIRE - BALL VOL III, 458
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. Were they all in the same location?
A. The majority of them were, and they were in the
C:\Windows\Temp folder, which is not to be confused with the
temporary internet files folder.
Q. All right. And what does the temp folder, Windows temp
folder, signify?
MR. EDDINS: Your Honor, we submit this is
cross-examination and not voir dire.
THE COURT: Well, if you're trying to test the
exhibits, his knowledge of the exhibits, you need to get right
to that.
MR. BALL: All right.
BY MR. BALL:
Q. It was in that file that you've indicated on the hard
drive; is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. Did you access that by simply turning on the computer and
going to that file, or did you use any kind of tool to locate?
A. No, sir. We used a forensics tool to locate this.
Q. Which is called what, sir?
A. It was a program called N-case (phonetics).
Q. N-case?
A. Yes, sir. Can I also add something? I told you the
majority of the images were in C:\Windows\Temp folder.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - VOIR DIRE - HEISKELL VOL III, 459
Q. Yes, sir.
A. TR-A-79 was located in the D drive or partition, Pussies
folder, subfolder "Real," known as guitar09.jpg. And TR-A-80
was located in the F Drive, or F partition, on the same
computer in a folder named "New Folder," and that file name is
"Sabban," S-A-B-B-A-N, 66a.jpg.
MR. BALL: Your Honor, we would object to the
admission of TR-A-10 through 80 for the reasons previously set
out in the pretrial motion to suppress, and that they're
outside the scope of any warrants.
THE COURT: You're going to have to help me with
memory on the motion to suppress. What, in most general
language possible, what would that relate to?
MR. BALL: Well, Judge, a number of things, beginning
with insufficient probable cause for the authorization of the
warrant, and the affidavit being insufficient to support it.
In addition, the authorization of the warrant to search through
the hard drive.
THE COURT: Okay. I was afraid you were referring to
some other point within your motion, not those points.
MR. HEISKELL: May I briefly on voir dire, Your
Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MR. HEISKELL:
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - VOIR DIRE - HEISKELL VOL III, 460
Q. Mr. Ritcheson, the recovery tool that you indicated you
used, when was that accomplished?
A. Oh, goodness. That had to be accomplished early on. I
would say during December, November/December of '99.
Q. Of '99? A year ago.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And when that is recovered, what is it placed on? What
appears? Can you explain what it appears on, if you will. How
are you able to see the images that you recover? Do you see
them on the computer screen? Do you see them on printed paper?
Explain how they appear.
A. Oh, yes, sir. Our particular or specific forensics
utility allows you to look at the hard drive in a protected
environment. Now, this is a copy of a hard drive, an image
backup; and from there you're able to display each of the
images that's on that hard drive. And that's what is built
into this forensic utility.
As an additional method or verification or authentication,
because I did not solely rely upon the N-case product itself, I
copied that file out into a folder on my forensics computer as
a copy of it. I ran a special program that will give me a hash
value, to verify the authenticity and integrity of that file,
and compared it with the hash value, or that particular value,
within the program itself using a different program. And they
were one and the same.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 461
Q. But, nevertheless, you used a copy of the hard drive in
order to institute those proceedings that you just explained;
is that correct?
A. I'm sorry. I made a copy of the hard drive?
Q. Of the hard drive. You said you started with a copy of
the hard drive and then used the other tools that you
described; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
MR. HEISKELL: Your Honor, we would ask the Court to
consider the additional objection under Rule 1002 of the
Federal Rules of Evidence regarding duplicates of originals and
copies.
THE WITNESS: Oh, can I add something to that?
THE COURT: You don't need to.
Overruled. They are all admitted.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. To follow up the question, the voir dire question,
Mr. Ritcheson, why do you use a backup to develop the pictures
on the hard drive?
A. Because we do not want to perform an analysis on the
original hard drive. We try to stay away from that as much as
possible.
Q. So are the pictures contained in Government's Exhibit
TR-A-10 through 80, do those pictures still reside on the hard
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 462
drive which is in front of you, Government's Exhibit TR-A?
A. Exactly.
MR. EDDINS: Your Honor, the government requests
permission to publish TR-A-10 through 80 at this time.
THE COURT: Granted.
MR. EDDINS: Just five seconds. TR-A-10, TR-A-11,
TR-A-12, TR-A-13, TR-A-14, TR-A-15, TR-A-16, TR-A-17, TR-A-18,
TR-A-19.
THE COURT: Since you know they're all going to be
TR-A, just say the number and save our court reporter some key
strokes.
MR. EDDINS: Yes, sir. Twenty, 21, 22, 23.
TR-A-23.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. Mr. Ritcheson, do you have TR-A-23 in front of you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Would you hold TR-A-23 up, just briefly.
A. (Witness complies.)
Q. All right.
MR. EDDINS: TR-A-24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32,
33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39.
Your Honor, may I approach with counsel?
THE COURT: Yes. Do you need a record?
MR. EDDINS: No, sir.
(Off-record discussion with attorneys.)
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 463
MR. EDDINS: Forty, 41.
THE COURT: For sake of brevity, let me ask this
question of the witness, Mr. Ritcheson. We're now up to what
number?
MR. EDDINS: Forty-two, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Are there any images from 43 to 80 that
do not depict children or persons who would appear to be minors
involved in some sort of sexual activity?
THE WITNESS: All the way through to TR-A-80, you are
correct.
THE COURT: I think we've seen a representative
sampling, and unless the government insists I think we can move
forward on that testimony. It's admitted. It can be reviewed
if necessary, and now we're just publishing. So unless you
object I'll ask you to go forward.
MR. EDDINS: All right, sir.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. Mr. Ritcheson, you have in front of you what's also been
marked for identification purposes as Government's Exhibit
TR-A-81 through TR-A-86; is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Would you identify what that is.
A. TR-A-81 is a collection of the Paint Shop Pro thumbnail
browser of thumbnails. It's related to some of the business
work that the defendants were utilizing on the computer. We
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 464
have little thumbnail or banner graphics that consist of AVS,
or referred to AVS.
Q. What is Paint Shop Pro, Mr. Ritcheson?
A. Paint Shop Pro is a graphics viewer. It can be used for
graphics. You take a graphics image and you can view it,
resize it. Also, you can organize your numerous graphics by
taking advantage of the thumbnail browser. So, therefore, you
can scan a lot of graphics in one folder, for instance, on a
computer and just view them and page through the views. If you
have like 70 graphic images, you can view it within Paint Shop
Pro as thumbnails.
Q. Is that a program that existed on the defendants' computer
TR-A-A (sic)?
A. That is correct.
Q. All right, sir.
MR. EDDINS: We move to admit TR-A-81 through
TR-A-86.
MR. BALL: We have the same objection as to the
last --
THE COURT: Group of exhibits?
MR. BALL: -- group of exhibits, yes, sir.
THE COURT: Eight-one through 86, your objections are
overruled and they are admitted.
MR. EDDINS: Request permission of the Court to
publish to the jury TR-A-81 through 86 at this time.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 465
THE COURT: Granted.
MR. EDDINS: TRA-81. Now, if you'll stop right
here.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. In the context of what the jury is seeing right here,
Mr. Ritcheson, TR-A-81, would you explain how this is organized
on this page as a Paint Shop Pro organization?
A. Yes, sir. This is a printout of the thumbnails from
within Paint Shop Pro that was on the defendants' computer.
These little thumbnails that you see and incorporate the AVS
logo, for instance, this is for viewer benefit to determine
that the defendants were utilizing this for business purposes,
or in support of their business concern.
Q. And referring to Government's Exhibit TR-A-82.
BY MR. EDDINS: Would you blow that up.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. Are these graphics for the hyperlinks owned by the
defendants?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. EDDINS: TR-A-83. If you'd blow up the top
portion of that.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. What is the jury viewing in this exhibit?
A. The jury is viewing a viewing of thumbnails within Paint
Shop Pro. These thumbnails you will see again, as I continue
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 466
my testimony, as incorporated within banners within web pages.
MR. EDDINS: Now, the bottom half of that exhibit,
please.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. The next exhibit, Government's Exhibit TR-A-84, what is
TR-A-84?
A. This is a Paint Shop Pro thumbnail browser full of the
child porn images that are now compressed into a thumbnail
size. So, for instance, earlier we went through to display
each of the child pornography pictures that were resident in
C:\Windows\Temp Folder. This gives us how you can view all
these child pornography files as thumbnails, within the program
itself.
Q. And, Mr. Ritcheson, underneath those thumbnails are
identifiers, such as Ms. Moore read in the counts of this
indictment, jpg numbers. Would you explain how those numbers
relate, those identifiers or jpg numbers relate, to the
pictures that the jury is seeing here.
A. Yes, sir. Within the thumbnails those are file names,
what the prosecutor is referring to as identifiers. Those file
names are one and the same file names that we previously saw of
the TR-A-10 through 80. So, therefore, they're part of the
possession count.
MR. EDDINS: Okay. Referring to the next exhibit,
Government's Exhibit TR-A-85.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 467
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. Are these additional exhibits just as the previous
exhibits that were in the Paint Shop Pro program?
A. Yes, sir, but there's one important difference. This is a
collection. You remember we saw an exhibit concerning
Sabban66a, the middle thumbnail? Well, this is a thumbnail
browser file of that folder that Paint Shop Pro automatically
collects for you. So that's why we see this thumbnail of the
larger picture that we showed you earlier,
Q. Are there different ways that someone who was organizing
images on their computer could organize those pictures for
various purposes that they wanted to put those pictures to?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And are some of these that the jury is seeing here
examples of that?
A. Yes, sir. You will see some of these images, or the
victims within these images, on subsequent or future exhibits
that we will submit. At the same time, Paint Shop Pro and this
utilization of the thumbnails makes it for the ease of the user
to view his collection of child pornography, for instance, or
to organize his work products, such as when he's trying to
refer to the ClicZ button that will eventually be utilized in
web page graphics as a banner.
At the same time, you cannot necessarily discount Paint
Shop Pro for assisting someone in designing web pages, to a
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 468
certain and limited extent.
Q. All right, sir. Now, referring to what's been marked for
identification purposes as Government's Exhibit TR-A-1 through
TR-A-9, Mr. Ritcheson?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are those e-mail messages that you downloaded, took off of
the defendants' home IBM hard drive computer admitted as
Government's Exhibit TR-A?
A. That is correct.
MR. EDDINS: Offer Government's Exhibit TR-A-1
through TR-A-9 at this time, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objection as the last two groups of
exhibits.
THE COURT: Overruled. Admitted.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. Mr. Ritcheson, referring to the first exhibit, TR-A-1,
which consists of two pages, will you explain the protocol for
reading e-mail messages and how you identify who the sender and
who the receiver is?
A. Yes, sir. Let's see if we can blow up just the top
portion of it.
THE COURT: Mr. Eddins, that's TR-A-8 and 9, correct?
MR. EDDINS: I'm sorry, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Those were TR-A-8 and 9 that we just
admitted?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 469
MR. EDDINS: Yes, sir. TR-A-1 through 9, yes, sir.
A. Okay. This is the more boring aspect of e-mails, but this
header information is important. It gives us an idea of where
it's routed, you know, coming from this type of net ID, blah,
blah, blah, I got a unique message ID. You have a date. That
date will be coming from the computer, I believe, on that one.
You also have time and stamp dates when they go through these
switches or the routers.
Okay. If we can go into the message of the body, we see
two -
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. Excuse me. But in this case the date of the message is 1
September '99?
A. That is correct.
Q. And it's from who to who?
A. It's from Miranda, which is also the indicted webmaster
Michael Yamin. And its cc is sites@landslide.com as well as
money@landslide.com.
Q. And it's to houdini@landslide.com?
A. That's correct. And it's also going to an account at
landslide.com called sites, which the customer service
representative had an access to, as well as
money@landslide.com, which is known specifically as one of the
defendants.
Q. Okay. And who is that?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 470
A. Money@landslide.com is normally associated with Janice
Reedy.
Q. Now, is this a reply to a message which is contained on
page 2 of Government's Exhibit TR-A-1?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So if we'll go to the original message, the second page,
which comes actually first chronologically, this is dated 25
August '99. It's from houdini@landslide.com to
micy@cabi.net.id and then the cc was sent to
sites@landslide.com and the subject is re, signups and money.
And it says:
"Miranda, our site service department has attempted
to contact you several times concerning your 'lack of
content' to customers over the last month or so. You have
definitely an excessive amount of chargebacks and refunds.
"This disservice will NOT be tolerated, nor will it
be allowed to go as long as it has in the past. We will
re-enable your account so you can see your money page and
watch as we debit all of these dissatisfied customers
before we release your funds. Also, to help reduce
further chargebacks and refunds and to continue to use our
service you MUST have content for the customers! We will
monitor your sites and permanently ban you from using our
service if you have further incidents, or if you do not
answer the site managers e-mails concerning problems with
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 471
your site.
"You are a LARGE amount of revenue, however we must
protect our business and attempt to make sure the customer
is receiving viable content for his/her money.
"Keyz.com turns your 'net' idea into "MoneyMachine.'
So easy even YOU can do it at keyz.com."
And then turning back to the first page that Miranda
sent in reply to Houdini and money@landslide:
"I'm fully understood about our situation here. I'm
also so sorry about the lack of content in my site.
However, with the kind of content that site had, me and my
provider have a lot lot lot of complaints, too. You know,
that's suppose to be illegal, but it brings us a lot of
money, too.
"Most of time, our servers connections has to be
disconnected or my provider will lose their business.
Sometime it even need much more time to re-run the server,
i.e., different ips, et cetera. Please understand our
situation, too.
"Haven't I told you about the Interpol coming here?
Not mentioning how many times the FBI have gone to our
provider office.
"Anyway, I thank you for still trusting me. I'll
find better way to host the content. By the way, do you
have a good server I can use to host some of the content?
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RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 472
Best, Miranda."
MR. EDDINS: That's at the top of the second page,
please. All the way at the top.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. Referring to Government's Exhibit TR-A-2, it's a two-page
document. Is that correct, Mr. Ritcheson?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And this is -- What is the -- Who sent the first message
and who sent the second one?
A. Okay. I believe this is just a single message -- Well,
yes. Who sent the original message was Houdini. That's at the
bottom of the first page, and he sent it to
tso2me@earthlink.net. He also cc'd avs@mail.landslide.com,
which is part of the customer support services at Landslide.
Q. All right, sir. This message from Houdini to the people
that you have indicated is dated December 16, 1998.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. It says:
"I really don't know what your problem is. Either
you wish to keep your account, get a refund, or have it
transferred to another site, your choice, for the duration
of your membership. How can a service that offers any
three above be considered as a 'ripoff'? Let me know
which of the above you wish, and I will personally see it
done. Otherwise, please stop sending threatening e-mails.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 473
Do you think that kind of tactic is really going to get
you a polite courteous, quick reply? Tom Reedy. PS:
Please include your user name so I can accommodate your=20
request."
And then the response to houdiniClandslide.com:
"First of all, I would like to thank you for
responding to my outrages and threatening e-mail. I don't
like doing that to a company I plan to do business with,
but after a total eight previous e-mails of inquirie I
deemed it necessary. I would in fact like to keep my
account. My user name should be tso5, as I resubmitted my
information. I believe the site in question is xxxteen.
The sign in page header read
littlegirlpussybeingeatenbyhungryman. If you could get
this straightened out, I would be very greatful. I would
also like more info on how my service can benefit from
your service, or vice versa. I really do police the net.
Like I said before, it's my job. Looking forward to your
reply."
And then referring to Government's Exhibit TR-A-3,
what's the relationship between TR-A-2 and TR-A -- I'm sorry.
I skipped a page.
All right, turning to TR-A-3. Who is this e-mail from and
to?
A. Okay. On TR-A-3, on the forwarded message at the bottom,
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RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 474
it's going to be from David at sites@landslide.com. It's going
to be David Cruz. He sent it to sites@landslide.com and has a
subject of child porn. He also sent this e-mail from his
account at sites@mail.landslide.com to houdini@landslide.com.
Houdini is one of the defendants.
Q. Okay. And I believe you're referring to the top of the
e-mail message?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The routing that was followed?
A. That's correct.
Q. All right, sir. This was in November of 1998?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right, sir. And the subject was report child porn?
A. That is correct.
Q. Now, referring down to the body of the e-mail message that
was forwarded to Houdini by David Cruz:
"Hi. I had found this five site with IP," and
they're listed, "was selling child porn, and they rent
your server. I hope you moved that all site, cause I have
already report them to the Police internet. And for your
attention I would say thank you."
Referring to the next government's exhibit, TR-A-4,
this is from Houdini to David. Subject, re, questionable.
"New policy. If a site has preteen images, it MUST
have the disclaimer by the entry banner. 'It is ILLEGAL
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RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 475
for U.S. residents to enter this site."'
Referring to Government's Exhibit TR-A-5, from
Houdini to andy@sexswap.com:
"Here's a plug. Try ClicZ, it's free! Give your
site extra hits for very little effort. Three to two
banner swap ratio, http://clicz.com. Thanks, T."
TRA-6. E-mail message from Houdini, and who would
this be to, Mr. Ritcheson?
A. It looks like it's to list4b8d.pml, and it looks like
that's a type of distribution list.
Q. All right, sir.
A. I mean, he could hit a lot of folks with that one e-mail.
Q. All right.
A. In other words, it's known as a type of spam, or
advertising message.
Q. Just referring to the middle of this message:
"We wish to introduce a new web site using KeyZ as
its protection. It has several thousand images, and is a
must see! Http://pussies4u.com. Wow, I was blown away.
Don't be discouraged by its outward appearance."
Referring to Government's Exhibit TR-A-7, it's from
Houdini to advertise@mail.landslide.com. Houdini writes:
"Thomas, I had an idea for KeyZ sites that go down in
the middle of the customer's membership term. We could
create a good site and use it as an option for people to
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 476
finish out their membership term at that site instead of
getting a refund. Maybe you could possibly pull a bunch
of images off the program that created those 1,000 sites.
I guess you could even put it out there and take
memberships through it as well. Make it a good site so
even though it was not exactly what they signed up for it
would be worth looking at. Let me know what you think.
It was just an idea. Could you send the reply to
ads@landslide.com?"
Referring to Government's Exhibit TR-A-8. From
Houdini to ads@mail.landslide.com, September '98:
"I'm not sure, haven't counted them but well over
1,000."
"Thomas, this is a damn good site. Could you tell
approximately how many pictures in that site so that I
can use it as a selling point?"
Which came first on that document, the question or
the statement?
A. What came first was at the bottom of the document where
you see the two greater than signs. It's being forwarded from
Houdini.
Q. So it would be a question by who to who?
A. Yes. It would be from houdini@landslide to t@stuph.com,
also sites@landslide.com, as well as advertise@landslide.com
and subject, check out our new site. Priority is normal,
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RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 477
http://pussies4u.com. Want to charge for access into your
site? Use KeyZ. It's easy. It's free. http://keyz.com for
details.
Now, the little block above that where you see just one
greater than sign, that is, "Thomas. That is a damn good site.
Could you tell approximately how many pictures in that site so
that I can use it as a selling point? Thanks, Dustin." Dustin
was one of the customer service support folks at Landslide.
And, of course, the next block without the greater than
signs, and this is the last portion of the message, "I am not
sure, haven't counted them, but well over 1,000. T." And
that's from ads@landslide.com to houdini@landslide. So he is
replying. Houdini is replying to ads@mail.landslide.com.
THE COURT: You need to enunciate a little better.
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
A. Houdini is replying to ads@mail.landslide.com, which is
normally associated with one of the customer service
representatives working at landslide.com -- at the Landslide
incorporation.
Q. And the last e-mail exhibit, TR-A-9, Mr. Ritcheson, would
you describe and read the contents of that e-mail?
A. Yes. It's from self, or Houdini. That's one of the
defendants, Houdini, to sites@landslide.com. That's their
customer server support folks at Landslide,
advertise@landslide.com, another type of customer service
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 478
support. The date is the 29th of November 1998. "Found this
posted in the news group. Thought it might be of interest."
Let's see, on subject, new posting rules effective
immediately.
"Thank you for your interest and time taken to assist
us in any current and/or future investigations. Giving us
your tips is an enormous tool for investigations. Due to
time and workload constraints, we are unable to reply to
everyone with a personalized response. We hope that
following helps to answer some of your frequently asked
questions.
"We are looking for offenders that possess, trade,
distribute, and/or produce images that visually and
clearly depict a minor posing in a sexually explicit
manner, lacivious exposure, or engaging in sexual
situations with other people.
"When you come across suspect images, please do not
forward those images to us, as the transmission and/or
forwarding of child pornography images is a violation of
the U.S. law. Instead, please describe the pictures and
anything else pertaining to the identity and location of
the offender, i.e., e-mail address, internet route,
protocol address, web site URL, news group name, and
identity of 'poster' name and location of chat room.
"We only investigate based on the limits of the law
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 479
and the legal definitions of child pornography violations.
We do not investigate adult pornography, sexually written
stories about children, or nonsexual nudity poses.
"We are unable to provide you information/feedback on
any ongoing investigation. However, we keep records and
tips that lead to an investigation/arrest/seizure. We
investigate sites in other countries and actively work
with foreign law enforcement.
"We ask that you do not intentionally look for child
pornography and, in doing so, you may open yourself up to
becoming a target. Also, once you enter any web sites
containing this subject matter, you will be on a 'mailing
list' of sorts and may start receiving ads and 'spams."'
On the second page:
"If you see suspect child pornography within a 'pay
site, giving us your access and password and 'directions'
to go to that image will help us greatly. We, as well as
other law enforcement agencies, check chat rooms. We do
not shut down sites on the internet. Your internet
service provider does.
"Thank you again for your interest in coming forward
and identifying these suspected perpetrators."
Signed the staff of the U.S. Customs CyberSmuggling
Center.
Q. Now, referring back to the first page, the top half of
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RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL TII, 480
this first page, please.
Mr. Ritcheson, you will be testifying -- called upon to
testify in relation to your forensic examination of five
computers in this case; is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. This is the first of those.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In your examination of all of the five computers that you
examined that were found at Landslide on Seaman Street and the
home of the defendants, did you find any evidence of any
reports to Customs at this address or any other law enforcement
agency of child pornography sites?
A. No, sir, I did not. I did a specific search throughout
all the hard drives for the word police, Interpol, Customs,
FBI. I did not find anything of any reporting to these
entities concerning child pornography complaints.
Q. Now, Mr. Ritcheson, you also have in front of you what's
been admitted into evidence as Government's Exhibit TR-B, the
Sharp notebook computer found at the defendants' residence.
A. That is correct.
Q. And did you do a forensic computer analysis of the
contents of that computer?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You have in front of you what's been marked for
identification purposes --
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 481
THE COURT: Before you go on to another one, maybe we
need to take a lunch break. Will this be unduly interrupting
your direct?
MR. EDDINS: This would be fine, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Let's return here at 1:30. It's a little
longer than yesterday, but we've got some things to do back
there. So that should give you time to catch your breath and
have a nice lunch. See you at 1:30.
(Court in recess, 12:09 p.m. until 1:41 p.m.)
THE COURT: Go ahead, sir.
MR. EDDINS: Thank you, Your Honor.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. Mr. Ritcheson, in relation to the Paint Shop Pro file and
the images and advertising elements that were in there, had any
of those been overwritten by the defendants?
A. No, sir.
Q. Had any of those been deleted from those files?
A. No, sir. Those exhibits that you viewed today, ladies and
gentlemen, they were in their entirety. I did not have to go
through any type of recovery routines, or anything special like
that, to obtain them.
Q. Now, referring to what has been admitted by the Court,
Government's Exhibit TR-B, the Sharp notebook computer
recovered from the defendants' residence, did you do a forensic
computer analysis of the contents of that computer?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 482
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you have in front of you what's been marked for
identification purposes as Government's Exhibit TR-B-1, 2, and
3; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And were these images of children that you recovered from
the home Sharp notebook computer?
A. That is correct.
MR. EDDINS: Offer Government's Exhibit TR-B-1, 2,
and 3, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objection as the last group of
images.
THE COURT: Overruled. Admitted.
MR. EDDINS: May we publish those to the jury, Your
Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
MR. EDDINS: TR-B-1, TR-B-2, and TR-B-3.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. On the Sharp notebook computer, did you also recover
banners or advertisements?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you have in front of you what's been marked TR-B-4
through TR-B-8; is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. And what are those?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 483
A. These are banner graphics that were located on the Sharp
notebook computer in the temporary internet folders.
Q. And what is "temporary internet folder"?
A. When you view the internet and you look at some web pages,
it saves a lot of that content, user unawares, to the temporary
internet folder as a special area. And it puts little pieces
of that web page in there. Like say, for instance, looking at
one of these exhibits on the banners, which is a banner graphic
all by itself, the user would have seen that banner graphic
incorporated within a web page. So this little piece of that
pie is saved within the temporary internet files.
Q. Now, with reference to the computer images that the jury
just saw that resided on that computer and these banners, was
any attempt made to delete or overwrite those images?
A. No, sir. As a matter of fact, on the child pornography
images, these were not located in any temporary internet files.
I need to be clear on that distinction.
Q. What does that mean, Mr. Ritcheson?
A. That means there had to be -- The defendants had to take
an overt action to store it within these particular folders on
that computer.
MR. EDDINS: Offer TR-B-4 through TR-B-8, Your Honor.
THE COURT: TR-B-4 through 8 are admitted.
MR. BALL: Judge, same objection as to the last group
of exhibits.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 484
THE COURT: Overruled. They're admitted.
MR. EDDINS: May we publish TR-B-4 through 8 to the
jury, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
MR. EDDINS: TR-B-4, TR-B-5, TR-B-6, TR-B-7, and
TR-B-8.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. Mr. Ritcheson, you have also what's been marked for
identification purposes as Government's Exhibit TR-B-9; is that
correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Would you identify what TR-B-9 is.
A. TR-B-9 is an exhibit that was recovered from the
defendants' Sharp notebook computer from within the temporary
internet files of the adult -- AVS adult classifieds.
Q. All right. And how many pages does that consist of?
A. Thirty printed pages,
MR. EDDINS: Offer Government's Exhibit TR-B-9, Your
Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the last exhibit,
THE COURT: Overruled. Admitted.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. In this 30 pages of adult classifieds, the jury has heard
testimony about the contents of those advertisements. Is this
30 pages of adult classifieds what the jury has heard about
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 485
before?
A. Yes, sir. In fact, it's the same.
Q. Now, referring to Government's Exhibit --
MR. EDDINS: Click to page 2, 4 -- 3.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. Did you do a comparison, Mr. Ritcheson, of the contents of
the classifieds on the computer, the Sharp computer, found at
the defendants' home and the classifieds stored at the business
address?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Did you find them to be the same?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right, sir. I believe you also have one classified
that was identified that shows that similarity by number; is
that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. And could you identify which one that is.
A. Yes, sir. It's going to be referenced by number 118.
Q. I'm sorry. Just a second. I'm getting ahead of myself.
A. Okay.
Q. All right. Mr. Ritcheson, did you also participate in --
Did you also participate in the search of the defendants'
business location on Seaman Street?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And were computers and computer records seized by you and
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 486
under your direction?
A. That's correct.
Q. And you -- In the room that was occupied by Janice Reedy,
did you seize a -- computer information in there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You have what has been identified as JR-A there with you,
I believe?
A. It's going to be in another book.
Q. Mr. Ritcheson, did you download the information on a
computer found in the room occupied by Janice Reedy?
A. Yes, sir, at the business.
Q. Okay. And how did you accomplish that task?
A. Well, after we did a backup of the desktop from the
bookkeeper's office where Janice Reedy was known to be working
at, I was able to take that backup and basically copy the
QuickBook's profile, which consists or contains all the
bookkeeping records for the business. And I verified and
authenticated that file using a special routine so that there
were no modifications, I noted no modifications, to that file
after that process had occurred. And this is, in fact, the
exhibit and it's what we're talking about.
Q. All right. And is that marked Government's Exhibit
JR-A-20?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you view the government's exhibit, what consists of
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - VOIR DIRE - HEISKELL VOL III, 487
Government's Exhibit JR-A-20, after it was downloaded off the
computer there in Janice Reedy's office?
A. Did I view it?
Q. Yes. Did you view it and confirm that it was an accurate
reproduction of the records?
A. That is correct.
MR. EDDINS: Offer Government's Exhibit JR-A-20, Your
Honor.
MR. HEISKELL: Just very briefly, Your Honor, if I
may, on voir dire?
THE COURT: All right.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. Inspector Ritcheson, were you there when Janice Reedy was
in that office?
A. No, sir.
Q. So do you know if that's Janice Reedy's office?
A. I was informed that it was Janice Reedy's office, or the
bookkeeper's office.
Q. By someone else?
A. Yes, sir, by another inspector.
Q. And did you see -- but you never saw Janice Reedy there;
is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Do you know where in that building the office was located,
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 488
as far as the configuration of the office, or anything of that
nature?
A. Yes, sir. Once you make entry from the front entrance and
you hang a left in the hallway, there is a breakroom on the
immediate left. If you go down, I believe, one more office
that is what we noted as Room M, because we do our own labeling
scheme. And I believe that's the office.
Q. It was labeled M?
A. That's our internal labeling scheme when we recover
evidentiary matter.
Q. And the computer disk drive that's been offered right now
consists of downloads of e-mail matters; is that correct?
A. No, sir. This particular one only is a copy of the
QuickBooks Pro, or the bookkeeping information, for the
business records.
MR. HEISKELL: Just a moment, Your Honor.
(Defense counsel and government counsel confer.)
MR. HEISKELL: Your Honor, we would object as
previously enumerated regarding the search warrant issue, and
that's the only objection at this time.
THE COURT: All right. The objection is overruled.
JR-A-20 is admitted.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. Mr. Ritcheson, were the QuickBook records, JR-A-20, turned
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 489
over to a certified public accountant for business record audit
purposes?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that would be Rex Rector; is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. You also have in front of you what's been marked for
identification purposes Government's Exhibit JR-A-1 through 19.
And I'll ask if those are exact copies of e-mails downloaded
from the same computer?
A. I'll just need another book.
MR. EDDINS: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
MR. EDDINS: They're in this book, I believe.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. I'm referring to Government's Exhibit JR-A-1 through 19.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And are Government's Exhibit JR-A-1 through 19 all e-mails
relative to Janice Reedy?
A. That is correct.
MR. EDDINS: Offer Government's Exhibit JR-A-1
through 19, Your Honor.
MR. HEISKELL: Same objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled, and it's admitted.
MR. EDDINS: May we publish these exhibits to the
jury, Your Honor?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 490
THE COURT: You may.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. Referring to Government's Exhibit JR-A-1 and JR-A-2, I
believe these two documents actually go together; is that
correct, Mr. Ritcheson?
A. I believe that's correct, yes, sir.
Q. Okay. Would you state how these should be read, who
they're from and to and the dates?
A. Okay. We need to start off with JR-A-2 first.
Q. Okay. This is a message from sites@landslide.com to
money@landslide.com dated 1 June '99, and the --
MR. HEISKELL: Excuse me. What number is this?
MR. EDDINS: JR-A-2.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. It says:
"I would like to remind you that I have not received
my check for April, something about $13,000. I also have
not received any answer to the message I sent you more
than a week ago. I'm bringing the site back online but I
begin to develop certain doubts regarding whether or not
I'm going to get paid. Unless I hear from you soon I will
have no other choice but to sign up with another service
and consider taking a legal action in order to collect the
payment that is due to me. Makism Kakhovski."
And the subject -- and then the message is sent by
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 491
David at sites@landslide.com relative to this message that's
just been read. It says, "Your site has been down for a
while. Are you still in business?" Site name,
kmfpfhomepage:http//www.kiddyporn.org. Thanks, David, site
manager at sites@landslide.com.
Referring back to the first page on JR-A-1, if I'm reading
this correct, Mr. Ritcheson. You correct me if I'm wrong.
A. Yes. We need to -- The first portion of the e-mail
message will always be where the greater than sign is. So
you'll read that first, and then you move up toward the top of
the page.
Q. Okay. Would you read it the correct way for the jury?
A. Yes, sir.
On JR-A-l, I'm going to move down to the greater than
signs. It starts off with the dear sir:
"You will receive the check due to you minus the
chargebacks associated with your site that have been
received to date. Also, the renewal fees of approximately
$1600 will be held out due to the fact that the site has
not been working properly since May of 1999. Any renewals
that have been processed will result in the form of a
chargeback. Due to leading customers to your site under
false pretenses, we do expect to receive more of these
chargebacks."
Q. Now, at this point, which site is Janice Lee -- go to the
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 492
end of this message.
A. Yes, on the site. . .
Q. On the next page. This message that you're reading is
signed, "Thanks, Janice Lee, money@landslide.com."
A. Yes.
Q. Which site is Janice Lee referring to when she says any
renewals that haven't been processed will result in the form of
a chargeback?
A. She's going to be referring to www.kiddyporn.org is the
subject. That's from the JR-A-2.
MR. HEISKELL: Judge, excuse me. We object to that
on conjecture and speculation unless it's shown in A-1 that it
in fact does relate to that particular web site in A-2.
THE COURT: Can you meet that objection?
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. Mr. Ritcheson?
A. Well, it's the way the e-mails flow, sir.
MR. HEISKELL: I'm sorry?
A. It's the way the e-mails flow and the correspondence.
Sometimes you just get a portion of an e-mail, and then again
you'll see somebody responding to it in a separate e-mail. But
it's not all there in its entirety or contextual. It's not in
there in its entirety, that we would prefer to see, of course.
MR. HEISKELL: Judge, may I take him on voir dire on
that issue?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 493
THE COURT: You may.
MR. EDDINS: Well, may I finish the line of
questioning to establish --
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. Referring to Government's Exhibit JR-2, up at the top of
the page the forwarded message down in the middle of the page,
the forwarded message that is indicated as having been
forwarded by David, sites@landslide.com, is from Makism
Kakhovski replying to superslammer2@usa.net (sic). Is that the
same -- appear to be the same superslammer2@usa.net that the
Janice Reedy reply is to on page 1 of JR-A-1?
A. That is correct.
MR. HEISKELL: May I, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Well, I believe he's answered your
question, has he not?
MR. HEISKELL: I don't believe so, Your Honor, from
the standpoint of being conjecture, because we have different
dates, one being dated June 1st of 1999 and the other being
June 5th of 1999. And with the number -- Well, I guess I need
to ask him this in regard to make more clear my objection.
THE COURT: Mr. Eddins, Mr. Heiskell believes you've
not met his objection. Tell me why you believe you have.
MR. EDDINS: Well, the second JR-A-2 was sent on 1
June '99. It shows to be forwarded by David to
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money@landslide.com. That's what this document shows, JR-A-2.
Just pull up the whole document; right up here at the top.
And this is a -- and JR-A-2 contains two messages, the message
from super slammer, which David, sites manager, received and
forwarded to Janice Lee, money@landslide.com, to which
Mr. Ritcheson was reading her response to.
THE COURT: I will overrule the objection. You may
proceed.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. If you'll finish reading -- I interrupted you in the
middle of reading Janice Lee's response. If you'll finish
reading that response.
A. Okay. It starts off with, "Thank you very much for your
letter."
Q No.
A. You want to go to the bottom?
Q. You were at the bottom -- I'm sorry. You were at the
bottom of JR-A-1.
A. That's correct.
Q. On the first page. Go ahead.
MR.EDDINS: No. You're beyond that. Go over to the
second page. Go to the first page of -- yes.
A. Okay. We can reread that.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. "Any renewals that have been processed will result in
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the form of a chargeback due to leading customers to your
site under false pretenses." And the site has been
identified as kiddyporn.com. "We do expect to receive
more of these chargebacks. It is the" --
MR. EDDINS: Go to the next page, please.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. -- "policy of Landslide to charge the webmasters all
charges that we process for chargebacks and refunds.
"Your site states that you have captured their IP
address and will be turning the user over to the
authorities. Landslide would appreciate you to refrain
from setting up your site on our system in this manner.
Landslide does not, nor will it condone this type of
marketing."
Going to Government's Exhibit JR-A-3.
A. Can we read the top of that e-mail message, sir?
Q. I'm sorry. We did not --
A. We did not complete that e-mail message on January 1
concerning the webmaster.
MR. EDDINS: Go to the top, the
superslammer2Cusa.net.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. "Thank you very much for your letter. I only have a" --
Now, this would constitute the response from Janice Lee's?
A. That's correct.
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RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 496
Q. All right, sir. Superslammer writes:
"Thank you very much for your letter. I only have a
couple of necessary corrections to make. First, about
so-called 'false pretenses.' Every user who had signed up
received exactly what was advertised: access to a huge
collection of erotic images, no more and no less. No
misleading advertisement ever took place, no illegal
content in any form was ever mentioned, and the disclaimer
on the enter page clearly stated that the site did not
contain any child pornography or other illegal material.
People who expected to find it inside should have read the
disclaimer more carefully. They have no legal and moral
rights to complain about their own stupidity, and I do not
accept any responsibility for their assumptions.
"Second, the site never stated that I will turn the
user over to the authorities. It stated though that it
might be done if the user is ever found trading child
pornography in news groups or on IRC. I understand it is
my civil duty and it has nothing to do with marketing.
"I understand that the site, as it was, may have been
a reason for you getting a lot of complaints as well as
chargebacks. It will undergo a major reconstruction in
order to comply with your policies before I bring it up.
Thanks."
Now, referring to Government's Exhibit JR-A-3. Would
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you explain who this e-mail is to?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And who it's from?
A. It is from landslide.com from Tom Reedy, otherwise known
as houdini@landslide. It's the defendants to
tunina@dnet.net.id. The subject is May checks. The content of
the e-mail message reads as follows:
"Please enter your name and address for the site
xxxpreteens. I do not know where to send the check.
Please also send me the information so that I can get you
paid for May. Thanks, Janice Lee, money@landslide.com."
Q. Referring to Government's Exhibit JR-A-4, this was an
e-mail sent to money@landslide.com, re-sent from Janice Lee,
money@landslide.com in May of 1999. Chaka Chandra wrote:
"Yes, I want you to wire the money for xxxpreteens,
$922.12; xxxunderage $76.88; toyoungtobefucke, new. Wire
transfer request information, Akip Anshori. Thank you,
Akip Anshori."
Government's Exhibit JR-A-5. Is a sent and re-sent
from money@landslide.com, Janice Lee, money@landslide.com:
"Dear sir, until now I have not received your wire
payment for the last sales period, May 1 through May 31,
1998. My site name: xxxpreteens, $3,283.20; xxxunderage,
$392.16; too young to be fucked, $1,145.64; total $4,820.
And wanna to change my wire transfer to my new wire bank
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RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 498
wire. Transfer request information: Akip Anshori in
Indonesia."
And then at the bottom:
"Please send me e-mail after you sent out the wire
transfer money to my account bank as you do last month.
Give me a response. Thank you, Akip Anshori."
And then the Government's Exhibit JR-A-6 is an e-mail
from Akip Anshori to Janice Lee at money@mail.landslide.com
with a cc to Tom Reedy, houdiniQlandslide.com:
"Hi, Tom & Janice: The wire transfer you sent on
5/28/98 is for the sales period that lasted April 30, '98.
The sales are xxxpreteens, animal hardcore, total sales,
$999. And I received the money as you sent 5/25/98,
$1,007.88 at Bank Bali Jakarta. The BIG PROBLEM is that
it isn't the sale period I've been asking you for. The
sales are" -- it lists the sites, the amount, sites, the
amount, sales period, sites amount -- "a total of
$6,693.43. That means you still owe me $6,693.43 and I
demand my RIGHTS. Please don't make it complicated, just
give me the money I should have received. Because as far
as I'm concerned you owe me too long. I need your answer
immediately, and I'm really hoping you keep your promise.
Thanks again, Akip Anshori."
Referring to the next Government's Exhibit --
Government's Exhibit JR-A-6 -- JR-A-7. It is an e-mail message
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RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 499
to Janice Lee, moneyClandslide.com, sent to money@landslide.com
from Chaka Chandra:
"Hi, Tom and Janice, thank you so much. I received
your wire on 8/15/98, amount $6,868.37. Thanks, Akip
Anshori."
And there is a message underneath that Janice Lee
wrote: "Yes, we sent it" -- This was in response to a previous
request. "Yes, we sent it to Citibank, Cabang Kebon Jeruk.
Thanks, Janice Lee."
And on the second page it has a listing of all of the
sites and the amounts that were figured by Janice Lee payable
to this webmaster.
A. Some of those sites, if you note, is like Too Young To Be
Fucked, xxxpreteens, Youngpreteen.
Q. All right, sir. Referring to Government's Exhibit JR-A-8,
and I won't go into all of these but in the middle -- or the
bottom of the first page of JR-A-8, is the message that Janice
Lee at moneyClandslide.com -- I'm sorry. For the jury to see
this we have to go to the second page of Government's Exhibit
JR-A-8.
MR. EDDINS: Top of the page.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. Which shows Janice Lee at moneyClandslide.com wiring
$10,244.91 to Michael Yamin, webmaster. And then going back to
the bottom of page l, that that attaches to, that that's a part
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RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 500
of.
MR. EDDINS: Can you do the whole half page there?
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. Janice Lee wrote Michael Yamin:
"We sent a wire today totaling $10,244.91. We will
send the rest around the 20th. 31,791.52, lolihard; and
95,428.94 nymphon. We will have to split up the next
wire, though. Our wire transfer system is set to only
transfer out $100,000 per day. Security reasons on our
side. Thanks, Janice Lee."
And then there's a listing of web sites that constitute
the total of $10,244.91. That appeared on the second page.
MR. EDDINS: But leave it on that page, please.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. And are some of these sites that are listed here sites
named in the indictment?
A. That is correct.
Q. And which are those?
A. Nympho is an account set up for Lolita World, which is
listed in the indictment. We also have Blackcat, which is also
Blackcat Photo Series. You saw some of the Web Buddy capture
and the evidence on that previously.
Q. All right, sir.
A. Those are two examples that come to my mind at this point
in time.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 501
Q. Referring to Government's Exhibit JR-A-9. This is from
Miranda to houdini@landslide.com with a carbon copy to
money@landslide.com from Miranda. It reads:
"Hi, guys. The last one week I've been busy with the
Interpol here. Someone had reported me for the child porn
sites, but everything, it's okay now. At least for a
while. wheww.
"For some more weeks, I have to clean up those sites.
But still I have planned for another bigger one!! So if
there's some error/mistakes on those sites, please do
understand. Please tell our customer that we have a bit
difficulties here.
"By the way, when you could send the money this
month? Thanks a lot, best, Miranda."
Referring to Government's Exhibit JR-A-10. It's an
e-mail message to money@landslide.com with a carbon copy
to houdini@landslide.com from Miranda:
"I forgot to tell you I've updated all my name in
accounts to be 'Miranda.' But when you do the transfer,
please STILL use Michael Yamin. Thanks a lot."
A. Can I add something?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Yes. As you notice, you see a breakout on the payments in
the e-mails to a specific webmaster. That webmaster manages a
suite of web sites that KeyZ allows access to. That's where
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RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 502
these payments are done. They're just being compiled. So when
you refer to Michael Yamin, also known as Miranda, you also
know -- you need to know that Michael Yamin or Miranda is
responsible for the Blackcat Lolita Photo Series, that web
site. He's also responsible for Lolita Hardcore, Lolita World.
So this is indicative, to assist you in making a little bit
more sense about these e-mails on how Miranda or Michael Yamin
manages all those multiple sites and, of course, gets,
hopefully, a wire transfer, that's what he's wanting, for all
those sites.
Q. Referring to Government's Exhibit JR-A-11. This is an
e-mail message from Janice Lee at money@landslide.com -- I
mean, I'm sorry. A message from Michael Yamin to Janice Lee at
money@landslide.com from Michael Yamin.
Am I saying that right, Mr. Ritcheson?
A. It's actually from money@landslide going to Miranda, or
Michael Yamin.
Q. I said it right the first time.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. "Michael Yamin, we sent a wire today totaling $44,538.34."
And it lists the web sites, the amounts that are being
included, and the total wire. And it says. "Thanks, Janice
Lee, money@landslide.com."
Going to JR-A-12, which is a two-page of e-mail. So the
first message is at the bottom of the first page of JR-A-12 and
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 503
goes over to the second page. Starting at the bottom of page 1
of JR-A-12, from Houdini:
"Miranda, our site service department has attempted
to contact you several times concerning your 'lack of
content' to customers over the last month or so. You have
definitely generated an excessive amount of chargebacks
and refunds. This disservice will NOT be tolerated nor
will it be allowed to go as long as it has in the past. We
will re-enable your account so you can see your money page
and watch as we debit all of these dissatisfied customers
before we release your funds.
"Also, to help reduce further chargebacks and refunds
and to continue to use our service, you MUST have content
for the customers! We will monitor your sites and
permanently ban you from using our service if you have
further incidents, or if you do not answer the site
managers e-mails concerning problems with your site.
"You are a LARGE amount of revenue, however we must
protect our business and attempt to make sure the customer
is receiving viable content for his/her money. Keyz.com
turns your 'net' idea into a 'MoneyMachine."'
And then the response on the first page of JR-A-12 at
the top, to houdini@landslide.com with carbons to
sites@landslide.com and money@landslide.com. It reads:
"I'm fully understood about our situation here. I'm
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RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 504
also so sorry about the lack of content of my site.
However, with the kind of content that that site had, me
and my provider have a lot lot lot of complaints, too.
You know, that's supposed to be illegal but it brings us a
lot of money, too.
"Most of time, our servers connection has to be
disconnected or my provider will lose their business.
Sometime it even need much more time to re-run the server,
i.e., with different IPs, et cetera. Please understand
our situation, too.
"Haven't I told you about the Interpol coming here?
Not mentioning how many times the FBI gone to our provider
office.
"Anyway, I want to thank you for still trusting me.
I'll find better way to host the content. By the way, do
you have a good server I can use to host some of the
content?"
That is the same message that's been previously
admitted as being on one of the home computers; is that
correct?
A. That's correct. The importance to know that, is more than
one person read it.
MR. HEISKELL: Judge, we'd object to the
nonresponsive answer.
THE COURT: Sustained.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 505
MR. HEISKELL: We ask the jury be instructed to
disregard, please.
THE COURT: The last response by the witness should
be disregarded at this point.
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. Referring to Government's Exhibit JR-A-13, on the second
page of JR-A-13 it shows to be a wire e-mail message from
Janice Lee at money@landslide.com in the amount of $98,441.78,
and going back to the first page --
MR. EDDINS: If you'll do the bottom part of it,
please.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. To Arief Dharmawan, which says: "I sent out part of your
wire today. Total $98,441.78." And it lists the various
sites, web sites, CyberLolita; I Am 14; Child Rape in the
amount of $17,135.49; Child God in the amount of $22,402.31;
Force Child, $23,657.97.
Referring to Government's Exhibit JR-A-14, e-mail to
Janice Lee at money@landslide.com from Arief:
"Hi, Janice. I am curious. When you will wire this
month money? One of my account 'Child God."'
Government's Exhibit JR-A-16, e-mail to Boris Greenberg:
"We sent your wire out. The total is $9,530.43.
spycam, lolil, wire transfer fee, total. Thanks, Janice
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 506
Lee, money@landslide.com."
JR-A-15, e-mail to Hanny Ingganata from Janice Lee,
money@landslide.com: "Hanny Noeh Ingganata, we have sent your
wire transfer for $32,199.95. It includes super comple,
caused, xxxfucked xxxpreteen."
Is that one of the sites in the indictment,
Mr. Ritcheson?
A. Let me verify that.
Q. And xxxteens?
A. Funky is one of the sites.
Q. I'm sorry, Funky.
A. Yes.
Q. In the amount of $11,827.47. Which site was Funky?
A. Special Site is the web site.
Q. Did you also recover, in your forensic analysis of the
computers at Landslide, user names that were associated with
the web sites on the internet?
A. User names that were associated with the web sites?
Q. With the web sites. In other words, you associate Funky
with Special Site.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How do you do that?
A. That information came from the AVS database. It's the
record-keeping system of all the webmasters who participate in
KeyZ and/or AVS, and this is where we're finding -- verified
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RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 507
what we just read to you in these e-mails. I went to the links
table in the AVS database and could see that the Funky is
associated with the web site named Special Site, as well as it
provides the http, or URL address link, so that we could access
it, too. So, there's a lot of information --
Q. Are these just a shorter way of identifying the site --
A. Yes, sir.
Q. -- as it appears on the internet?
A. It's a shorter way of identifying the site for
business-record process, for getting them paid and for other
references.
Q. All right, sir. Referring to Government's Exhibit
JR-A-17. E-mail to R.W. Wisnu Kusuma:
"We have sent your wire transfer of $12,596.49 for
thinks, fucking, and wire transfer fee."
And did you identify which site Thinks went to as
being a Fantastic site named in the indictment?
A. That's correct. And the indicted webmaster is R.W.
Kusuma.
Q. All right, sir. Now, referring to the other computers.
Did you also find two Sun computers at the business location of
Landslide on Seaman Street?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you do a computer analysis of those computers?
A. That is correct.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 508
Q. Referring what we refer to as the Sun-1 computer, did you
do an analysis, a forensic computer analysis, of the contents
of that computer?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Did you find e-mails on that computer?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Banner graphics?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you find KeyZ old rate subscriber information for
webmasters?
A. That is correct.
Q. And have those been marked for identification purposes?
A. Yes, they have.
Q. What is Government's Exhibit Sun 1.1 through Sun 1.9?
A. Those are e-mails.
Q. And were these captured off of one of the Sun computers
seized pursuant to a search warrant there at the Landslide
location?
A. That's correct.
MR. EDDINS: We would offer Government's Exhibit Sun
1.1 through Sun 1.9 at this time, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Your Honor, we would object on the basis
of the search issue previously articulated, and the seizure of
these items are outside the scope of the warrant.
THE COURT: Objection is overruled, and they are
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RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 509
admitted.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. And referring to what's been marked for identification
purposes as Government's Exhibit Sun 1.10 through Sun 1.63, are
these banner graphics that were seized off of the Sun Computer
No. 1 there at Landslide?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And referring to Government's Exhibit Sun -
MR. EDDINS: Your Honor, we would offer Government's
Exhibit Sun 1.10 through Sun 1.63.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the last group of
exhibits.
THE COURT: Overruled. They're admitted. That's
1.10 through 1.6 what?
MR. EDDINS: 1.63, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Thank you.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. And Government's Exhibit Sun 1.64, what is that,
Mr. Ritcheson?
A. Sun 1.64 is the Orates table, or it's a text file that is
utilized by the business in calculating what do the webmasters
want to charge the user access. For instance, KH, if I
recollect, would be like $29.95 for a period of 30 days.
MR. EDDINS: We would offer Government's Exhibit Sun
1.64, Your Honor.
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RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 510
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the last exhibits.
THE COURT: Overruled. It's admitted.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. And you have also in front of you Sun 1.65 and 1.66; is
that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. And what are those two exhibits?
A. These exhibits represent a special routine to extract
indicted webmaster information from the links table, from the
AVS database that was located on the Sun computer. And 1.66,
that -- let's see, 1.66, same thing. Let me take a look at it.
Yes. Now, these both represent -- 1.65 represents a
backup that was performed of the AVS database.
Q. Are those exact copies of the links tables that resided on
the Sun 1 computer system?
A. Within the backup file that was performed on August 23rd
and subsequently on August 27th, yes.
MR. EDDINS: Offer Government's Exhibit Sun 1.65 and
Sun 1.66, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the last exhibit.
THE COURT: Overrule. Admitted.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. And you have also Sun 1.67. Would you identify for the
record what that is.
A. Yes. That is the AVS adult classifieds.
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RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 511
Q. And are those the same classifieds on the Sun 1 computer
as you previously identified for the jury on the home computer?
A. That is correct. I verified them by placement of 118.
It's the same ad.
Q. All right, sir.
MR. EDDINS: Offer Sun 1.67, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objection as the last exhibit.
THE COURT: Overruled and admitted.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. Now, was there also another Sun computer that we will
identify as Sun No. 2 computer at Landslide business location
on Seaman Street that you also did a forensic analysis of?
A. That is correct,
Q. And did you also take from that computer business records
that resided on that computer pursuant to your forensic
analysis routines?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Referring to Government's Exhibit Sun 2.1 through Sun
2.36, are all of those records a part of the Sun 2 computer
that you did a forensic analysis of?
A. That is correct.
Q. And that were seized pursuant to a search warrant?
A. That is correct.
MR. EDDINS: Offer Sun 2.1 through Sun 2.36, Your
Honor.
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RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 512
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the last exhibit.
THE COURT: Sun 2.1 through Sun 2.36 are all
admitted. Objection is overruled.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. And for the purposes of saving time, I believe Sun 2.1 and
Sun 2.3 are banner graphics that resided in that computer; is
that correct? Advertising graphics?
A. Yes. They are banner graphics that resided on that
computer.
Q. And Sun 2.31 are links to webmasters records; is that
correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Sun 2.32 are subscription records relative to Steve
Nelson's undercover purchase of web sites from Landslide?
A. That is correct.
Q. And Sun 2.33 and 2.34 are what, Mr. Ritcheson?
A. Those are web pages.
Q. Okay. And then Sun 2.35 and 2.36 are what?
A. Those are banner graphics that are -- that we'll be
discussing --
Q. That resided on that computer of the defendants?
A. That's correct.
MR. EDDINS: If we could pull up Sun 2.35.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. Now, Mr. Ritcheson, did you make a comparison of the
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various records that were seized in this investigation that you
did a forensic analysis of?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And let me ask you this: In the computers that you did an
analysis of, could Landslide, through their computers, have
disconnected any webmaster that they chose to disconnect?
A. Yes, sir, absolutely.
Q. Referring to Sun -- SN-A-2.1 and Sun 2.36, what does that
comparison show?
A. Okay. On the left side of the screen, you will notice
it's from a VHS tape, a printed copy or capture, from AVS Gold.
That's at the bottom of their home page for AVS Gold, which was
all the adult links at the time.
Q. Is that the Steve Nelson captured tape in this
investigation?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And on the right side?
A. On the right side is the banner graphic containing "Click
Here Child Porn" that was seized or I recovered from the Sun 2
computer.
Q. All right. Now, referring to Government's Exhibit
SN-B-2.1 and Sun 1.43, the Steve Nelson captured Web Buddy CD,
Blackcat Lolita Photo Series, and on the right is the banner
Blackcat Lolita Photo Series residing in the -
A. On the Sun 1 computer.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL III, 514
Q. At Landslide.
A. That's correct.
Q. Referring to Government's Exhibit SN-B 2.1, comparing that
with Sun 2.35 banner graphic, Steve Nelson captured compared
with defendants' computer.
Referring to SN-C-2.1, comparing that with -- which was
the Steve Nelson captured banner in his investigation with the
Sun 1.27, comparing the Steve Nelson captured Web Buddy to
SN-C-2.1 with another Sun separate banner, Sun 1.30.
A. Please, what's on the left side, of course, is the Web
Buddy capture Lolita Hardcore. That's the name of that web
site.
Q. And on the right side is the banner residing in the
defendants' computer.
A. That's correct.
Q. On Seaman Street.
A. That is correct.
Q. Comparing Government's Exhibit Steve Nelson SN-C-2.1 and
Sun 1.32. The Steve Nelson capture on the left; the
defendants' Sun computer banner advertising on the right; is
that correct?
A. That's correct. And we're still looking at on the left
side the Web Buddy capture of Lolita Hardcore is the name of
that web site.
Q. All right, sir. Now, I won't go through all of the
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comparisons that you came up with.
Referring to Government's Exhibit SN-E-2.1, the Steve
Nelson captured -- and comparing that with TR-A-65, the image
off of the home computer.
Referring to SNE-5 to another, the same image, TR-A-65.
Referring to Government's Exhibit SN-F-5, Web Buddy captured by
Steve Nelson with TR-A-39 captured on the computer at the
defendants' residence.
A. And what you see on the left was from the web site
Children of God.
Q. Comparing SN-H-2.1, the Steve Nelson captured Web Buddy
Children Forced To Porn with image TR-A-65 recovered from the
defendants' residence.
Referring to Government's Exhibit SN-I-4, Fantastic Site
image captured by Steve Nelson on Web Buddy, with TR-B-3. TR-B
is the other --
A. That's correct. It's the notebook computer from the
residence.
Q. All right, sir. Referring to SN-K-10, Special Site
computer image, compared with the TR-B-3 image. These appear
to be the same minor subject?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Mr. Ritcheson, did you also find in your analysis a
comparison of a number of other banners that have not been
displayed to the jury and pictures that have not been displayed
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to the jury between the web sites that are the subject of this
-- these counts in this indictment and the images found on the
defendants' computers at their home?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. EDDINS: I'll pass the witness, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Will there be cross?
MR. BALL: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may proceed.
MR. BALL: Thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. BALL:
Q. Mr. Ritcheson, or Inspector Ritcheson, the last several
images we saw up on the screen would be like a comparison of an
image that was seen on the internet and then an image that was
found on one of the Landslide or Reedy computers?
A. That's correct.
Q. All right. Was there anything from your forensic analysis
-- and I'm talking about the single images as opposed to
banners. I'll get to that in a minute -- that showed that the
images as we saw them on the internet, that their source or
origin was any of the images that were located on a Reedy or
Landslide computer?
A. No, sir. I was unable to discover that.
Q. All right. In fact, that series of photographs, I believe
it was SN -- or not SN. I believe it may have been TR-A-10
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through 80, was that the series of individual child
pornographic images found on the desktop?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. You said, with the exception of two of those
images, I believe 79 and 80, the rest of those images were
located in a directory or the location as they existed on the
desktop computer was a file called Windows Temp; is that right,
sir?
A. That's correct.
Q. All right. And that's Windows/T-E-M-P?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. And was there something after that in the
name, a description or location of, say, a specific image?
A. Well, we have the file names associated with them.
Q. All right.
A. Like they normally start with H E-L, or we normally refer
to them as the "Helen" series.
Q. All right. Could you determine from that examination of
those -- some 70 images what the original source was of those
images?
A. No, sir, I could not. But I may be able -- I have an idea
why it was difficult for us in trying to obtain that
information.
Q. All right. Well, from your forensic -- When we say a
"forensic examination of computers," can you just give us a
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short description of what you're talking about there?
A. Yes, sir. As it specifically relates to your concern, we
look for what sites the defendants had visited and we look, for
instance, at indicted webmaster sites the defendant had
visited. We also look for the file names or something similar
on the file names so that way if we get any kind of hits, we'll
see what sites he may have visited.
On the residence computers, I was unable to obtain any of
that information; however, what I did note, there was a program
that the defendants possessed called -- by Jetico (phonetics),
BC Wipe. BC Wipe is a special utility that is used for wiping
or eradicating sensitive files, files of nature, so that way
they cannot be recovered. They cannot be found.
I used these type tools in my investigations to prepare
hard drives before I copy evidentiary matter to them, for
instance. The Department of Defense uses this type of program
so that way they can be sure to totally eradicate and destroy
any files so that way they won't fall into the hands, other
hands, for instance.
Q. All right, sir. My question was just a general
description of forensic examination, not some specific item.
A. I'm sorry.
Q. You seized several computers and hard drives. What does
forensic examination of those things mean?
A. Well, it's the type of approach that we use on type of key
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words searches or trying to recover deleted files or trying to
see, again, you know, what web sites someone had visited. And,
also, we take into account the software that may have been
installed on the suspect's computer as well and see how that
may have a relation, directly or indirectly, to our subsequent
forensic examination.
Q. All right. Incidentally, let's take the two home -- the
two computers that were at home, the laptop or notebook, the
TR-B, I believe, and TR-A, the desktop. We've seen a number of
things introduced into evidence that were contained on those
two computers. It certainly is not representative of the
entire content of those computers. There were a lot of other
matters unrelated to pornography or even the business
information. Is that true, sir?
A. That is true. There were business folders and files on
those machines as well, and other programs.
Q. All right. So the TR-A-10 through 80, you don't have any
information from your forensic examination of any of these
computers that those images were ever posted on any web site on
the internet. True, sir?
A. That is true.
Q. All right. Would it be fair to say in viewing images on
the internet in the adult entertainment, whether they be
depictions of adult or certainly children, that one might go to
a web site A and then web site B and some of the images are the
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same?
A. Oh, yes, sir.
Q. All right. People copy, steal, trade, et cetera; is that
right, sir?
A. That's true.
Q. All right. So if we see an image on the internet and then
we see an image somewhere else that doesn't necessarily mean
that that image was necessarily obtained from that location or
sent to the web site, correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. It could have come from some other source. True, sir?
A. That is true.
Q. Are you familiar with something called "news groups"?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What are news groups, please.
A. News groups is the way you can post images up there, up to
the web site. It's a type of news group server. And other
people, of course, can download those images. It's a form of
messages as well as files.
Q. Is it different from a web site or web page like the
things we've seen with colors and ads and -
A. Yes, sir.
Q. -- so forth?
A. The difference is that they're not as pretty designed.
They don't have a lot of what you see on web pages. There is a
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visual difference or appearance.
Q. All right. And essentially news groups, someone could go
and put a posting of either text or images or things of that
sort on a news group, correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Could you determine or do you know whether or not TR-A-10
through 80, the original source was news groups?
A. No, sir, we could not determine that.
Q. All right. Now, let's talk a minute about the banners.
There were two Sun computers, I believe, at the business
location, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. Now, are those the same, like a PC, a home
PC-type computer, or are they a little bit different?
A. Oh, no, sir. They're a high-end computer processing. It
uses an operating system that's so much more robust and more
powerful than what the normal layman is associated with on
personal computers.
Q. All right. Are those servers?
A. Yes, sir. These were configured as servers.
Q. Are they somehow connected to the internet or web?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. And what's the difference between a server and
just a regular ordinary PC computer, a desktop or laptop?
A. These servers, for instance, were -- they had programs on
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them that were web host services. So that way you could -- the
business had placed like KeyZ and ClicZ and other type of web
pages so that way people from within the internet could visit
their site and make it available to the public.
Q. Okay. So let's take, for example, at the very beginning
of the trial there was a picture or an image of the Landslide
home page that had Landslide and some color graphics of
orangeish or reddish or something. Do you recall that page,
sir?
A. Yes, that would be a web page.
Q. All right, sir. If I -- I believe that web site address
was Landslide -- If I put in www.landslide.com that's the image
that presumably I get, correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. All right. And, actually, where that image is housed, is
located, was it on one of those servers?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. So when I'm looking at an image, somehow over the
internet, the packets of information that go back and forth,
that has been brought to my computer screen from one of those
Sun servers, correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. And so if we go to one of these child pornographic
web sites, such as Child Rape or something like that, and we
start seeing images, pictures of children engaged in sexual
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activity, such as the jury has seen in a number of exhibits on,
let's say, Child Rape's web site, is that located on something
similar to the Sun servers, a server somewhere else?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. And none of those web sites that are the
subjects of the counts in the indictment, such as Children
Forced to Porn or the other ones that are listed there, none of
those were housed or hosted on these two Sun machines at the
Landslide business location. Is that true?
A. That is correct.
Q. Those web sites and their content were hosted somewhere
else that was designated by those webmasters that were running
them; is that right?
A. That is correct.
Q. Okay. Now, let's talk about the banners. A number of
exhibits that were introduced into evidence this afternoon were
banners that advertised a variety of web sites, such as "For
Child Porn Click Here," the Fling Little Kids one and things
like that. That was on one of those Sun servers; is that
right, sir?
A. That is true.
Q. All right. And so if I go to a web site and I see, for
example, "For Child Porn Click Here" as a banner on a page, do
you know whether or not over the internet the packet of
information has gone to one of these Sun servers and retrieved
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that and put it up on that page in that particular space?
A. At one time it appeared that the graphic image may have
come from the Sun server, the "Click Here For Child Porn"
graphic. And the reason I state that is when you look in the
source code for the web page development off the Web Buddy,
you'll see image source equals http//clicz.com/clicz(1).cgi.
Q. I don't think she's getting that, so you might -- nor am
I.
A. There's a specific code that you can populate your web
page remotely with another banner located on a different site.
I believe you brought this up as an example on previous
crosses.
Now, at the time I did the analysis and on the Web Buddy,
that code was inoperable on the Miranda web sites. When you
look at the image source, looking for a "Click Here For Child
Porn," they had renamed that into just
Here Child Porn." So that banner graphic was now physically
resident at those Miranda sites when we did the Web Buddy.
So, yes, I did not find evidence that -- the hard evidence
that would say that did go up there and Landslide provided
that. I do see an indication, because I analyzed the program
script, that at one point in time that very well may have been
accommodated by Landslide.
Q. All right. So let me see if I understood at least a
portion of that. When you go on Web Buddy to the Miranda site
if image of "Click
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-- and which one was that, or what was the name?
A. Blackcat Lolita or Lolita Hardcore.
Q. Okay. So when we go to Blackcat and we see that banner
"For Child Porn Click Here," you try to determine the source of
that banner --
A. Yes.
Q. -- as it existed on Blackcat's page. Did I understand
that right, sir?
A. That's correct.
Q. And there is a way to do that by -- to look at some code,
there's a way to try to determine the location of where that
came from; is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. All right. And what it was giving back to you was that
that banner was actually stored or hosted, if I understood you
correctly, on Miranda or Blackcat's server somewhere else.
A. Yes, sir, at the time of the Web Buddy.
Q. A11 right. Do you know whether or not that these series
of banners that you found on the Sun servers were the banners
-- did they all appear to be the banners that were in the
so-called banner exchange program that appeared to be run by
ClicZ?
A. When I looked at those banners, they came from a different
area than where the ClicZ was resolved to. Let me give you an
example. When we look at "Click Here For Child Porn," is what
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we found off the Sun system. That was within the area of where
ClicZ, so that makes me feel comfortable that at one time this
was part of the banner swap exchange program known as C1icZ
that subsequently was disabled and will tell you so once you
click on a ClicZ button.
The other banners were found on a different area
altogether, and I could not make a determination that that was,
in fact, part of the ClicZ or banner swap program, because
there was no -- there were no code references to it from a
different programming script.
Q. All right. You don't know -- you couldn't determine or
rule that out, could you, that it was part of the banner
exchange?
A. The only thing that I could possibly determine is if they
had actually subsequently copied them over and then deleted
them when they took down the ClicZ banner swap program. That
is a possibility.
Q. All right. Do you know how -- Could you determine from
your forensic examination how the banners actually got on the
servers?
A. Are you talking about the ones outside of the ClicZ area?
Q. Well, any of them, how they got on the Sun servers, either
the ones that were within the ClicZ or the other ones you
talked about.
A. With the exception of possibly the "Click Here For Child
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Porn," I do not know at all how the other banners got there.
Q. All right. Do you know whether or not -- First of all, is
it possible for someone running -- that has servers that's
running a banner exchange program to authorize webmasters who
want to participate in that program to upload from their
location, banners?
A. If they went into that type of business agreement, yes,
sir, where they allow the webmasters to have that type of
access to their home pages, that is possible.
Q. Okay. So it's possible if I'm Miranda, or Michael Yamin I
believe is the individual's correct name, and I want to create
a banner to advertise my site, if I'm given sufficient
information or code or authorization, I can actually upload or
send across the internet and store it on the person that's
authorized its server, correct?
A. That's correct. That's what we call -- we don't pay for
the internet but this is where they make some of their money.
It's called advertising. This is an advertising aspect of it
by allowing to be able to advertise links on your web page to
go to other sites. Normally, there's some type of compensation
for that, either monetarily or otherwise.
Q. All right. Could you determine from your forensic
examination -- Did I understand you correctly that when you got
these servers, was KeyZ at that point disabled or not in
operation?
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A. ClicZ.
Q. ClicZ, I'm sorry.
A. ClicZ was disabled. It did state that the banner swap
program was down. However, there were some -- There's a
clicz.cgi script, which is referred to by different accounts
from the "Click Here For Child Porn" on the Miranda web sites,
and it would pass a number back to ClicZ and it would resolve
itself through the program to one, either redirect Landslide --
Let me back up.
It would take it from the Blackcat Lolita, for instance,
and if you click on "Click Here For Child Porn," you go back to
Landslide on ClicZ. The code would then determine, based on
the account number that it passed, am I going to send you over
to one of three web sites that Miranda owned, like
fugiama.kintamani.com or cogal.kintamani.com (phonetics) and if
all that fails, well, then it would actually, by default,
redirect you to Pussies4U.
Q. All right.
MR. BALL: Could I have Sun 2.35.
BY MR. BALL:
Q. Do you see that, Inspector?
MR. BALL: Well, actually I want -- If you could
bring up the bottom -- Yes, ma'am.
BY MR. BALL:
Q. All right. She's highlighted or brought it up a little
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larger so that we can see the bottom, right portion of that
particular page. What is that information there, sir?
A. That was the actual or physical location from the hard
drive on the Sun computer. The partition was defined as
"home," and then, of course from there it was www, which is
another folder. Docs is another subfolder, VH1, which stands
for virtual host, that's common, incoming.
Q. All right. Does the word -- And is that the location of
that banner, essentially, on the server?
A. That's correct.
Q. It tells you where it was and where it came from?
A. Well, that's where I retrieved it from, yes, sir.
Q. Okay. And does the term "incoming" mean anything to you?
A. Yes, sir. With the two banners on "Click Here For Child
Porn," they appear at one time to be participants in a C1icZ
banner swap program that Landslide was hosting.
Q. All right. Does that indicate to you -- Can you determine
from this information whether or not that "Click Here Child
Porn" was sent to the server by someone else and is coming in,
or incoming?
A. Since they disabled the banner swap program, a lot of that
stuff was -- had been deleted, I believe, or changed. You
know, I can't determine that. As I previously stated before,
they had cgi script, or a program script, where you could do an
image source and go back to ClicZ and pull up a banner. But
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since they did the Web Buddy, they had disabled that. I don't
have that information. I just see an indication of it. So you
are correct, I cannot determine that that child porn banner was
actually being furnished dynamically from Landslide to the
Miranda web sites.
Q. All right. And did I understand you to say you couldn't
determine whether that particular banner was sent to the
Landslide web server by Miranda or someone else.
A. That's correct.
Q. All right. It's certainly possible that that particular
banner, depending on the programming of the server and at
Landslide, could have been sent and placed on that machine,
that Sun server, without any human intervention at Landslide.
A. That's correct. Now, I did do a comparison on the
Blackcat Lolita, on the banner graphics, where it says "Click
Here For Child Porn" -- "Click Here Child Porn," on the Web
Buddy that captures that as a file, and I was able to compare
that and that is exactly the same file as the two "Click Here
Child Porn" banners that we found on the Sun computer.
Q. All right. Now, let's talk about images for a minute.
You mentioned before you could look at an image or something
and sometimes there's something called source code or
something? Did I understand you correctly?
A. On the web pages, there's source code, yes.
Q. Well, if I'm looking at an image on the internet, if I go
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up to my tool bar and, I think, click "view source," there's a
box that comes up with some information.
A. That's correct.
Q. And what is that information that's actually textual or
code sort of information. What's that?
A. Yes, sir. That's how the web page is designed and set up.
For instance, for the webmasters to participate in the KeyZ,
they had to have some type of code that would point them back
to Landslide to be verified for the user ID and log-in ID
process. So that type of relationship had to be established in
order to make this work effectively.
Q. All right. Can individuals within an image on
the internet, can they hide somewhere
contraband-sort-of-information, put it somewhere in the coding,
so that only people who know where to look could see it?
A. Yes. What you're referring to is normally known as
stegonography (phonetics).
Q. I'm sorry?
A. It's stegonography. It's a cryptic science. It dates back
to ancient times where they take a messenger, they shave his
head, tattoo a message on the top of his head, let him grow his
hair back while he delivers a message to another kingdom. It
is that old.
Q. All right. That method would take some time, I gather.
Well, let's talk about it on the internet where we don't have
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to wait for hair to grow. Can people send images on the
internet and hide -- I don't know if I can pronounce the word
you used -- but hide information or messages?
A. Yes, sir, and the container, or the image file, that is
normally used in this process is an uncompressed jif file.
Q. All right. So if I had stolen credit card numbers, I
could post them or send them somewhere and the casual user that
doesn't know where to look would just pull that up and they
would see a picture.
A. That is correct.
Q. And the more sophisticated person that wants to try to get
that information, if they know how to do it, they can pull it
up and see stolen Visa and MasterCard information, or any other
information I might want to put on there; is that right?
A. They would have to use a special program that would allow
them, in other words, to remove the container and see what was
inside. In this instance, we're talking about an image. So
you are correct.
Q. All right. But there's nothing that changes the
appearance of the image by putting that type of information in
there.
A. It does make subtle changes to the appearance of the
image.
Q. All right. Is that something detectable by the average
viewer?
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A. No, sir.
Q. All right. Now, you said in your forensic examination at
some point you went and -- I think Mr. Eddins asked you a
question something along the lines of did you see any evidence
that there was any reporting to police organizations on any of
the Reedy or Landslide computers. Do you recall that inquiry?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And I believe you said you searched five computers to try
to make that determination; is that right?
A. I actually searched 23 computers, six tapes, or a total of
about -- I've got to get to my notes, but it's about 23 hard
drives.
Q. Now, when you say that, you didn't actually look at every
item of information on all of those computers or hard drives,
did you?
A. Well, the way the search program works, the program will
search through all of that. So I let it run and it takes
hours. And then it returns any hits or any results if they
match on the word, such as customs, police, Interpol, FBI.
Q. All right. It's dependent on the key words that you put
in there for it to look for; is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. I mean, a simpler version might be a Windows 98 or
something, if you go down and click on the start bar it has a
search tool within the program. It's a similar sort of an
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idea; is that right?
A. Yes, sir, similar concept.
Q. If I'm looking for something in my computer, I can type
"police," and it will run through and eventually find anything
that might have that on there.
A. Yes, sir. There's one additional item that we have on
this is that we have the ability with these search tools to
search for files in slack space or previously deleted files.
Q. All right. What key words did you use to make this
particular inquiry on these drives and computers?
A. FBI was one key word. Customs, police, and Interpol.
Q. All right. Did you put in "FBI," the letters, and
"Federal Bureau of Investigation," or just "FBI"?
A. I just did the FBI.
Q. All right. So that search is only as good as the -- if
you type in FBI, and the word Federal Bureau of Investigation
is on an e-mail, it's not going to pick that up, is it?
A. That's correct.
Q. All right. Did you do any other word or key word searches
through these machines?
A. Yes, I did two spins on Fort Worth PD. For instance, "FT
Worth PD" or Fort Worth, space, PD.
Q. All right. Did you run any other -- Setting aside the
inquiries regarding police and FBI and so forth, did you run
any other subject-directed inquiries on your search?
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A. Yes, sir. Some of the additional key words that I used
were "child," "porn," child meaning if I get a hit on child,
it's going to return child space porn, it's going to return
childporn, all one word. So it's like a, you know, it can be a
mixture.
Q. All right. Did you see, in running that type of search,
on all of these -- You did that on all the machines?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. I think you said 28 or something that would include hard
drives?
A. That's an approximate.
Q. You said something about tapes. Are we talking about
tapes we listen to in our car, or are you talking about data
tapes?
A. I'm talking about data tapes that I restored that were
utilized by the defendants to perform backups.
Q. All right. And when you ran those, I take it if any of
those words appeared in e-mails you would have gotten a hit,
correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. So if the Reedys or Landslide were sending e-mails out to
people and putting in their e-mails words like "child porn" or
"children" or something -- the terms that you used, you would
get a hit, correct?
A. That's correct.
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Q. All right. You would also get a hit if they got an e-mail
and somebody put that in there, it would bring up a hit. It
didn't distinguish between whose writing it was, correct, sir?
A. That is absolutely correct.
Q. All right. Did you, in putting those types of words,
"child porn" or "children," the ones that you used, did you
find any e-mails written by Thomas Reedy or Janice Reedy
suggesting or directing anyone to put child pornography on
their web pages?
A. No, sir.
Q. All right. Did you run any other type -- similar types of
inquiries on other subject matters? We've talked about law
enforcement and we've talked about child porn types of key
words. Any other?
A. Oh, yes. Within the law enforcement community "Lolita,"
you know, other type words like that. That was part of search
strings. There was a host. I actually had about 65 key word
searches.
Q. Sixty-five different types of searches, or 65 searches, I
guess?
A. I could do one search with referencing a text file of 65
items that I'm looking for as a result.
Q. You can do it all in one search. It just takes a little
longer?
A. That's correct.
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Q. All right. Did you take the names of the webmasters that
are named in the indictment as co-conspirators, Boris Greenberg
and the other two that I have difficulty pronouncing, did you
take those names and put them in a search?
A. No, sir. What I did put in the search were their sites,
their accounts, and the web sites that they're associated with,
and I did that search on the residence computers.
Q. All right. Did you do that search so that it would try to
retrieve any e-mails that might have occurred between
Landslide, the Reedys, and these individuals?
A. No, sir. We also had the option to visually review the
e-mails and read them and that's, in fact, what we did with all
the systems. But I did this, what I just told you before, to
try to determine where did these child porn images come from,
and, of course, the result was negative on trying to identify
where those kiddy porn images at the residence came from.
Q. All right. Did you in your forensic examination of all
the computers, you or someone under your direction assisting
you, visually look at every single e-mail?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. Did you see any e-mails where Thomas Reedy or
Janice Reedy was directing anybody to put child pornography on
the internet?
A. The only one is what we previously covered complaining
about lack of content. But we read that e-mail, and that
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - CROSS - BALL VOL III, 538
e-mail did not necessarily provide a specific or direct order
for the webmaster to put more kiddy porn content on there. But
it's a determination -- It's your interpretation of how you
read that e-mail.
Q. Okay. That's a matter of interpretation of "content"; is
that right?
A. That's right.
Q. Do some unscrupulous webmasters put advertising out on the
internet and when you go to their page you don't get anything,
or you might get a page -- or you might pay for something and
you go behind it and there's nothing there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. There's no content at all?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The customer is ripped off in that sense?
A. (Nods head.)
Q. Okay.
MR. BALL: Let me get up on the screen, if I could,
Sun 1.67. It's this multi-page adult classifieds. And I would
like to look at the last page of it, if I could. Go to page --
Well, these are numbered. The last page. I think it's 33.
That box at the bottom, if we could kind of focus on that.
BY MR. BALL:
Q. That's a multi-page -- that's the last page of some 30 or
some odd pages that consisted of the adult classifieds; is that
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - CROSS - BALL VOL III, 539
right?
A. That's correct.
Q. And I believe you indicated that you retrieved those
classified ads on two machines; is that right?
A. That is correct.
Q. One of the Sun machines and where was the other one?
A. It was at the residence, on one of their computers at the
residence.
Q. And, incidentally, those computers at the residence, were
they internet capable?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know whether those computers at the residence could
communicate with the Sun machines and retrieve information such
as, let's say, somebody wanted to work at home?
A. That's correct.
Q. If they've got the correct information and access, you
could be at your home and you can go to your computer at your
office and retrieve information and do work without going down
to the office, right?
A. That is correct.
Q. Okay. This particular exhibit, is this -- on the last
page, is this how someone submits a posting?
A. Yes. That's standard.
Q. All right. So the advertisements that appear above this
on the 30 some odd pages, were created using this, I guess,
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - CROSS - BALL VOL III, 540
tool or feature at the bottom; is that right?
A. I did not research it that far, but I would have every
expectation that is the method.
Q. All right. And it asks the person for their e-mail
address in one field, an ad password, 40-word classified ad.
That box, 40-word classified ad, that's where the person can
type in whatever it is they want to put on the posting,
correct?
A. That's correct. At the Landslide services.
Q. If I say I'm looking for child porn, and I submit it, that
ad is going to pop up on -- or at least that appears to be how
it works, that ad is going to pop up on the classifieds; is
that right?
A. Yes. The classifieds as hosted at Landslide, yes, sir.
Q. Okay. It doesn't go through anything else to do that, in
terms of any human being looking at what I've typed in there,
does it?
A. Well, there are text files that's based on the
classifieds. I do agree with you that it was an automated
process, but, of course, it could have been subject to review.
Q. It could have been subject to review, but as it's designed
it wasn't, correct?
A. Exactly.
Q. I could put "I'm selling hot dogs tomorrow" on there,
submit it, and that's what the ad is going to say, right?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - CROSS - BALL VOL III, 541
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know what the feature "ad password" or "ad code" is
used for? Do you see that on the right here?
A. Ad password or ad code. I didn't research the programming
code behind it to that great extent, but I would expect that so
that way a person can remove his ad or add to it without
allowing anybody else to.
Q. All right. In other words, when you submit the ad you
select an ad password.
A. Yes.
Q. And if you later decide, oh, I want to take that off, you
can go back and you can take it off but it's going to ask you
for your password.
A. That's correct.
Q. That's to keep other people from removing your ad.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay.
MR. BALL: If I can -- I believe it's going to be
page 6, at least on the paper pages of the ads, of that same
exhibit. Well, no, these aren't numbered.
BY MR. BALL:
Q. Let me ask the witness. Maybe we don't need to see it,
unless he needs to refresh his recollection.
Were there some ads -- Did you look at most or all of the
ads that were on the adult classifieds?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - CROSS - BALL VOL III, 542
A. I looked at a lot.
Q. All right. Were there, in fact, ads suggesting that
people would trade KeyZ passwords for other things, pictures or
other passwords, things like that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. In other words, some people were putting an ad
up suggesting that they had a password that they had purchased
from a web, KeyZ, for example, and if someone would give them
something they would give them the password so they could go
look at the stuff for free, essentially.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. That's certainly, at least, not to the
financial advantage of the people that are in the business of
selling passwords, is it?
A. You are correct.
Q. All right. It wouldn't stand -- It wouldn't comport with
common sense or reason to think that that type of an ad was
reviewed by anybody at Landslide and approved for posting,
would it?
A. Unfortunately, they were not reviewed. Now, theoretically
you could set up a program review for that type of fraud.
Q. All right. So there was actually fraudulent -- attempts
to defraud people out of money going on in these ads as well;
is that right?
A. That's true. But like you say, they could try to identify
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - CROSS - BALL VOL III, 543
that through some programming additions, as well as doing
automated process to review for ads concerning illegal content.
Q. All right.
MR. BALL: Could I have JR-A-17, please.
THE COURT: Tell me where you are in your cross.
MR. BALL: 75 percent done, I guess.
THE COURT: Well, I think we need to take a break.
The jury has been in the box more than an hour and a half.
MR. BALL: That's fine. Thank you.
THE COURT: All right. We'll take a ten-minute break
and be back.
(Court in recess, 3:39 p.m. until 4:07 p.m.)
THE COURT: You may proceed, sir.
MR. BALL: Thank you.
BY MR. BALL:
Q. Inspector Ritcheson, I want talk to you a moment about the
thumbnail images, I believe on one of the -- or maybe it was
both, I don't recall, computers located at the Reedy residence.
There were images and then there were thumbnails of images,
correct, sir?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. Was that on one or -- just one computer or
both?
A. Let me look at that real quick.
Q. All right, sir.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - CROSS - BALL VOL III, 544
A. It was on TR-A, the resident desktop.
Q. All right.
A. And that's all.
Q. All right. And I think you said -- Is there a program
called Paint Shop Pro? Was that the program --
A. Yes, sir.
Q. -- that was discussed in reference to those thumbnails and
other images?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. That's a program you can commercially go buy
at Best Buy or Circuit City or some other place that might sell
software, correct?
A. That's one of the sources, yes.
Q. And it's a commonly used computer program; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And if you have images, individual images in a directory
on a computer, if you go to Paint Shop Pro, if you open that
program and I think you click a file "browse" in that
particular directory, it will actually automatically thumbnail
all the pictures in there, won't it?
A. That's correct, and saves it into a separate file within
that directory named pspbrwsc.jbf.
Q. Okay. So if we see a page with 20 thumbnails or a
number of thumbnails on a page, that doesn't necessarily mean
that an individual has individually put those in those
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - CROSS - BALL VOL III, 545
positions. It could have been done through a program such as
the one we've just discussed, correct, sir?
A. That's correct.
Q. All right. Now, incidentally, during the search of the
Reedy residence, I believe, did I understand correctly, there
were two search warrants or a search warrant specifically
naming the desktop and the notebook computer?
A. That's my understanding.
Q. Okay. And during any of the time that investigators or
law enforcement people were at the Reedys' home before those
computers were actually taken into physical custody, was there
any activity with regard to those computers searching through
-- while they were at the residence?
A. I believe they were complying with the search warrant to
see if they could see any indication on those computers of
child pornography.
Q. All right. Who was actually sitting at those computers
doing that search or inquiry?
A. Well, that would either be one of the computer forensic
analysts from the FBI or one of our people with the United
States Postal Inspection Service who does computer forensics.
Q. All right. Were you present when that was done?
A. No, sir.
Q. All right. Can you tell us whether the -- whoever was
reviewing the contents of the desktop, I believe TR-A, used the
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - CROSS - BALL VOL III, 546
Paint Shop Pro program to view anything?
A. Oh, no, sir. They did not use the Paint Shop Pro to view
that program.
Q. All right. You weren't present to see what they used,
though, were you?
A. No, sir. But we don't launch an application just to
review or search for graphics. That goes contrary to our
training. We would use something that would be like a graphic
image viewer, such as you just pull it up, you know, you can
pull up these images in different type of graphic viewers, and
that's my understanding of what they may have done.
Q. Okay. Those people would be more able to specifically
address how that was accomplished?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. If I could direct you to a few exhibits.
MR. BALL: Let's look at TR-A-3, which I believe
is an e-mail, if I haven't confused the numbers here. Yes, and
if we could go down to the bottom, I guess, textual portion
here. That would be good. Thank you.
BY MR. BALL:
Q. All right. This is an e-mail from someone, I believe, to
Landslide, correct, reporting some sites or something?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Now, is this someone at Landslide forwarding this
to someone else at Landslide?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - CROSS - BALL VOL III, 547
A. If we go to the top of the message.
MR. BALL: Click up a tad more.
BY MR, BALL:
Q. In other words, is there on that --
A. Yes. It's from sites@mail.landslide.com, which is the
customer service folks employed by Landslide, to Houdini, which
is one of the defendants.
Q. All right. Is it forwarding an e-mail, though, from
someone else?
A. That's correct.
Q. That was sent to Landslide and then it's passed on from
sites@mail.landslide to houdini@landslide.com.
A. Yes.
Q. All right.
MR. BALL: And if we could go back down to the text,
please, ma'am. Yes, about right there -- or just a tad more.
BY MR. BALL:
Q. I think it said Daniel wrote or something: "Hi, I found
this five site with IP." And then actually six are listed.
"Was selling child porn and their rent your server. I hope you
moved that all site, because I have already reported them to
the Police internet. I would say thank you, thanks," somebody
claiming to be Interpol,
A. That's correct.
Q. All right. What is Interpol. What is that?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - CROSS - BALL VOL III, 548
A. Well, it's a consortium of international police in the
European -- west European realm.
Q. All right. Would it be fair to say it's unlikely this is
from Interpol?
A. I can't make that determination.
Q. All right. What are these -- Do you know what these five
sites are? Did you make a determination as to what they are?
A. No, sir. I don't know what those five sites are.
Q. All right. You don't know whether those -- You can't tell
us whether one through six there are child pornography type
sites, can you, sir?
A. No, sir, not by looking at this.
Q. The claim in the e-mail is but you don't know whether that
claim is correct.
A. That's, you know, that's a correct assumption. Now, I did
not go into the links table at the AVS database to verify if
these are the entry for the web pages for these known child
porn sites. I did not do that.
Q. All right. And it says these people rent his server. The
servers you've talked about, the two Sun machines, were those
the only servers being used by Landslide as best you could
determine?
A. Well, they used numerous other servers as well. There was
a third Sun box, a couple of NT servers, at least, to my
recollection.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - CROSS - BALL VOL III, 549
Q. Were those seized or reviewed?
A. Some of them -- One of them was seized. Two of them, I
believe, were backed up. And, of course, we left some at the
premises.
Q. Is that an inaccurate statement, as best you can
determine, that these people or anyone is "renting" the
Landslide servers?
A. I do not -- I disagree with that particular statement
where it says they rent your server. But whoever wrote that
e-mail does not have a good understanding of how this business
operated on the internet.
Q. They may or may not have been well intentioned. They just
misunderstand some of the terminology and technology, correct?
A. That's correct. They could have gotten KeyZ confused with
being the ones who actually hosted the content instead of.
Q. All right. One could read this e-mail and conclude, if
it's true, that these sites are hosted on the Reedy servers,
but that would not be correct.
A. Could you repeat the question again?
Q. The interpretation of this, that these sites are hosted on
the Reedy servers, or Landslide servers, would be incorrect.
That would be an incorrect --
A. That would be incorrect. Now, the part that's subject to
interpretation, of course, is selling child porn.
Q. All right. I mean, one would have to go and look to see
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - CROSS - BALL VOL III, 550
if that was accurate or inaccurate.
A. That's correct.
MR. BALL: Could I have TR-A-6, please. Let me have
-- Can we take the headers off from welcome reader to about
right there. From right there down to -- That's good. I think
that's fine.
BY MR. BALL:
Q. Do you recall this exhibit, sir?
A. Let me reference it on my book, here. Is that TR-A?
Q. Dash 6.
A. Okay.
Q. All right. This is some sort of a promotional e-mail. Is
that the general nature of it?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And it's saying that this is the first issue
of adult news, "welcome reader," and then it's got some other
information below that, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And it seems to promote a site called -- Is it
promoting a site call the pussies4u.com?
A. That's correct.
Q. All right. And do you know pussies4u.com to be a site
that was actually hosted, as opposed to some of the other ones
we've talked about, by Landslide?
A. Yes, Pussies4u was hosted by Landslide.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - CROSS - BALL VOL III, 551
Q. And have you seen the content on that site, either through
Web Buddy or video capture?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. In fact, was it in the server, the content of
pussies4u.com, was it in any of the servers or computers that
you seized?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. Are you familiar with a company, or have you
heard the name Zmaster or Zmaster Productions?
A. I'm not familiar with that.
Q. All right. Do you know whether or not the Pussies4u web
site has on it information concerning the source and saying
it's in compliance with Title 18 -- I think it's 2557. There's
information on the models. Have you seen that kind of
disclaimer on other adult web sites before?
A. Well, I didn't see it on "P4U," but that may be. I may
not recollect seeing that.
Q. All right. And would it be a correct statement that the
content, the images, that are shown on Pussies4u are of adults?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. It would not be considered a child
pornographic site, correct, sir?
A. That is correct.
Q. All right. And that was a site actually hosted by
Landslide. Is that true?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - CROSS - BALL VOL III, 552
A. That's true.
Q. And that's what's being apparently promoted in this e-mail
to wherever this would be sent, correct, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. And was that a KeyZ site?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right.
MR. BALL: Could I have Sun 1.4.
BY MR. BALL:
Q. This is an e-mail to -- it looks like dnm@landslide.net
from an address at AOL, or America Online, back in August of
1999. Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Does it appear to be a forwarded e-mail from
somebody named James Laing saying, "This is the second time I
have written. Can you please explain why-I cannot enter
Children Of God. Thank you." Is that the message?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Did you find a response from anybody at
Landslide to this e-mail?
A. Not to this specific e-mail.
Q. All right. Do you know whether or not Children Of God was
even -- was out of business or not operating that resulted in
this complaint?
A. I do not know that.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - CROSS - BALL VOL III, 553
Q. All right.
MR. BALL: Can I have 1.5, Sun 1.5. I believe it's
the next one.
BY MR. BALL:
Q. All right. This is -- We may need to blow some of this
up. This consists of four pages.
MR. BALL: Let's get the second page of it. The
bottom two-thirds if we can. Yes, that's good.
BY MR. BALL:
Q. All right. This is an e-mail from Jim Pliler or
something to a help address at keyz.com in August of 1999.
Subject, site named Child Rape. Is that the information at the
top of this portion of the e-mail?
A. Yes.
Q. The person is essentially claiming that they can't get
this site Child Rape, asking if it's been shut down and so
forth. Is that what this person's inquiry is?
A. They are inquiring if it's been shut down of if there's
another reason that it won't load.
Q. All right. And the response begins down here at the
bottom portion is that -- That's a response from KeyZ advising
the individual, and that would be from Jessica Baldwin; is that
right?
A. Yes, I would assume that.
Q. It says Jessica, and there was certainly an employee at
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - CROSS - BALL VOL III, 554
Landslide named Jessica Baldwin; is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. And it says that the site this person is inquiring about
is down, does it not?
A. Yes.
Q. Does it attempt to --
MR. BALL: Let's see if we can go to the next page at
the bottom. That would be good. Down at the bottom it's
advising -- Is that the third page?
BY MR. BALL:
Q. At the bottom there it tells this individual that the
site, this Child Rape site, is down and it tries to switch them
over to pussies4u.com, or an AVS Gold account, doesn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you seen that kind of response to these complaint
e-mails from time to time during the review of the e-mails
collected from Landslide?
A. I've seen this type of response and others where they try
to switch them over to P4U. For instance, we have another
category of e-mails where someone would say I don't like this
site. He has preteen kids. I don't like it. So Landslide
will send back something that says, well, let's switch you over
to P4U instead.
Q. All right. You're saying "P4U," the site we're talking
about here?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - CROSS - BALL VOL III, 555
A. This Pussies4u, yes.
Q. All right. So when these people would complain they
either didn't like this site or they can't find the site or
something, you would frequently see a direction from Landslide,
well, why don't you go to this pussies4u.com.
A. That's correct.
Q. And we'll offer you that to try to make the customer
satisfied; is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. BALL: Let me have, lastly, I believe, Sun 1.8,
another e-mail, if we could have about the bottom half of that.
Well, let's see if we can get up to the -- right there. Let's
stop there for a moment.
BY MR. BALL:
Q. This is to KeyZ, the help address at KeyZ. Subject,
Children Of God, and if we go on back down again, the person is
giving their information about their user name and how much
they paid and so forth. Thinks that site has been disconnected
or is inaccessible for unethical practices and is seeking a
refund; is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. At least as a part of that exhibit I don't see a response
from Landslide. Did you ever locate or do you know if there
was a response to this particular inquiry by this -
A. I could not really identify a response to this particular
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - CROSS - BALL VOL III, 556
inquiry.
Q. All right. And do you know whether that complaint is
accurate, that in fact on the date it was sent, which appears
to be August 6th of '99, that Children Of God was shut down and
was out of business?
A. That's beyond my knowledge.
Q. All right. And you indicated that -- I believe you
answered a question from Mr. Eddins that reviewing the
computers associated with Landslide that you could disconnect
the webmasters, or some answer of that sort. Do you recall
that?
A. Yes.
Q. What would have been the process to disconnect a
webmaster? Do you know how that would be accomplished?
A. Yes, sir. They could go into the links table and in the
user name, which would be the account for that web site, they
could override it or change it. And that means all subscribers
who are currently subscribed to that web site would not be able
to have access to that web site anymore.
Q. All right. Would it eliminate the KeyZ connection that
was on that webmaster's page, or would that still remain?
A. Oh, that would still remain, but they would -- the thing
is, is that they could not get the user ID and the password
validated at Landslide if in fact that site was disabled.
Q. All right. So, in essence, it's actually shutting off the
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - CROSS - BALL VOL III, 557
customer from getting to the web site as opposed to actually
cutting the web site off.
A. Well, it serves a dual purpose, too, because this was a
business arrangement between Landslide and the webmasters, so
the webmasters would lose loss of income, as well as Landslide,
because they would disable that particular aspect on KeyZ. So
the webmasters wouldn't get any more visitors through KeyZ and
the customers couldn't get to the webmaster anymore.
Q. All right. Did you find anything in any of the computers
that was any kind of an agreement in an e-mail between
Landslide and some web site? I mean, we saw e-mails
concerning, hey, I need to be paid and things of that nature,
but were there any,e-mails saying I want you to run your web
site. Here's what I agree to do. Here's what you agree to do?
A. Yes. We previously submitted an exhibit to that effect, a
directive saying -- to customer service support. If you see
any -- all these type of -- need to have this type of
disclaimer on kiddy porn. It says U.S. residents cannot access
it. Do you remember that e-mail?
Q. That's a policy e-mail directed to another employee at
Landslide.
A. That's correct, to the customer service folks.
Q. A11 right. That wasn't anything sent to -- or that's the
exhibit. The exhibit doesn't indicate it was sent to anybody,
does it, that it was sent to another person outside of
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - CROSS - BALL VOL III, 558
Landslide?
A. Well, they were instructing the customer service supports
that to verify and ensure and remind the webmasters they have
to have something like that.
Q. All right. You don't know whether that was done?
A. I do not know if that was done.
Q. All right. In terms of anything on any of the computers
that you did the forensic examination on, was there any
direction from Landslide to any webmasters to put child content
on their sites?
A. (Pause.) The only -- not a specific directive, but we did
submit some exhibits today that is subject to interpretation
concerning the content on these webmasters. You remember the
one concerning --
Q. Yes, sir. Well, I mean -- When I say "child pornography"
or "child content," if I say you need to put some content on
there, that doesn't include the term "child," does it?
A. Well --
Q. It could or could not. It's a matter of interpretation.
A. That's correct.
Q. Did you see any e-mails or directives from Landslide to
any webmaster to put child content, stating those words, or
child pornography?
A. No, I did not.
MR. BALL: Thank you. That's all.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL III, 559
THE COURT: Mr. Heiskell.
MR. HEISKELL: Yes, Your Honor. Thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. Mr. Ritcheson, I hope not to take too long, and if you
would agree with me that if I ask you something you don't
understand, stop me. If you'll only answer the question I ask,
okay?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You have been with the Postal Inspection Service for how
many years now?
A. Since 1994.
Q. And do you deem yourself an expert in information
technology?
A. I am not an expert.
Q. Okay. You are a specialist in information technology; is
that correct?
A. I'm a specialist within the forensics, computer forensics.
Q. Specialist in forensics.
A. Yes.
Q. You are part of the Task Force, are you not?
A. That's correct.
Q. And as part of the Task Force you have met with other
agents involved with other agencies in connection with the
preparation of your testimony in this case.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL III, 560
A. Have I met with other agencies in the preparation?
Q. Other agents from other agencies, yes.
A. I met with our agents, yes, sir.
Q. All right. And you've told us earlier that when you went
to the home of the Reedys, from that point on I think you used
the term that the "defendants" did this and the "defendants"
did that. On the forensics part of the computers found in the
home, did you determine who actually used the computer, the
laptop computer in the home?
A. I could not determine who actually used the laptop or the
desktop computers, and that's why I referred to as
"defendants."
Q. All right. So you don't know whether only one person or
even, for that matter, some other third-party could have used
it. You're just using that global term "defendants" for
purposes of expediency; is that correct?
A. Well, I used it because there were some e-mails that I
noted, that we submitted as exhibits, where moneyClandslide.com
was authored by Tom Reedy, or at least that's what it appeared
to be in the e-mail. So that let me know that it was a little
interchangeable and therefore I have to refer to them as
defendants because, like you stated before, I cannot determine
which one authored which e-mail or which one used which
computer.
Q. As part of your investigation in preparation of this case,
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RITCHESON - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL III, 561
you had a chance to, in fact, review the interview of Janice
Reedy, haven't you?
A. I didn't get to read the memorandum of interview for
Janice Reedy.
Q. You did not.
A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. When you went to the office, and I think you
identified earlier the office of Janice Reedy where you found
the computer -- and, by the way, was that one of the Sun
computers in her office?
A. No, sir.
Q. That was identified under the TR section, I believe. Am I
correct, of the exhibits?
A. Well, I think we're getting it a little confused. In her
office at the business was a desktop computer, and that's where
I retrieved.
Q. Okay. And how many computers were in that office?
A. Two.
Q. And what was the other computer?
A. A Sony laptop computer.
Q. And you went through that computer as well, did you not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you know that Janice Reedy handled the financial
transactions of Landslide.
A. That's my understanding.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL III, 562
Q. And you know part of the duties and responsibilities in
that regard, she had to take care of the payroll, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. She had to pay the webmasters.
A. That's correct.
Q. She had to pay the bills for the operation itself, whether
it's light, electricity, water, et cetera?
A. Yes.
Q. She had to take care of the wiring, and, in fact, some of
the e-mails talked about wiring up to 100,000 a day. Do you
remember that?
A. Yes.
Q. She also had to take care of the chargebacks.
A. That's correct.
Q. She also had to take care of refunds.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall the lady who was also present at the time by
the name of Kelly Mallick (phonetics), or something to that
effect, Kelly Mallick?
A. No, sir. I do not recall.
Q. You don't know whether at the time Ms. Reedy was training
her to assist in the financial part of the business. You don't
know that.
A. I am unaware of that.
Q. And you also knew that in addition to some of the sites,
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RITCHESON - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL III, 563
and I believe you may be familiar with what Detective Nelson
testified to earlier, and that is he went to on the keyz.com
site I think some 20 something sites. I don't recall the exact
number that he viewed. Do you remember that?
A. Yes, 28 sites.
Q. And you also know that there were approximately 2,000
sites on the keyz.com that were on that particular site, the
domain name, under the domain name keyz.com.
A. There could have been that many sites that KeyZ allowed
access to.
Q. As well as about 3,000 under the AVS, the Adult
Verification System, the other.
A. Yes.
Q. And you knew that Janice Reedy handled the finances for
all of those sites in addition to what has been plucked out
here for the alleged child porn site.
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, when we talked earlier -
MR. HEISKELL: And if you will pull up, please,
JR-A-1. And if you could highlight the bottom portion, please.
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. Now, this is part of the letter that Janice Reedy wrote to
-- and I'm going to probably screw this name up -- Maksim
Kakhovski. From the date -- in sometime in June of 1999?
That's JR-A-1. Do you have that in front of you?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL III, 564
A. Excuse me. I'm there.
Q. Okay. And, in fact, we had a little discussion earlier
about whether this was in fact a reply to JR-A-2, which is the
following exhibit. Do you see that?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, in Janice Reedy's -- In fact, her name is Janice Lee
Reedy, correct? Janice Lee Reedy, do you know that to be her
name?
A. I did not know her middle name.
Q. All right. Here she in fact mentions in the first
sentence the chargebacks, the term I talked about before. Do
you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. And this letter -- I'm sorry, e-mail.
MR. HEISKELL: Could you go back to the top of the
exhibit?
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. It reflects, I take it, that the e-mail was sent on
Saturday, June 5th, 1999, at the top. And then received at the
very next line on June the 6th, 1999. Am I reading that
correctly?
A. Let's see. On the "by sparc.fortworth" line?
Q. Right below that line, correct. It says Saturday, June
5th and then received June 6th?
A. Yes, sir, you could understand that.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RTTCHESON - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL III, 565
Q. Okay. And the A-2 --
MR. HEISKELL: And if you could put up A-2, please.
And if you could go to the top. Yes.
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. And this has the date in that same general vicinity of
June l, 1999, of a message being forwarded or sent from what
you identified earlier as sites@landslide.com.
A. Yes.
Q. And sites@landslide.com is David Cruz, correct?
A. Yes. There was probably another customer service rep that
had access to that account, too, but, yes, sir.
Q. At the bottom of this particular exhibit it says "David."
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. So David is one of the persons at
sites@landslide.com.
A. That's correct.
Q. And David Cruz was in customer service.
A. Yes.
Q. And you know David Cruz, don't you?
A. I've met David Cruz, yes.
Q. Well, this particular document is in reply to David Cruz's
letter that you previously identified at the bottom of that
exhibit. And David Cruz then forwarded it on five or six days
later -- or four or five days later to Janice Reedy, or was
that immediately?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL III, 566
A. He had forwarded this to -- yes.
Q. Now, in the interim or the interval between June 1st,
1999, and June 5th, 1999, there very well could have been other
communications between the -- what's this guy's name, Maksim
Kakhovski and money@landslide, Janice Lee Reedy.
A. That's correct. But if you notice the billing cycles,
they get paid monthly. And you see the three or four or five
day delay you're researching here. That's why we try to
include it. But, yes, you're correct, there could have been
other e-mail messages between those time periods.
Q. Thank you.
MR. HEISKELL: Now, if you'll go back again to
JR-A-1.
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. You have previously identified on A-2 -- and I'll get to
A-1 in just a second. You have A-2 in front of you.
A. Yes.
Q. There was another web name -- or site name, excuse me,
under this particular person that David, in fact, identified.
A. Yes.
MR. HEISKELL: May I approach, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
MR. HEISKELL: Thank you.
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. Let me hand you what has been marked, Mr. Ritcheson, as
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL III, 567
Defendant's Exhibit Reedy No. 2, and ask you to just take a
look at that document. You have seen that before, have you
not?
A. Yes.
Q. And you know this to relate to chargebacks, do you not?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, do you see -- and that's in alphabetical order, is it
not?
A. It should be. It's in alphabetical order by the
webmaster, it looks like.
Q. And the webmaster, real quickly, that was identified as
Maksim whatever.
A. Kakhovski.
Q. Has a different site name under the chargebacks, does it
not, than Kiddy Porn?
A. The site name would be like the user name that's
identified in the webmaster's site.
Q. And this site name here is different from what you see
there.
A. Well, the site name is the same, but it's the name or the
description.
Q. The description.
A. Yes, the home page, www.kiddyporn.org -
Q. It's not on here.
A. -- it's not on here, but that's the URL address to go to.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL III, 568
Q. I understand. But on the chargebacks, you don't have
www.kiddyporn. You have a totally different name.
A. That is correct, yes, sir.
Q. And, in fact, it is a name or acronym KDF(sic)?
A: Yes, sir.
Q. And Janice Lee Reedy is going and taking care of
chargebacks, and if she looks up that webmaster's name, she
won't see kiddy porn on this document, but she will see a KDF;
isn't that true?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, it's also true, is it not, that once David Cruz, the
sites@landslide person, one of them at least, could have
received a complaint regarding this person. He could have gone
down the hallway or across the hallway and talked to Janice Lee
Reedy about what the problem is.
A. That is an assumption, yes, sir.
Q. And then once hearing that from him, she could then
respond just as she would have done here.
A. That's true.
Q. You said you know David Cruz, correct?
A, I've met him.
Q. In fact, you met him on October the 30th, about less than
a month ago.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In fact, you met him in the U.S. Attorney's Office at 1:10
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL III, 569
p.m. on that day, did you not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you know from that meeting that David Cruz told you
that he didn't believe that Janice Lee Reedy knew that there
were child porn images there at Landslide. You knew that,
didn't you?
A. I believe he stated something similar to that effect.
Q. All right. Now, when we talk about these site names, what
we call teasers or puffing. You've heard that term before?
A. Yes.
Q. And, for instance, one of the many exhibits that the
government showed that you identified under this TR section
from 1 through 19 had to do with Preteen XXX, Underage XXX.
There are some other names; you remember that.
A. Which exhibits are those? The TR-A series?
Q. Yes. right after these exhibits, in which Janice Lee is
sending money, wiring money, to the webmasters, 50,000, 90,000,
4,000, a number of exhibits. You saw that.
A. Yes.
Q. And you know from your own experience that oftentimes
people in the business know that webmasters puff or tease with
these names, however horrible they may sound, just to get the
site traffic in to get their revenue up.
A. I've heard of that practice.
Q. And in looking at what you pulled from TR-20, is that the
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RITCHESON - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL III, 570
CD from one of the computers? Am I saying that right?
A. TR-20? You mean JR-20.
Q. JR-20, excuse me.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And JR-20 is one of the computers in the financial office.
A. That's correct.
Q. I think you told us that you pulled up, not only e-mails,
but also the payday information.
A. Yes, sir. Well, the e-mails came from the Sony laptop,
but, yes, you're right, payday information came from the
desktop.
Q. All right. So the e-mails came from the Sony laptop like
you see here, and the payday information came from the other
computer.
A. That's correct.
Q. And the payday information, would you explain to the jury
what that is.
A. Well, I did not -- I was not the CPA that did the work on
this. What I did was recognize that this was in fact the books
of the corporation, or one set of the books of the corporation,
because this file was also on the Sony laptop as well. So once
I recognized that, we needed to provide that to an expert who
was a CPA to do some further analysis.
Q. So these were some financial documents, again, some of
what we talked about earlier. Part of her duties.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RITCHESON - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL III, 571
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you find any evidence on either one of those computers
that Janice Lee Reedy visited any of these sites?
A. No, I did not.
MR. HEISKELL: Thank you. Pass the witness.
THE COURT: Will there be redirect?
MR. EDDINS: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down, sir. Thank you.
MR. EDDINS: Your Honor, the government would offer
at this time what's been marked Government's Exhibit LS-1,
which is certified articles of incorporation relative to
Landslide, Inc.
MR. BALL: No objection.
THE COURT: LS what?
MR. EDDINS: LS-l.
THE COURT: Does someone have a page reference?
MR. EDDINS: It's on page 18, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Thank you. Admitted.
MR. EDDINS: This shows Landslide, Inc., articles of
incorporation filed on February the 13th of 1997, and the
incorporator, the director, and registered agent was Thomas
Reedy.
THE COURT: All right.
You may call your next witness.
MS. MOORE: We'll call Steed Huggins.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HUGGINS - DIRECT - MOORE VOL III, 572
THE COURT: Mr. Huggins, will you please raise your
right hand and be sworn, or were you sworn yesterday?
MR. HUGGINS: I was sworn the day before yesterday.
THE COURT: You may be seated, sir. Please recall
that you're still under oath.
STEED HUGGINS,
having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Will you introduce yourself, please, sir.
A. My name is Steed Huggins.
Q. Is that Steed, S-T-E-E-D?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Okay. Did I call you Steve for about six months?
A. Yes.
Q. How are you employed, Mr. Huggins?
A. I am a United States postal inspector.
Q. How long have you been an inspector with the post office?
A. Twenty-nine and a half years.
Q. Okay. And have you been one of the agents -- supervising
agent, actually, that worked on this case?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. And do you recall approximately when it was you started
working on this case?
A. Back in '99, early '99, spring of '99.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HUGGINS - DIRECT - MOORE VOL III, 573
Q. And did you help execute a search warrant at the business
location of Landslide, Inc., here in Fort Worth on Seaman
Street?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Was that on September the 8th, 1999?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Can you sort of give us an idea of how that execution of
the warrant took place?
A. Well, we had, as we normally do, it's procedure that we
have an advanced meeting. Everybody involved with the search
met and we made plans as to when we would do the search and how
the search would be conducted, what would be the objective of
the search, and the routine, when we would go in, even some
signals if we were on our way and we had to stop.
Q. What was the last thing you said?
A. Even if we had started and needed to stop, we had certain
signals and certain plans before we entered the building.
Q. What time of day did you guys go out to Seaman Street?
A. It was early in the morning. I can't tell you the exact
time the first person got there. But we were there when they
opened and started doing business.
Q. And when you say "we," who are you referring to?
A. Well, all of the agents were in the area, as they were
waiting for a signal to begin.
Q. So y'all had help from FBI and Customs --
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HUGGINS - DIRECT - MOORE VOL III, 574
A. Yes.
Q. -- and some other agencies?
A. There was local there to patrol the perimeter and a
variety of federal agents.
Q. And then the folks that you had actually doing some of the
searching on the computers, were they cops?
A. No. We had hired some special investigators with special
expertise.
Q. So you had scientist-type people, computer nerds and
stuff.
A. Computer forensics personnel.
Q. Okay.
A. We had them from our national lab as well as from outside.
Q. Okay. So did y'all have to break down doors? How did it
take place that you went in the business?
A. We waited -- We had done surveillance on the business and
we knew that there -- there would be smoke breaks. And so we
waited until there was a group of employees outside taking a
smoke break and we approached the building and approached them
while they were outside the building and they let us in the
building.
Q. So y'all didn't have to go crashing in like you see on TV.
You just walked up?
A. No.
Q. By the way, when I said Landslide on Seaman Street, from
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HUGGINS - DIRECT - MOORE VOL III, 575
your investigation of the case, Agent Huggins -- or Inspector
Huggins, had Landslide previously been located somewhere else?
A. Yes. They were initially down closer to downtown by the
D/FW internet --
Q. Across from the courthouse?
A. Yes. I believe it's on Weatherford.
Q. Belknap?
A. Belknap/Weatherford.
Q. Okay. How long had they been out on Seaman Street,
approximately?
A. Just a few months.
Q. So, at any rate, you guys walk up to the smokers and they
let you in the business.
A. Yes.
Q. Explain to us what happened from there. What did you do?
A. Well, first of all, our objective, we had several
concerns. We needed to secure the building, and we were
concerned about employees having access to their computers. So
we wanted to get the employees away from their work station so
they couldn't hit any delete buttons or anything like that. We
wanted things just as they were when we went in. We had not
planned to make any arrests that day. It was a search warrant
to obtain information. We were going to -- our objective was
to identify the people that were there, if they were willing to
talk to us, conduct interviews, and we were not to detain
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HUGGINS - DIRECT - MOORE VOL III, 576
anybody that was not willing to stay. And, in fact, it's my
understanding some of the employees did leave without talking
to us.
Q. Okay. So you didn't go to arrest. You just wanted to
search and gain information.
A. Yes.
Q. And then sort through the information and take it from
there.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And what was going to -- y'all had assigned roles,
who was going to do what?
A. Yes. We had an idea about how many employees would be
there. There were different agents assigned to go to each of
the work stations, and they would be responsible for that work
station and those employees. And it was very organized, very
calm. It was executed very smoothly, and that was -- it was
well planned and it went as planned.
Q. So there was no wailing and yelling and screaming for
lawyers and that sort of thing?
A. No.
Q. Okay. What was going to be your role when you got there?
A. Kay Caldwell, who is a Customs agent, and myself, we were
assigned to identify Janice Reedy and interview her.
Q. So you had a female customs agent with you?
A. Yes.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HUGGINS - DIRECT - MOORE VOL III, 577
Q. Is there any particular reason why you chose a female
agent?
A. Well, we try to -- when we have females we try to assign a
female to be present for gender purposes, just like you would
try to have a Hispanic speaking -- if someone speaks French, we
like to have a Frenchman there to interpret what they say.
Q. Okay. And so did you indeed see Janice Lee Reedy at the
business?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you interview her?
A. Yes.
Q. In the presence of Agent Caldwell?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you see the woman in the courtroom today that you
interviewed?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Will you please point her out and describe her for us.
A. The lady at the end of the table with the pink sweater.
Q. And that's who you've identified as Janice Reedy?
A. Yes.
MS. MOORE: May the record reflect, Your Honor, he
has identified the defendant.
THE COURT: The record will so reflect.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Inspector Huggins, where did this interview begin?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HUGGINS - DIRECT - MOORE VOL III, 578
A. She was interviewed in her office at the business.
Q. Now, do you remember you guys did a little schematic, did
you, a little layout of the business?
A. Yes.
Q. Which one would have been her office?
A. Well, when you entered the building, you turn left, and
I'm not sure what that first room was but it kind of became a
snack room and then the next door to the left was her office.
Q. Was it Room M?
A. Excuse me?
Q. Was it Room M, like --
A. I don't remember the number.
Q. You don't remember that part? Okay.
And who was in this office with you as you interviewed
her?
A. Agent Caldwell and myself.
Q. There were not other employees?
A. No
Q. Just the three of you?
A. Right.
Q. What was the atmosphere like between you and the defendant
Janice Reedy?
A. The atmosphere was very cordial. It was -- She wasn't
glad to see us but she was willing to talk. We explained to
her that the first thing we wanted was personal history
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HUGGINS - DIRECT - MOORE VOL III, 579
information, which was again the objective of our search; and
then we wanted to talk to her if she was willing to talk with
us. And so we obtained the personal history information and
then began the interview.
Q. Did you place her under arrest?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did you at any time during that day did you place her
under arrest?
A. No, I did not.
Q. So she was not in custody when you were speaking with her?
A. No, she was not. She was informed that she could leave,
and in fact if I remember, during the course of the
conversation or somewhere during the process, she needed to be
excused and she was allowed to leave. She was allowed to meet
her husband in the parking lot when he arrived. In fact, she
even left the facility later on in the day, so she was not
arrested or detained.
Q. Did she take any smoke breaks or anything like that?
A. I believe she did. In fact, I remember her taking a
break. It might have been a smoke break instead of a personal
break.
Q. Okay. But, nevertheless, you told her she was free to
leave?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And was she willing to talk to you?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HUGGINS - DIRECT - MOORE VOL III, 580
A. Yes.
Q. And did she talk to you?
A. Yes, she did.
Q. You said one of the first things you asked her was some
personal information so you could get that down?
A. Yes.
Q. And what was that personal information that you asked her?
A. Well, we have a personal history form that the inspection
service uses. It's a routine form that we just go through a
process gaining a lot of personal information.
Q. Such as?
A. Such as maiden name, where she lives, what her phone
number is, what her social security number is, her driver's
license.
Q. Date of birth?
A. Date of birth.
Q. Did you ask her -- How old is she, by the way?
A. Thirty-two. I believe she was born in '68.
Q. Okay. And so after you got all the, you know, maiden
name and date of birth and driver's license stuff, was she
cooperative with you at that point?
A. Yes.
Q. In fact, did she remain cooperative throughout the
interview?
A. She was very cooperative. She answered questions without
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HUGGINS - DIRECT - MOORE VOL III, 581
hesitation, really, and was very willing.
Q. Okay. The tone of voice that you used with her or that --
Did Agent Caldwell participate in the interview as well?
A. Basically I asked the questions and Agent Caldwell took
the notes and prepared the --
Q. Okay. The tone of voice that you used with her, how would
you describe that?
A. Very similar as to today. In fact, if I could jump to the
end of the interview --
Q. Okay.
A. -- I did ask her some rather pointed questions regarding
her daughter, and she became emotional and began to cry and we
just stopped the interview. I mean, it was not a forceful
interview in any way. I was very considerate of, not only her
physical needs, but her emotional -- this was an emotional
subject.
Q. How were you dressed during this?
A. Casual, business casual. I did not have a suit and tie
on.
Q. Okay. No big raid jackets and that sort of thing?
A. Well, we did -- I don't remember if I had my raid jacket.
We have raid jackets. I could very well have had my raid
jacket on, but normally I take it off when I get in the
facility.
Q. Okay. So then tell us how the interview, after you got
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HUGGINS - DIRECT - MOORE VOL III, 582
through the preliminary stuff, what is it that you asked her?
A. Well, we just started in a general conversation as to how
the business operated and what her role was, what Janice's role
was, in the operation of the business, because, to be honest
with you, we weren't fully aware of her -- how involved she
might be, and that was one of the reasons for the search and
the interview.
Q. Okay. What did she tell you her role in the business was?
A. Well, her present role was to do the payroll and to
prepare the checks for the webmasters, and she used a personal
computer to record a lot of this information. It rolled up
into a god page, which is a term that they used to describe or
list their webmasters. And she also rolled up into a payday
page, because that's what she used to pay the webmasters and
how she knew how much to pay them.
Q. Okay. So the god pages were a list of -- She told you
this, that the god pages were a list of webmasters?
A. A list of the webmasters.
Q. And the payday pages was how much to pay the webmasters?
A. Yes.
Q. By the way, was there a computer in the room where you
were interviewing her?
A. Yes, there were two computers. There was a laptop and a
desktop computer.
Q. Did she say how long she had been working there?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HUGGINS - DIRECT - MOORE VOL III, 583
A. Yes. She started in January of '98. I think they were --
if I remember correctly, they were married in December of '97.
She started there in January of '98, so she had been there
about a year and a half or a little bit longer.
Q. Okay. Got married in December and started to work in
January of '98?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay, And did she -- What did she say about being
familiar with certain web sites?
A. Well, she explained that -- First of all, she acknowledged
that there were several issues that caught my ear as she was
explaining. She was aware that there were about 5,000 sites.
She was aware that -- and she told us that she had done almost
all of the jobs at one time in the business, such as payroll,
accounting, customer service. She was in customer service at
one time. She did chargebacks, I believe, for credit cards.
So she -- I mean, she was very familiar with the day-to-day
operations of the business. She was aware of the AVS process.
Q. Explain that. Explain what she said about how the
business was actually run.
A. She explained to us that the business began as an adult
verification, AVS process, and that it was started basically as
an outcross or an application of the -- she was familiar with
the Child Protection Act and said it was all part of that
process. And that it was started by Tom Reedy and that they
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HUGGINS - DIRECT - MOORE VOL III, 584
sold different levels of access for different time frames, and
it would depend on how much you wanted to pay as to how long
you would have access to sites.
There was also a KeyZ and an AVS, but the verification
process she explained was the same for both. The AVS was --
the way she described it was with a co-op venture where you
could purchase access to a variety of sites. Where KeyZ was a
site specific program where you purchased access to one
particular site.
Q. So if you were a customer of AVS and you paid money, you
would have access to multiple sites.
A. That's the co-op.
Q. Okay. Whereas if you are a customer of KeyZ and you
bought in, you paid money for one site and one site only.
A. Yes.
Q. And if you wanted to see another site, you would have to
pay more money for that.
A. If it was another KeyZ site.
Q. And she knew that?
A. Yes.
Q. And explained that to you?
A. Yes.
Q. And what did she say about the KeyZ aspect of that, that
site specific only aspect?
A. Well, that was a concept that Mr. Reedy had.
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HUGGINS - DIRECT - MOORE VOL III, 585
Q. She told you that Mr. Reedy came up with that idea?
A. Yes. And it was a very -- the webmasters liked it because
they would only sell access to one site as opposed to having to
post a variety of sites. And it was actually a little more
profitable.
Q. And what did she say about being familiar with the sites
that make money?
A. Well, she never did -- She did not acknowledge if the
sites that actually made money, whether they were KeyZ or AVS.
She said she did not know that, if the KeyZ site made more
money than the AVS site. She did explain that Tom, David Cruz,
other members could actually do some sortations and tell us
that.
But she explained that out of the 5,000 or so sites there
were about 200 or 250 sites that made money. And as a result
of that she explained that she wrote approximately 100 checks a
month and about 80 of those were to webmasters. She tried to
get her checks out on the 3rd of each month.
Q. On the 3rd of each month?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay.
A. They had a business plan.
Q. What did she say about whether or not her husband had a
role in signing the checks?
A. Yes. Well, she would write the checks and, in fact, she
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HUGGINS - DIRECT - MOORE VOL III, 586
used a software program for this called QuickBooks, which
actually prepares checks and she would take -- She told me that
a lot of times that Tom Reedy would work from the house and she
would take checks home in the evenings for Tom to sign and then
she would bring them back and disburse them the following day.
And she said that they were very careful to not let their
daughter Alicia see these checks or actually be involved in
anything, and a lot of this work was done after she went to
bed.
Q. How old is Alicia?
A. Nine or ten; in that age range.
Q. Okay. The only child?
A. That's all I'm aware of.
Q. Her child?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. So she would take work home and they were careful
not to let the kid see it.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. What about wire transfers?
A. Well, she also prepared the wire transfers to some of the
webmasters. One of the choices they had was to how they wanted
to be paid, and they could be paid by mailing them a check or
sending them a wire transfer. Then you have to provide the
bank and the bank number, et cetera. But she also initiated
the wire transfers. The checks were mailed both nationally and
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HUGGINS - DIRECT - MOORE VOL III, 587
internationally along with the wire transfers. They were both
local and international.
Q. Okay. And going back to Mr. Reedy working at home and
them being careful not to let the kid see it, what did she say
was the procedure there to keep the child from seeing?
A. Well, what she told me is they did most of this after the
child went to bed. They would make sure. In fact, she went on
and at the end of the interview -- toward the end of the
interview she even made the comment that they had tried to sell
the business and one of the reasons she felt the business
needed to be sold was because she wasn't sure what their
daughter would tell her friends that her parents did for a
living so they were trying to sell the business and move on to
something different.
Q. Did she say Mr. Reedy programmed a lot on the computer at
night?
A. Yes. Most of his work she said was done at night, and she
also mentioned to me that as customer complaints came in -- I
don't know if she mentioned this or Tom mentioned it, but he
received copies of customer complaints and it was my
understanding that that would be done at night.
Q. Okay. Now, you say that the payday pages was how much to
pay the webmaster? That's how she kept track of that?
A. Yes.
Q. And then what would she do, she would enter this into the
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HUGGINS - DIRECT - MOORE VOL III, 588
QuickBooks?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Okay. And the QuickBooks was maintained there on the
computer?
A. Yes.
Q. At the business at Landslide?
A. (Nods head.)
Q. Did she know how a customer actually signed up? Did she
know the process for a subscriber to gain access to a web site?
A. Yes, she did. She understood the process of a customer
giving their credit card, that the credit card was approved,
and that the credit card -- Following that, there was a -
there was a code that Landslide provided each of the customers.
Q. Is that a user name?
A. Yeah, user name that included the initials of the customer
plus random numbers, and then the actual password was provided
by the customer.
Q. And this is all stuff that she told you on the internal
workings of the business.
A. Yes.
Q. Did it appear to you that she was in command of full
knowledge of how that business operated?
MR. HEISKELL: Excuse me. We're going to object to
that as speculation, "full command and full knowledge." We've
only talked about a certain aspect of this business, that is,
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HUGGINS - DIRECT - MOORE VOL III, 589
the financial.
THE COURT: I think it is admissible as his state of
mind, so I overrule the objection.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. You may answer.
A. Yes. She was very aware of the overall day-to-day
long-term -- In fact, she explained that some of the jobs that
Tom's brother was involved with in creating things. She
explained how they were trying to get into another type of
credit card certification business. She explained that they at
one time had tried to sell stock shares in their business.
Those are all indications to me that she was very much involved
with the operation.
Q. And what about the roles that she had -- the jobs that she
had performed at Landslide, other than just accounting or
paying webmasters?
A. Well, she was aware that the customer service reps were
the ones that actually received complaints from the customers.
Q. Had she ever been a customer service rep?
A. She said she had been. She didn't tell me for how long,
but, yes, she had been a customer service rep.
Q. Okay. And so I interrupted you. I'm sorry. You were
about to say she was aware of customer service reps?
A. And when I would ask her if she was aware of the content
of any of the sites, she would say that the customer service
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HUGGINS - DIRECT - MOORE VOL III, 590
reps would be the one that would be more aware because they
would actually, once they received a complaint, they would go
into the site and open it up and begin to offer corrections or
alternatives. She was aware of the name of several of the
sites.
Q. Specifically?
A. Well, she was aware of a site called Pussies4u, which Tom
had created and she said was a KeyZ site that was a site that
was used when they had a customer complaint and that they
couldn't resolve it they would offer that as an alternative.
Q. Okay.
A. She was aware of another site called -- I believe it was
called Fucking Little Kids. But all of these were on -- all of
these different sites are listed on these payday pages and
these webmasters that -- and the names of these sites that
these webmasters post that were in her QuickBooks.
Q. And she told you she was aware of those?
A. Yes.
Q. And was she aware that the customer had to go through
Landslide to get to those?
A. Yes, she was.
Q. Okay. Now, when you went there that day, give us some
idea of how many employees were there and kind of how it was
divided.
A. Well, I believe there were about 12 or 14 employees that
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HUGGINS - DIRECT - MOORE VOL III, 591
were there. As I said, we had two agents assigned to each
employee, and then we had our forensics specialist assigned to
the primary computers that were in the facility. And most of
the employees were taken to a conference room until their
computers were -- until pictures were taken and the building
was secured, the computers were secured and then the interviews
began.
Q. Did Thomas Reedy's brother Jon Reedy work for Landslide?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Was his daddy on the payroll, too?
A. Was his daddy?
Q. On the payroll. Do you remember a Forrest Reedy being on
the payroll?
A. I don't know if he was on the payroll. I remember seeing
checks to Forrest Reedy, but I'm not sure -- I don't know if he
was actually an employee.
Q. Okay. You don't know if he actually worked. Was Thomas
Hughes an employee?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. What was supposed to be his role?
A. Well, he was their technical computer programmer. In
fact, Janice explained that Thomas Hughes had been involved
with the business almost initially, and he was aware of all of
the -- how the programs were set up, what type of systems were
being used. He was the computer programmer that did a lot of
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HUGGINS - DIRECT - MOORE VOL III, 592
work and worked very closely with Mr. Reedy.
Q. With Mr. Reedy. Where was Thomas Hughes' office?
A. I don't know the letter or the number. He also visited an
office in Dallas, along with Jon sometimes.
Q. And is that Jon, Jon Reedy?
A. Jon Reedy, yes.
Q. Thomas Reedy's brother?
A. Right.
Q. Okay. Do you recall an employee named David Cruz?
A. Yes. David was an integral part of their operation as
well. There was another --
Q. Was he in customer service?
A. He was a customer service rep. I believe he was more or
less identified as the primary customer service rep. There was
also a girl by the name of Jessica that was a customer service
rep. And --
Q. And Dustin Van Huss?
A. Dustin, Cruz, and Jessica were the three primary customer
service reps on the day we were there.
Q. Okay. And then there were other employees there as well?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know what their role was?
A. Well, again, they were trying to venture out and develop
new businesses. I know there was a receptionist, one of the
employees was a receptionist. I don't know all of their
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HUGGINS - DIRECT - MOORE VOL III, 593
integral responsibilities.
Q. Twelve or 14 or so of them there.
A. Right.
Q. And can you tell us about how long you visited with Janice
Reedy there at the business?
A. Probably about an hour, hour and a half.
Q. Okay. And there was a break in between that time. You
said she went out and greeted her husband?
A. Yes, and she took a smoke. I remember she did take a
smoke.
Q. Okay. Was Mr. Thomas Reedy not at the business --
A. No, he was not there.
Q. -- when you first got there?
A. He was not there when we first arrived.
Q. But he showed up sometime later.
A. Yes.
Q. Now, at some point did she leave the business?
A. Yes, she did. I think she went home later on that
afternoon.
Q. Did y'all follow her?
A. No. She went home -- Well, I think she might have
followed Joe Ullmann, the FBI agent, or went with him or
followed him. I'm not sure. I didn't -- I mean, she was,
again, she was not under any type of custody or arrest. We
talked and when we got through we were through talking and she
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had access to the facility.
Q. Did you see her again later that day back at the house?
A. I didn't go to the house.
Q. Okay. You didn't go out there with the search warrants
for the computers?
A. No.
Q. Where did you go after leaving the business on Seaman
Street?
A. I don't know where we rallied. We probably went back to
the office.
Q. Well, did you go to Dallas at some point?
A. After the Seaman Street, we obtained the necessary
probable cause to go serve a warrant in Dallas. We were
working with Bob and we contacted you and got another search
warrant that night and we did serve it in Dallas, and it was
probably 12:30 or 1:00 o'clock before the day ended the next
morning.
Q. A long day.
A. Right.
Q. Nobody was arrested?
A. Nobody was arrested.
Q. Okay. And then would the procedure at that point be to
start searching the computers that were seized and analyzing
the information?
A. Yes. Of course, the first thing, the most important
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HUGGINS - DIRECT - MOORE VOL III, 595
thing, we did a lot of tagging, a lot of definitions,
descriptions, logging, filling out evidence tags, all of that
was done during the process, during the day, which took a lot
of time.
Q. Maintaining the integrity of the evidence that you seized?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you, Inspector Huggins, sometime after that have an
opportunity to participate in an interview of Thomas Reedy?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And would that have been on September the 13th of 1999?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Now, the search warrant was conducted when? September the
8th, 1999?
A. September the 8th.
Q. And where was the interview of Thomas Reedy conducted?
A. At your office, the office of the U.S. Attorney here in
Fort Worth.
Q. You never did interview Janice Reedy again after that one
day?
A. No, I did not.
Q. So on the 13th, then, you interviewed Thomas Reedy?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And can you tell us who was present at that interview?
A. There were two postal inspectors, FBI, Customs, Dallas
police was there. Steve Nelson was there, along with Ron
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HUGGINS - DIRECT - MOORE VOL III, 596
Eddins and Terri Moore. And Tom was accompanied by Richard
Anderson.
Q. Who is he?
A. Richard Anderson was the attorney representing the
Landslide Corporation, and Reed Prospere was an attorney that
Tom had hired to represent himself. He was Tom's attorney.
Q. So he came up there with his lawyers.
A. Yes, two.
Q. Two of them. And we sat down and there was an interview.
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Was Mr. Thomas Reedy in custody?
A. No, he wasn't, but he was informed at that interview that
he was a target in this investigation.
Q. Okay. So he was told at that point he was a target?
A. And he was advised of his constitutional rights according
to Miranda.
Q. Okay. So he was read his rights?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And he acknowledged he understood those?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And he went ahead with the interview anyway?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Can you tell us what he said?
A. Well, again, we had asked him about the operation of the
business again. It seems simple now, but we were still putting
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HUGGINS - DIRECT - MOORE VOL III, 597
pieces together about who did what and who knew what and how
the business operated. He again explained the AVS system and
the KeyZ system. He again explained --
Q. How did he explain that?
A. That AVS was basically, again, a co-op system, an adult
verification procedure, that allowed the customer access to a
variety of sites where the KeyZ -
Q. For one payment.
A. For one payment.
Q. Okay. And whereas KeyZ?
A. And KeyZ was a site specific, a verification system, that
used the same procedure and -- but was only good for one site.
Q. So he gave you the same explanation on that as Janice did?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Was he asked point blank whether or not he knew there was
child pornography?
A. Yes, he was asked the question what was the percentage of
child pornography that was on -- that he was responsible for on
his system, and he responded initially that it was about 30
percent. Now, one of the figures that was a little bit
different is that he acknowledged that they had a total of
about 5700 different sites, whereas Janice had only
acknowledged 5,000.
Later on in the conversation he said, well, I've thought
and it's -- the child pornography is possibly 30 or 40 percent
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HUGGINS - DIRECT - MOORE VOL III, 598
of my business. It's not the number of sites he had, it was
the amount of what percentage of your business, of your money,
is child pornography sites, and that was his response.
Q. So 30 to 40 percent --
A. Yes.
Q. -- of his money came from child pornography from his own
mouth.
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Was he asked point blank whether or not his wife knew that
there was child pornography?
A. Yes, he did, and he said that Janice knew that the
business included child pornography.
Q. And was he asked about whether his brother and Thomas
Hughes knew that they were making money off of child
pornography?
A. Yes, both of those names were mentioned.
Q. And what did he say?
A. They both know.
Q. What did he say about how much money was sent out on a
wire transfer per month compared to how much was sent out on
checks?
A. I don't remember the difference in wire transfer and
checks.
Q. Do you have a report of that interview in front of you on
the September 13th interview? You might want to refresh your
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HUGGINS - DIRECT - MOORE VOL III, 599
memory.
A. Let me look and see here. A similar amount.
Q. So a similar amount.
Okay. And what did he say about who developed ClicZ?
A. It was another program developed by Tom Reedy.
Q. Go to page 5 of your report of interview, the last big
paragraph.
A. There it is, the last page.
Q. What did he -- Refresh your memory.
A. Okay. Yes. There were approximately 5700 sites. He
estimated that 30 to 40 had child pornography. There were
about 40 international wire transfers. He stated the company
sent out approximately 500,000 in wire transfers each month.
Q. 500 grand each month?
A. Yes.
Q. And how about checks?
A. 140,000 in checks.
Q. Each month in checks?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Now, did you just say that he said he developed
ClicZ?
A. Yes.
Q. Who did he say developed adult classifieds?
A. He developed adult classifieds.
Q. Who did he say developed AVS?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HUGGINS - DIRECT - MOORE VOL III, 600
A. He developed AVS.
Q. Who did he say developed KeyZ?
A. He developed KeyZ.
Q. Okay. And what was ClicZ supposed to do when it got
online?
A. I believe C1icZ was associated with the classifieds and
would allow you to post a classified ad.
Q. All right. Would it require a code?
A. No, no codes, not for classifieds.
Q. Who did he say were the best webmasters?
A. The foreign webmasters, the child pornography webmasters,
were making more money.
Q. Okay. Who did he say developed P4U?
A. He developed P4U as an alternative, as I mentioned.
Q. As a what?
A. An alternative, when they were having problems with other
KeyZ sites.
Q. What would they do if they were having problems with these
other sites?
A. Well, if they couldn't remedy the problem initially, they
would just offer them access to P4U.
Q. They'd switch them instead of losing them?
A. Yes.
Q. When did he say he developed KeyZ?
A. The year?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HUGGINS - DIRECT - MOORE VOL III, 601
Q. Well, approximately how many months after he developed -
or AVS was rolling?
A. Let me check. I know he developed KeyZ as -- or he told
us he developed KeyZ at the request of the webmasters. Let's
see exactly when.
Q. Look on page 2, the third paragraph.
A. That's right, approximately six months. Mr. Reedy was
asked how long KeyZ had been in operation. He recalled that
AVS became operational in 1996 and approximately six months
later he developed KeyZ.
Q. Did he say anything about people using AVS sites to
promote KeyZ sites?
A. Yes. They would advertise on both to promote their web
sites. They could advertise AVS on KeyZ and KeyZ on AVS.
Q. Okay. And what did he say about viewing child pornography
himself?
A. Well, he said that the main time -- the main reason he
would look at the sites would be based on a complaint, and once
they got a complaint then at that time is when they would open
the sites up and he would view what was there. As he received
some complaints about child pornography, he would just tell
them to contact their local and he would just leave the site
running.
Q. And did he get complaints forwarded to him from the
customer service people, David, Dustin, and Jessica?
A. Yes. It's my understanding what he was doing late
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HUGGINS - CROSS - BALL VOL III, 602
night at home, was reviewing those customer service complaints
that were forwarded to his home.
Q. What did he say about whether or not he knew that the
child porn was on the increase in his business?
A. Yes. He knew it was growing and he knew that that's where
most of his money was coming from.
MS. MOORE: I'll pass the witness.
THE COURT: Cross?
MR. BALL: Thank you, Your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. BALL:
Q. Inspector Huggins, you've been referring to a document
occasionally. Is that a memorandum of interview that you've
been discussing with the jury?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. All right. Dated September 13th --
A. Yes, it is.
Q. -- of 1999; is that correct, sir?
A. That's correct.
Q. All right. And that was several days after the search
warrants were executed that you've told us about, I think on
the 8th; is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. All right. And do you recall when that meeting began?
A. It began about 12:04.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HUGGINS - CROSS - BALL VOL III, 603
Q. All right. And about how long did that meeting last
total?
A. I don't have a time; probably lasted about an hour and a
half, two hours.
Q. All right. In fact, on the middle of the third page was
there an hour and 20 minute lunch break and then the interview
was resumed?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And present at that meeting were a number of law
enforcement agents, members of the U.S. Attorney's Office, and
Mr. Reedy and two attorneys that had been employed to assist
him and Landslide; is that right?
A. Correct.
Q. And Mr. Reedy agreed to be interviewed, did he not?
A. He did.
Q. If he had said, "I don't want to talk to you. I'm walking
out," he would have been permitted to do that, would he not?
A. Yes, he would.
Q. And you had asked him a question about his business and
what was going on at Landslide and he provided you with answers
and responses; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Sometimes he was able to quickly answer and sometimes he
would have to stop and think a minute to provide you with an
answer. Is that true, sir?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HUGGINS - CROSS - BALL VOL III, 604
A. Sure.
Q. And one of the first things he discussed with you was the
purpose of AVS and KeyZ; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. He referred to some legislation designed to try to protect
the children from gaining access to adult material. And he
said that was one of the purposes; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Did Mr. Reedy also tell you that he did not review the
sites that used his systems?
A. He did review the sites when he received complaints.
Q. All right. Well, what I'm referring to is when the people
signed up, when webmasters wanted to use AVS or KeyZ, Mr. Reedy
told you he didn't review the sites when they would sign up,
correct, sir?
A. Correct.
Q. All right. And he said he had approximately 5700 sites on
-- was that on both KeyZ and AVS?
A. That's the way I understood it, yes.
Q. All right. Not all of them made money?
A. That's correct.
Q. Did he also discuss other business ventures that Landslide
and he were involved in?
A. Briefly. Again, he talked about trying to have a credit
card verification system.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HUGGINS - CROSS - BALL VOL III, 605
Q. All right.
A. We didn't go into detail with that.
Q. Something not in the adult entertainment industry.
Something different?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Did he discuss attempting to sell KeyZ and
AVS, that portion of his business?
A. Yes. He mentioned that there were stocks along with
Janice, that they were -- In fact, they showed us some stocks,
or we saw some stock.
Q. Did he mention to you an effort to try to create what's
called an IPO, initial public offering, we offer to sell a
company on the --
A. He might have. We didn't ask questions about that.
Q. All right. He told you that at some point he began to
notice an increase in child pornography using his system; is
that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. Did he describe to you how webmasters get on to his
system?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And essentially did his description
essentially boil down to a lot of it was just automatic, it was
automated through computer processing; is that right?
A. It was a menu process, yes.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HUGGINS - CROSS - BALL VOL III, 606
Q. Okay. A webmaster could go in and sign up and never talk
to Mr. Reedy the way he described; is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. And could go in and make changes without having any
discussions with anybody at Landslide.
A. That's correct.
Q. It's automatic by using computers and the internet,
correct?
A. Yeah, there were certain things like passwords, wire
transfer information, and things like that that would have to
be verified if it was going to be changed.
Q. All right. You said from time to time they got customer
complaints about a variety of things, including people
complaining that a site might have improper content on it,
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And he designed a site called -- I think called Pussies4u,
was a site that he created; is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. And in the interview he told you that when they got such
complaints, they would try to direct those people over to this
site he had created, this Pussies4u site.
A. Rather than lose them, and if they couldn't correct the
problem then they would recommend that site.
Q. All right. And did he describe for you the content of
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HUGGINS - CROSS - BALL VOL III, 607
Pussies4u being adults and not children oriented?
A. That's correct.
Q. Did he ever tell you that he hosted any child oriented
site?
A. No.
Q. Or that he posted any child oriented pictures on the
internet?
A, No.
Q. Did he give you a response in regard to inquiries from
customers complaining about content on sites perhaps being
child oriented, did he tell you that their typical response was
to advise the people to contact their local police or law
enforcement authorities; is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. That that's where they thought the responsibility -- I
mean, Mr. Reedy told you that's where they thought the
responsibility lied, was for the law enforcement people to go
handle that; is that right?
A. I'm sorry. I didn't understand your question.
Q. Well, with regard to people complaining, customers
complaining, about child pornography content, Mr. Reedy told
you that he thought that was not his responsibility; that was
the responsibility of law enforcement folks.
A. No. He just told the people to make a complaint with your
local law enforcement. I don't know -- That was it. That's
U.S, DISTRICT COURT
HUGGINS - CROSS - BALL VOL III, 608
what he said. He didn't go into great detail as to why he said
that or who he said was responsible.
Q. Well, he didn't tell you he felt that he was responsible
to review all these 5700 sites and what's on them. He never
made that statement, did he, sir?
A. No.
Q. Did he also discuss with you the -- that he in fact had
had contact with a local law enforcement agent on at least one
child pornography type complaint?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he identify a special agent assigned with the local
FBI office by the name of Frank Super?
A. Yes.
Q. He told you that he had a discussion with Agent Super some
-- I believe your memorandum indicates approximately a year
prior to the interview you're conducting.
A. Yes.
Q. Is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. Prior to his informing you of that, were you aware that
Agent Super had had any investigation concerning Landslide or
child pornography sites that had gone through Landslide prior
to him mentioning it?
A. I was not aware.
Q. All right. And I gather you were not a party to the
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HUGGINS - CROSS - BALL VOL III, 609
discussions between Mr. Reedy and the FBI Agent Super, correct?
A. That's correct, I was not a party.
Q. In fact, is there a special agent by the name of Frank
Super assigned here to the local FBI Fort Worth office?
A. I've never met him. I've been told there is.
Q. All right. And did Mr. Reedy tell you that in his
discussion with Agent Super that he had offered to assist with
some kind of a sting operation?
A. He made that offer to us, also.
Q. All right. In other words, assist in identifying or
apprehending webmasters or people that like to go look at this
child pornography type material, correct?
A. His offer focused more on the webmasters than the
customers.
Q. All right. Did he tell you that with the exception of an
individual by the name of Fred Hunter in Austin, Texas, he had
not actually met any of the webmasters that used his service?
A. That's correct. We were very interested if he could
identify if he saw one, and he was not able to do that.
Q. All right. Now, you indicated that he said something
about the percentage -- He was asked about the percentage of
sites using his service that might have child-type content on
it. Do you recall that inquiry?
A. Yes.
Q. And I think you initially said he said something like --
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HUGGINS - CROSS - BALL VOL III, 610
there was a percentage I believe you said, and I thought I
understood you to say 30 percent, or something?
A. Initially 30, and then he said about 40 percent of the
sites were making money, and then he said about 30 was an
estimate off the top of his head.
Q. Well, in fact, on the last page of your memorandum of
interview he estimated out of the 5700 sites used by AVS and
KeyZ, about 30 to 40, 30 to 40 have child pornography. That's
what he told you, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. I believe you answered a question directed to you by the
prosecutor just a moment ago was he asked who his best
customers -- what webmasters were his best customers. Do you
recall that, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. If you'll look at page 3 of your memorandum of interview
-- and, incidentally, this memorandum of interview was created,
I gather, shortly after the time of the interview?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. When the matters at hand were freshest in
one's memory?
A. Yes.
Q. And about midway down here, in fact, what he told you
about which webmasters are his best customers, he said the best
webmasters are those they sent international wire transfers to
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HUGGINS - CROSS - BALL VOL III, 611
for payment. That's what he said, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. That's the complete sentence with regard to his answer to
that question, is it not?
A. Yes.
Q. And the meeting concluded -- Did the meeting conclude on
any part of the government's part or Mr. Reedy's part? Was it
concluded because of anybody's request that it end?
A. No. It was -- The interview ended at his request, our
request, it was just the end of the interview.
Q. Okay. It had kind of run its course; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And he certainly readily answered your
questions and the questions posed to him by other law
enforcement agents, did he not?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. In fact, one of the last things that he said at the
interview was that his company had planned to become an ISP.
They planned to host sites but not child pornography. That was
one of the comments he made toward the end of the interview,
correct, sir?
A. That's correct.
MR. BALL: I believe that's all. Thank you, sir.
THE COURT: Mr. Heiskell.
MR. HEISKELL: No questions.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HUGGINS - REDIRECT - MOORE VOL III, 612
MS. MOORE: I just have one more redirect, Your
Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Inspector Huggins, at the time either Janice or Thomas
Reedy were interviewed, had there been any kind of analysis
done on all the information that was gathered from both the
business and the home through searches?
A. Yes. Some preliminary analysis.
Q. At the time Janice was interviewed there had been an
analysis done? It's the day you went to execute the search
warrant.
A. Yeah, we had not done an analysis until we did the search
warrant.
Q. So that was on the 8th of September. So on the 13th of
September during his interview had Mr. Ritcheson and the other
inspectors that were searching these computers, had they
completed their analysis?
A. No, they hadn't.
Q. Were you in command at this interview of all the knowledge
that you know today?
A. I know more today than I did then.
Q. You do?
A. Yes.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
HUGGINS - REDIRECT - MOORE VOL III, 613
Q. Okay. So it was just a few days, really, after the
warrants were executed.
A. Yes.
Q. Did it take months for Inspector Ritcheson to actually go
through and analyze the data that was on the computer?
MR. HEISKELL: Your Honor, we'd object. This is far
beyond the scope of cross.
THE COURT: It does seem so.
MS. MOORE: Okay. That's fine. That's all I have.
THE COURT: You may step down, sir. Thank you.
All right. We'll break for today and ask you to remember
all of the instructions that I've previously given you about
not discussing the case among yourselves or with anyone else,
at home or otherwise, and to avoid all media coverage of the
trial. Do any of you have any questions?
(No response.)
THE COURT: All right. Accommodations and parking
still okay? All right. Good. We'll see you in the morning,
please, at 9:00, try to get started at 9:00. Sorry we were a
little late this morning. See you then.
(Jury out, 5:50 p.m.)
THE COURT: I have a Reed Prospere and Richard
Anderson on your witness list. Do you expect to call them?
MS. MOORE: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: How are you doing? Are you on target?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
MS. MOORE: Yes, sir. I gave -- Let me see.
In the morning we've got Postal Inspector Don Smiddy.
Basically, you know, he collected some records out at Landslide
that Rex Rector ended up relying on. So that should be fast.
We then have David Cruz, an employee, and he might take a
little while. Rex Rector for the forfeiture count won't take
long, and then Agent Super and Sharon Girling. So I can't
imagine -- I mean, those are not really long witnesses except
for David Cruz might take a little while.
THE COURT: It's possible you'll complete your case
in chief tomorrow?
MS. MOORE: Definitely, yes. That's my plan.
MR. BALL: May I inquire, was Donna Kibbie on that
list?
MS. MOORE: I've got Donna Kibbie for rebuttal,
depending on what happens, and some other people for rebuttal
depending on what happens.
MR. BALL: Okay.
THE COURT: And so what would be the earliest time
you think the defendants ought to be ready to present their
case in chief?
MS. MOORE: Well, I think they ought to have their
people here by noon. I mean, we've sure had ours here waiting
around, and I would think Don Smiddy won't take long. But I
can't see really finishing before about 11:30 or 12:00 or so.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
THE COURT: All right. If you'll have your people
ready by noon, then.
MR. HEISKELL: Also, bear in mind, Your Honor, we
will have -- it won't take that long, is a motion under Rule 29
after the government rests.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. HEISKELL: Can I approach you for a minute about
something else?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
(Off-record discussion with Court and Mr. Heiskell:-)
(End of proceedings for the day, 5:53 p.m.)
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
censored - names have been overwritten by UKLR to protect identities
VOL IV, 616
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS
FORT WORTH DIVISION
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
. CRIMINAL ACTION NO.
. 4:00-CR-054-Y
VS.
.
.
THOMAS REEDY (1)
. November 30, 2000
JANICE REEDY (2)
. 9:05 a.m.
LANDSLIDE, INC. (3)
.
VOLUME IV
TRIAL TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
BEFORE THE HONORABLE TERRY R. MEANS
UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE, and a jury.
APPEARANCES:
For the United States:
Ms. Terri M. Moore
Mr. Ronald C.H. Eddins
Assistant United States Attorneys
801 Cherry Street, Suite 1700
Fort Worth, Texas 76102
(817) 252-5200
For Defendant Thomas
Mr. Wes Ball
Reedy and Landslide, Inc.:
Ball & Hase
4025 Woodland Park Boulevard
Suite 100
Arlington, Texas 76013
(817) 860-5000
For Defendant Janice Reedy:
Mr. Michael P. Heiskell
Johnson, Vaughn & Heiskell
600 Texas Street, Second Floor
Fort Worth, Texas 76102-4612
(817) 877-5321
Official Court Reporter:
Eileen M. Brewer
501 West Tenth Street
Fort Worth, Texas 76102-3637
(817) 334-0104
Proceedings recorded by mechanical stenography,
transcript
produced by computer-aided transcription.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL IV, 617
I N D E X
GOVERNMENT'S DIRECT EVIDENCE
Voir
Direct Cross Redirect Recross Dire Court
WITNESSES:
Don Smiddy 620
623
624
Rex Rector
627 635
Sharon Girling 644
--
GOVERNMENT RESTS
652
MOTION: MR. BALL
652 DENIED 653
MOTION: MR. HEISKELL 653
DENIED 655
DEFENDANT THOMAS REEDY AND
LANDSLIDE, INCORPORATED'S DIRECT EVIDENCE
Voir
Direct Cross Redirect Recross Dire Court
WITNESSES:
Donna Kibbie 657
665
Frank Super 667
679
Catrina Day 684
695
Patrick O'Leary 701 729
747
DEFENDANT THOMAS REEDY
AND LANDSLIDE, INC. RESTS
748
DEFENDANT JANICE REEDY'S DIRECT
EVIDENCE
Voir
Direct Cross Redirect Recross Dire Court
WITNESSES:
Janice Reedy 754
789 821
DEFENDANT JANICE REEDY RESTS
826
GOVERNMENT CLOSES
826
DEFENDANT THOMAS REEDY AND
LANDSLIDE, INC.,CLOSES
827
DEFENDANT JANICE REEDY CLOSES 827
MOTION: MR. HEISKELL 831
DENIED 831
MOTION: MR. BALL
831 DENIED 831
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL IV, 618
I N D E X
GOVERNMENT'S DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE
No.
Description
Offered Admitted
DS-1 Payday
Documents, October 1998 622
622
DS-2 Payday
Documents, November 1998 622
622
DS-3 Payday
Documents, December 1998 622
622
DS-4 Payday
Documents, January 1999 622
622
DS-5 Payday
Documents, February 1999 622
622
DS-6.1 Payday Documents,
March 1999 622
622
thru
DS-6.3
DS-7.1 Payday Documents,
April 1999 622
622
thru
DS-7.7
DS-8.1 Payday Documents,
May 1999 622
622
thru
DS-8.10
DS-9.1 Payday Documents,
June 1999 622
622
thru
DS-9.10
DS-10.1 Payday Documents, July
1999 622
622
thru
DS-10.10
DS-11 Payday
Documents, A1 Webmasters 622
622
DS-12 Original
Business Check
622 622
SG-1 Family Photo 647 647
Summary 1
Income From Sales of Web Site 629
630
Access
Summary 2 AVS Versus KeyZ Web Site Sales
631 631
Summary 3 Proceeds From Indicted Web Sites
633 634
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL IV, 619
I N D E X
DEFENDANT'S DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE
No.
Description
Offered Admitted
DX-1
Chargeback Ratio Report
779 779
DX-2
Chargeback Ratio Report
780 780
DX-3 Payday
Report
784 785
DX-4 Adult
Check Signup
783 783
DX-5 Ad to
Sell Business
784 785
DX-6 Purchase
Offer
785 786
DX-7 Business
Plan
787 787
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SMIDDY - DIRECT - MOORE VOL IV, 620
P R 0 C E E D I N G S,
THE COURT: The government may call its next witness.
MS. MOORE: We'll call Don Smiddy.
THE COURT: Mr. Smiddy, were you previously sworn?
MR. SMIDDY: No, sir.
THE COURT: Please raise your right hand.
(The witness is sworn.)
THE COURT: You may be seated, sir.
DONALD SMIDDY,
having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Will you state your name, please, sir.
A. My name is Donald Smiddy.
Q. And how do you spell your last name?
A. S-M-I-D-D-Y.
Q. How are you employed, Mr. Smiddy?
A. I'm a United States Postal Inspector.
Q. And how long have you been a postal inspector?
A. Since 1991.
Q. Were you working as a postal inspector on September the
8th of 1999?
A, Yes, I was.
Q. Did you aid other agents in executing a search warrant on
Seaman Street here in Fort Worth, Texas?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SMIDDY - DIRECT - MOORE VOL IV, 621
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What was your job in executing that search warrant on that
day?
A. I was designated to be the custodian of evidence for the
documentary evidence that we were looking for.
Q. Now, were you the custodian of the computer equipment?
A. No.
Q. Okay. So just for hard copies, papers and whatnot, that
was found there.
A. That's correct, yes.
Q. Before coming to court today, Inspector Smiddy, did you
have a chance to go through the exhibits, some of which that we
are going to offer here today?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And are those exhibits that you in fact collected as the
records custodian?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. Now, you've got a binder up there in front of you. Did
you previously go through that binder as well?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Would you look at Government's Exhibit DS-1 through DS-5.
You've actually looked at it before coming in here, haven't
you?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. And DS-6.1 through DS-6.3, DS-7.1 through 7.7, DS-8.1
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SMIDDY - DIRECT - MOORE VOL IV, 622
through 8.10, 9.1 through 9.10, 10.1 through 10.10, DS-11 and
DS-12. Are those all documents that you collected pursuant to
the search warrant on that date?
A. Yes, they are.
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, I would offer those exhibits,
and I can go back over them.
MR. BALL: Your Honor, same objection as to the other
items that were gathered as a result of search warrants.
THE COURT: All right. Are they all the exhibits
that start with DS?
MS. MOORE: They're in order, yes, sir.
THE COURT: So you've now offered all of the exhibits
beginning with the letters "DS"; is that correct?
MS. MOORE: Let me just double-check real quick.
That is correct, Your Honor.
THE COURT: They're admitted. The objections are
overruled.
MS. MOORE: May I have permission to publish DS-1?
THE COURT: Granted.
MS. MOORE: Just DS-1 at this point.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Are these basically financial records that you collected?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. Okay. And is DS-1 pretty much representative of what was
known as the payday records?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SMIDDY - CROSS - BALL VOL IV, 623
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And is that representative of all the other
exhibits through DS-11?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay.
MS. MOORE: May I show DS-12?
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. And can you describe for us what DS-12 is.
A. Yes. This is a check, among others, that we seized from
the business Landslide, Incorporated, written on July 8th of
'99, to Beck Imports of Texas in the amount of $148,577.55.
Q. And the other documents, DS-1 through DS-11, are all those
financial records; is that right?
A. That's correct.
MS. MOORE: Pass the witness.
THE COURT: Will there be cross?
MR. BALL: Yes, Your Honor, briefly.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. BALL:
Q. Inspector Smiddy, the exhibits admitted under the
alphabetical designation DS, where were they physically
located?
A. We retrieved them from Ms. Reedy's office at the Seaman
Street business of Landslide, Incorporated.
Q. All right. Were they on a computer, or did they appear as
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SMIDDY - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL IV, 624
hard copy paper?
A. They were hard copies just as you see them here.
Q. Were they in a drawer? Setting on top of a piece of
furniture? Where were they?
A. I believe they were in envelopes designated by month and
in a box.
Q. In a box?
A. I think so, yes.
Q. Was the box sitting on the floor?
A. I believe it was in a little cubby area inside of the
office.
Q. All right. Were there quite a number of other items,
documents and so forth, in that office?
A. Yes.
Q. And a computer or computers in the office?
A. There may have been a PC, but I was only dealing with the
physical evidence. I don't really recall.
MR. BALL: That's all. Thank you, sir.
MR. HEISKELL: I have a couple of questions.
THE COURT: Mr. Heiskell.
MR. HEISKELL: Thank you, Your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. Inspector Smiddy, a number of the documents that you found
in Ms. Reedy's office -- Well, obviously all of the documents
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SMIDDY - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL IV, 625
were of a financial nature, is that correct, that you collected
and presented here today?
A. Here today, yes.
Q. And you have those DS documents in front of you as well,
the hard copies?
A. I'm sorry. I didn't hear you.
Q. Do you have the copies in front of you?
A. I think I have the originals, yes.
Q. Would you look at DS, for instance -- Just a second. I
apologize. A number of these documents have AVS signup with
the payday records. Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you know what AVS stands for?
A. I believe it stands for Adult Verification System, I
believe.
Q. And do you recognize or realize that there are two
systems. There's the AVS system and the KeyZ system; is that
correct?
A. I don't have extensive knowledge of that, but I'm familiar
with that concept, yes.
Q. And even under some of the AVS systems below that there
are some entries, if you will, concerning KeyZ on certain of
the documents, while on a number of the other documents it's
strictly AVS. Isn't that true?
A. I don't know the answer to that. I haven't had time to
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SMIDDY - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL IV, 626
research these documents.
Q. Could you look through and verify that for us, please.
A. Okay. Was your question that there's KeyZ and AVS on each
page?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Yes, there appears to be.
Q. And did you engage in any conversation at all with
Ms. Reedy concerning these payday records?
A. I did not.
Q. Were you present when anyone else was interviewing her
about these records, sir?
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, I'm going to object. This
exceeds the scope of direct.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. Did you understand that a number of the AVS records had
absolutely nothing to do with any type of illegal sites at all?
A. I'm not that familiar with the case to know the answer to
that.
MR. HEISKELL: Thank you. That's all.
THE COURT: Will there be redirect?
MS. MOORE: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down, sir. Thank you.
Please call your next witness.
MR. EDDINS: Call Rex Rector, Your Honor.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RECTOR - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL IV, 627
THE COURT: Mr. Rector, I don't recall swearing you
in previously; is that correct?
MR. RECTOR: That's correct.
THE COURT: Please raise your right hand.
(The witness is sworn.)
THE COURT: You may be seated, sir.
WILLIAM REX RECTOR,
having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. Would you state your full name, please, sir, and where you
live.
A. My name is William Rex Rector. I live in Arlington,
Texas.
Q. Mr. Rector, if you'll pull that microphone just right
there in front of you.
And how are you employed at this time and in what
capacity?
A. I'm currently a senior enforcement accountant with the
Securities & Exchange Commission.
Q. And prior to you being employed by the Securities &
Exchange Commission, how were you employed?
A. I was an auditor in the Criminal Division of the U.S,
Attorney's Office here in Fort Worth.
Q. All right, sir. And for what period of time were you with
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RECTOR - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL IV, 628
the U.S. Attorney's Office in that capacity?
A. I've been with the U.S. Attorney's Office in this capacity
since August of this year -- or late August of this year.
Q. What does your educational background consist of?
A. I have a bachelor's degree in physics, a bachelor's degree
in accounting, and I'm a certified public accountant.
Q. And how long have you been a certified public accountant
licensed in the state of Texas to practice?
A. I believe since 1977 or '78.
Q. All right, sir. Now, at my request during your time with
the U.S. Attorney's Office, did you participate in audit
activities in connection with the Landslide investigation?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And did you review various business records to prepare
summaries of the voluminous documents that those consisted of?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. You have there in front of you a diskette that has been
marked for identification purposes Government's Exhibit
JR-A-20, which has been admitted into evidence as a copy of the
QuickBooks of Landslide, and did you use that in your audit
activity?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you prepare a summary of income of sales of web site
access using that government's exhibit?
A. Yes.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RECTOR - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL IV, 629
Q. And you have in front of you what's been marked for
identification purposes Government's Exhibit Summary 1; is that
correct?
A. I have it here somewhere.
Q. It's at the back, Mr. Rector.
A. At the back?
Q. Yes, sir. Almost all the way to the back of that binder.
A. Yes, here it is.
Q. Okay. Can you identify Government's Exhibit Summary 1?
A. Yes, I can.
Q. What is it?
A. This is basically just a schedule of the Landslide sales
and the costs attributable to those sales and their gross
profit.
Q. For what period of time?
A. September of 1997 through August of 1999.
Q. And does it truly and accurately reflect the figures
contained in the defendants' QuickBook records previously
admitted as JR-A-20?
A. Yes, it does.
MR. EDDINS: Offer Government's Exhibit Summary 1,
Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Judge, since the original source was, I
believe, the search warrant, we make the same objection as to
the other seized material.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RECTOR - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL IV, 630
THE COURT: No objection, though, to the summary
nature?
MR. BALL: No, sir.
THE COURT: Okay. Objection is overruled. It's
admitted.
And can you give me a page reference, please.
MR. EDDINS: It's page 22, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Thank you.
MR. EDDINS: Request permission to publish to the
jury?
THE COURT: Granted.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. This shows total sales for a period of time September
1997 through August 1999 of 9,275,964, returns of 204,025,
total of 9,071,939. And you have also computed cost of sales
in terms of credit card discounts and site referral fees; is
that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And site referral fees would be what?
A. Those are the payments to webmasters.
Q. Which leaves a total of $6,103,517 for a gross profit of
$2,968,422; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
MR. EDDINS: And, Your Honor, this testimony is in
relation to all of the counts but particularly in connection
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RECTOR - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL IV, 631
with the forfeiture allegation contained in the indictment.
THE COURT: And that is count?
MR. EDDINS: It's just a forfeiture allegation.
THE COURT: The forfeiture count at the end.
MR. EDDINS: Yes, Your Honor.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. Mr. Rector, did you also compile from exhibits admitted
into evidence a compilation of sites, web site sales, in the
categories of AVS and KeyZ sites sold for August of 1999?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And you have in front of you what's been marked for
identification purposes Government's Exhibit Summary No. 2; is
that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And is that what that consists of?
A. Yes.
Q. Is this based on records obtained from the defendants in
this case?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. EDDINS: Offer Government's Exhibit Summary 2,
Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objection as the last exhibit, Judge.
THE COURT: Overruled. It's admitted.
MR. EDDINS: Permission to publish to the jury, Your
Honor?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RECTOR - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL IV, 632
THE COURT: Granted.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. Where, Mr. Rector, did you get the numbers 204 and 315
under AVS and KeyZ, number of sites sold in August of '99?
A. This information comes from the August payday report.
Q. All right, sir. And that shows a total of 519 sites sold
during that month?
A. Well, that's the number of unique sites that were sold
during that month.
Q. Okay. And when you have designated "number of sites," is
that -- You also have a column for number of transactions.
What's the difference between number of sites and number of
transactions?
A. Well, the number of sites here is simply the unique number
of sites. Many of those sites were sold more than once, so
that is the unique number of sites. The number of transactions
is simply the total number of transactions of which most of
those were sales transactions.
Q. All right. So if there were thousands of sites during
August of 1999, only 519 actual sites were sold; is that
correct?
A. Well, 519 -- That's correct. 519 unique sites were sold,
although many were sold more than once.
Q. Okay. And that produced a total revenue in August of
1999 as shown for AVS, 126,186?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RECTOR - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL IV, 633
A. That's correct.
Q. For KeyZ 698,996, with a total revenue that month of
$825,182; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And then you've taken cost of sales reflected in the
payday reports and the business records of the defendant, which
shows a gross profit that month; is that correct?
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. At my request, Mr. Rector, did you also put together from
these records a summary of proceeds to the defendants and their
company Landslide, Inc. --
A. Yes.
Q. -- strictly from the web sites alleged in this indictment?
A. Yes.
Q. All right, sir. And you have in front of you what's been
marked for identification purposes Summary 3; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Is that what that is?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And is the source document for this summary compilation
records of the defendant admitted into evidence?
A. Yes.
MR. EDDINS: We would offer Government's Exhibit
Summary 3, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the last two
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RECTOR - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL IV, 634
exhibits, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Objection is overruled. It's admitted.
MR. EDDINS: May we publish it to the jury, Your
Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. Would you explain to the jury how this summary lists the
sites and the information contained in the summary.
A. Well, this is a list of all of the sites that were
included in the indictment. The accounts are on the left-hand
side. The indictment site name is in the second column. The
webmaster responsible for that site is in the third column, and
Landslide's web site user name is in the fourth column. The
amounts that were paid to those webmasters for those sites are
in the fifth column, and the final column is the amount of
sales attributed to those sites, which is called proceeds here.
Q. All right, sir. Now, there is an indictment web site name
and a web site user name. Would you explain how, in your audit
of the business records of Landslide, you brought those two
together in order to attribute the monies to the sales of those
particular web sites and webmasters.
A. Well, there was a key piece of evidence called the links
table, which associated the user name, which was how the
accounting system was driven, with the web site, the full web
site name and the webmaster. And I used the links table.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RECTOR - CROSS - BALL VOL IV, 635
Q. All right, sir. And are the proceeds that are shown in
the column to the far right actual tabulated rates off of the
business records of the defendants?
A. Yes. They were computed from the payday reports.
Q. All right, sir. And so that shows $1,290,412 total
proceeds from the 11 web sites named in the indictment; is that
correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And that would be actual dollars for those web sites.
A. Actual dollars, based upon the prices in the rates table.
Q. All right. And do you have a period of time for -- that
the Government's Summary Exhibit No. 3 covers, Mr. Rector?
A. Yes. It covers October of 1998 through August of 1999.
MR. EDDINS: I'll pass the witness, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Will there be cross?
MR. BALL: Yes, Your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. BALL:
Q. Mr. Rector, what was the period of time that you worked
for the United States Attorney's Office?
A. June of 1990 through August of this year, 2000.
Q. All right. I gather prior to your departure from the U.S.
Attorney's Office in August of this year, you put some
substantial work in on this matter?
A. That's correct.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RECTOR - CROSS - BALL VOL IV, 636
Q. In fact, we met some months ago at the U.S. Attorney's
Office. You were working on these matters then; is that
correct?
A. That's correct.
MR. BALL: If T can have up Summary 1, please.
BY MR. BALL:
Q. Okay. This was the summary of sales for the period
September '97 to August '99; is that right?
A. That's right.
Q. And I note -- Is the term "sales" a term that you used in
creating this exhibit?
A. That term comes from the Landslide QuickBooks.
Q. All right. And when we look under the first grouping of
figures, "returns $204,025," correct, sir?
A. That's correct.
Q. What does that represent when it says "returns"?
A. Well, I believe it's, for the most part, refunds.
Q. All right. Are you familiar with the concept used in the
credit card industry in commerce, both e-commerce and in
general transactions that don't occur over the internet, called
a chargeback?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. All right. Are you familiar with a notion that if I
purchase something with a credit card I can call my credit card
company and complain that my goods are shoddy or it's a
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RECTOR - CROSS - BALL VOL IV, 637
fraudulent transaction and I didn't use the card or something
like that, and the credit card company will then take that off
my bill, essentially, correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. If they assume my explanation is legitimate. True, sir?
A. That's correct.
Q. And then what happens when they take that off my bill, my
monthly credit card bill, what happens on the other end where
the merchant or the purveyor of goods or services is concerned?
A. It's charged back to the merchant.
Q. Okay. So is that money deducted from his proceeds, from
that sale?
A. That's right.
Q. All right. He may submit a whole batch of sales to a
bank, $100,000 worth of sales, but he may not collect every
dime of that because of some chargeback questions. Is that
true?
A. That's true.
Q. All right. Did you calculate, in coming up with the
figures on Summary No. 1, chargeback figures that any banks may
have applied to Landslide?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. All right. What was the figure of chargebacks? Is it
included in any of the figures we see here?
A. It's included both in the returns and in what they have
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RECTOR - CROSS - BALL VOL IV, 638
credit card discounts. What this is, is basically what
Landslide had in their income statement. I did, however, do
extensive testing of one bank account, the Chase Bank account,
which was 80 percent of the sales, and verified -- I compared
everything from the sale -- from the accounting records back to
the bank records, and I discovered that what they had done in
their accounting system is they essentially had commingled
returns, chargebacks, discounts, they got them all mixed up.
And this is not a reconciliation of that, which I did do, but
this is simply what their records show. And the credit card
chargebacks are included in both returns and credit card
discounts, as you see there.
Q. All right. And are you telling us that these are the
proceeds actually received, or is that a different figure?
A. Well, the sales, the sales are what their bank account
showed. Well, let me put it this way. Their sales are what
their books showed. I verified 80 percent of that by comparing
to the bank records.
Q. All right. You did an 80 percent comparison?
A. I did a 100 percent testing, or a 100 percent tracing, of
all bank transactions into the Chase Bank account. The Chase
Bank account accounted for about 80 percent of the sales. I
didn't look at the NationsBank account.
Q. Okay. Additionally, if I buy something with a credit card
for, let's say, $30 and I call my bank or the credit card
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RECTOR - CROSS - BALL VOL IV, 639
company and say I don't like what I got or something and I
initiate a chargeback, is the amount that's deducted from the
merchant's proceeds $30, or do they apply some additional costs
or penalties to that person for the chargeback?
A. Well, I'm not sure. I think it would probably depend on
the credit card vendor, but whatever the chargeback amount was,
and different credit card companies have different -- they call
it different things, adjustments and so forth. But whatever
that number is, I found to be included either in returns or
discounts in what you see here.
Q. All right. And is this total down here, gross profit
2,968,000 et cetera, is that from all of the web sites that
were under the umbrella of Landslide, either AVS or KeyZ?
A. That's correct.
Q. Would that include, as you understand how this case
worked, would that include sites that showed pictures of adult
subjects?
A. Yes, it includes all of their business.
Q. The entire amount of content that was available through
web sites under the umbrella Landslide?
A. Yes.
Q. All right.
MR. BALL: Could I have Summary No. 2, please.
BY MR. BALL:
Q. All right, sir. This particular exhibit, you just
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RECTOR - CROSS - BALL VOL IV, 640
selected a month to show some percentages and so forth. Is
that what this represents?
A. Yes.
Q. And that would be the month of August of 1999?
A. That's correct.
Q. Was that the month that preceded the search and seizure of
the business, premises, of Landslide?
A. I believe so. It was their last full month.
Q. All right. And, again, at the top of this you designated
this as AVS versus KeyZ web site sales. That's on the exhibit,
correct, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And you've got a gross profit down -- total on
the right, 315,162, correct?
A. That's right.
Q. Do you know if Landslide collected any of that money?
A. In August I am trying to recall if -- I can tell you in a
minute. Yes, I believe they did.
Q. All right. Well, are you aware, do you know whether or
not Superior Bank -- was that the bank that was processing
these transactions?
MR. EDDINS: Your Honor, this goes beyond the scope
of direct. We would object.
MR. BALL: Judge, I would submit -- Can I clarify
with another question, Judge?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RECTOR - CROSS - BALL VOL IV, 641
BY MR. BALL:
Q. Are you aware of whether or not any bank that would have
paid these sales actually froze, as a result of the search and
seizure of Landslide, the payment of the proceeds from August
sales?
MR. EDDINS: Your Honor, we would object to that. It
goes into other bank records that this witness has not
testified about, that are not part of his summary.
THE COURT: It would seem so.
BY MR. BALL:
Q. Do you know, sir, do you know whether or not that event
occurred from anything that you reviewed in your CPA
examination?
A. I did not get into the Superior Bank credit card area.
The main area I looked at was the Chase Bank.
Q. All right. When we submit, when I sell -- if I'm a
merchant and I sell something, the payment, there is some time
delay, is there not, in getting my money from the bank?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Do you know what that typically might be, or
do you know?
A. I'm not really sure what it would have been in this case.
MR. BALL: Could I have Summary No. 3, please.
BY MR. BALL:
Q. All right. Mr. Rector, this is a summary of proceeds from
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RECTOR - CROSS - BALL VOL IV, 642
the listed sites for the time period from -- I forget when you
said in 1998 sometime until August of '99?
A. October of '98 through August of '99.
Q. All right. I gather you were not involved in the review
of the content of any of these sites during that time frame.
That would be matters investigated by other people?
A. I have seen quite a bit of the material from these sites.
In fact, from all of them.
Q. Pardon?
A. In fact, I've seen material from all of these sites.
Q. All right. Well, let's take a site, for example, Blackcat
Lolita Photo Series. Do you know what images-they were showing
during the entire period of -- I believe you said October of
1998 to August of 1999.
MR. EDDINS: That goes beyond the
scope of the
direct.
MR. BALL: Judge, I think it relates to the
allegations in the forfeiture count.
MR. EDDINS: But he's asking the witness about
knowledge about the contents of the site, and it's immaterial
to his summary testimony, Your Honor. It goes beyond the
scope.
THE COURT: I agree. Sustained.
MR. BALL: All right.
BY MR. BALL:
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RECTOR - CROSS - BALL VOL IV, 643
Q. In this particular summary, the figure $1,290,412, do you
know whether or not the entirety of that figure represents
proceeds or money from illegal child pornography or not, the
entire dollar figure there?
A. Yes.
MR. EDDINS: Your Honor, that's the jury's decision.
We will object to him asking this summary witness about a legal
conclusion and a factual conclusion that's up to the Court and
jury.
THE COURT: I think you can answer. The question was
in this particular summary, the figure 1,290,412, do you know
whether or not the entirety of that figure represents proceeds
or money from illegal child pornography or not, the entire
dollar figure there.
Do you know, the question is do you know?
THE WITNESS: I would say, yes, because it's based
upon those specific sites you see there and I have seen images
from each and every site.
MR. BALL: All right. I believe that's all. Thank
you, sir. I'll pass the witness.
MR. HEISKELL: No questions.
THE COURT: Is there redirect?
MR. EDDINS: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down, sir.
Hearing no objection, this witness is also free to go.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
GIRLING - DIRECT - MOORE VOL IV, 644
The government may call its next witness.
MS. MOORE: We'll call Sharon Girling.
THE COURT; Ms. Girling, if you'll please step around
here, I'll administer the oath.
(The witness is sworn.)
THE COURT; You may be seated.
SHARON GIRLING,
having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Will you state your name, please, ma'am.
A. My name is Sharon Girling.
Q. And, Ms. Girling, where are you from?
A. I'm from the United Kingdom.
Q. And what is it that you do for work?
A. I'm a case officer on a pedophile investigation for the
National Crimes Squad. I'm a detective.
Q. So you're a police detective.
A. Yes, I am.
Q. In London?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Okay. Did we bring you here basically to talk about
several counts of the indictment?
MS. MOORE; I need to point that out, Your Honor.
Count 3 and 47, 4 and 48, 5 and 49, 6 and 50, 14 and 58, 17 and
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
GIRLING - DIRECT - MOORE VOL IV, 645
61, 20 and 64, and Count 89.
THE COURT: Thank you.
MS. MOORE: I forgot to say that.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Detective Girling, have you had a chance to look at some
photographs involved in this case?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Okay. And what was the purpose of you looking at those,
photographs in our case?
A. To see if I could recognize any of the children in those
photographs.
Q. And, Detective Girling, did you recognize any of the
children in the photographs of our case?
A. Yes, I do. I know some of the children in those
photographs.
Q. Which children do you know?
A. I know censored and I know censored.
Q. And are you saying censored?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. c-e-n-s-o-r-e-d?
A. That's correct.
Q. censored and censored?
A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. And how is it that you know censored and censored?
A. I was an officer concerned in the investigation into their
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
GIRLING - DIRECT - MOORE VOL IV, 646
abuse, and I regularly see the children. In fact, I saw them
last Wednesday prior to coming over here.
Q. Where do they live, Detective Girling? You say you saw
them last Wednesday.
A. They live in Manchaster in England.
Q. And why did you see them last Wednesday?
A. Why did I see them? I just went to make sure they were
okay and to explain my reasons for coming over here.
Q. Okay. How old is censored?
A. censored was born in 1989. She is now 11 years of age, and
censored is 12.
Q. And how old is censored?
A. He's 12 years of age.
Q. Okay. And how is it that you know these children? You
were involved in an investigation of their abuse, you say?
A. Yes, I was. And as a result of that I've interviewed them
on numerous occasions and spent some time with them.
Q. And were they sexually abused?
A. Yes, they were, quite severely sexually abused.
Q. By whom?
A. By their stepfather censored.
Q. And did you recognize any photograph that we provided you
of -- Was censored in those images?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. Okay. Is censored in prison?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
GIRLING - DIRECT - MOORE VOL IV, 647
A. Yes, he is.
Q. Detective Girling, you have a photograph book up there.
MS. MOORE: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Let me show you what's marked as Government's Exhibit SG,
I guess that's for Sharon Girling, No. l. Do you recognize
that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Is that a photograph of the children?
A. That's a family photograph of all of censored's -- his
own two children and his three stepchildren.
Q. And the stepchildren would be censored and censored?
A. That's correct. censored is in the back left corner, and
censored is in the front right.
Q. Does it fairly and accurately represent the family
photograph of those kids?
A. Yes, it does.
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, I would offer SG -- It should
be on page 22 of the list, SG-1, family photo.
MR. BALL: No objection.
THE COURT: Admitted.
MS. MOORE: May I publish, Your Honor --
THE COURT: You may.
MS. MOORE: -- SG-1?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
GIRLING - DIRECT - MOORE VOL IV, 648
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Okay. Detective Girling, there should be a little pointer
up there under all of that.
MS. MOORE: May I approach, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Okay. Would you use that and point to the child that is
censored?
A. (Pointing) That's censored.
Q. Okay. And censored is 11, you say?
A. She's 11. She was born in May of 1989.
Q. And would you point to the child that is censored?
A. (Pointing) That's censored.
Q. And they're natural brother and sister?
A. They are, yes.
Q. And which other one is their natural brother?
A. (Pointing) That's censored.
Q. And the other two little girls?
A. Are censored's own children with their mother.
Q. Okay. Did you look through a lot of our exhibits to
determine whether or not censored and censored are in those images?
A. Yes, I have.
MS. MOORE: May I show the witness, Your Honor,
SN-C-4?
THE COURT: Yes.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
GIRLING - DIRECT - MOORE VOL IV, 649
MS. MOORE: That's long enough.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Did you determine who that was?
A. That was censored.
Q. censored?
A. Yes.
MS. MOORE: SN-C-5 for Count 4 and 48. The previous
one was for Count 3 and 47. This is for Count 4 and 48,
SN-C-5.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Was that censored and censored?
A. That's censored and censored, yes.
Q. Okay.
MS. MOORE: SN-C-6 for Count 5 and 49.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Was that censored?
A. That's censored abusing censored, yes.
MS. MOORE: Okay. For Count 6 and 50, SN-C-7.
A. That's censored and that's censored.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Okay.
MS. MOORE: For Count 14 and 58, SN-E-5.
A. That's censored and that's -- her sexual abuse is by her
father.
BY MS. MOORE:
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
GIRLING - DIRECT - MOORE VOL IV, 650
Q. That's censored?
A. That's censored, yes.
MS. MOORE: For Count 17 and 61, SN-F-5.
A. That's censored.
MS. MOORE: Okay. And for Count 20 and 64, SN-F-8.
A. That's censored.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. How old was censored there?
A. Six.
Q. Over what period of time did this abuse of censored take
place?
A. About two and a half years.
Q. Okay. So we see her from age 6, then, to --
A. To about eight and a half.
Q. And how old would censored have been when the abuse started
with him?
A. He was age seven when it started and finished when he was
age nine.
Q. Okay. Did I ask you to look at some photographs that
represent Count 89 of the indictment?
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, the possession count.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. That are labeled TR-A-13 all the way through 78, TR-A-78?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And did you do that?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
GIRLING - DIRECT - MOORE VOL IV, 651
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And are those images -- Do they contain photographs of
both censored and censored?
A, Yes, they do.
Q. As well as censored?
A. Yes, they do.
Q. Now, some of those images, Detective Girling, don't have
the child's face. It would just be a body part. How is it
that you know that that would be censored or censored?
A. I've interviewed censored, and we sat down with the
images and he certified each of the image as being a picture
taken by himself and has identified on each picture where that
picture was taken and who the children in those pictures that
he was abusing were.
Q. Okay. He abused more than just censored and censored?
A. Yes,he did.
Q. Okay. Are there other identifiers in the photographs
besides you knowing that censored told you those were his
pictures?
A. Yes. Some of the background in the room, bed sheets that
we've seized from his home address, and we've taken photographs
of his home address and some of the wallpapers and furnishings.
Q. So you could see the background stuff and recognize the
room.
A. Yes.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
GIRLING - DIRECT - MOORE VOL IV, 652
Q. I'm not going to display those other photographs, but are
you confident that those images, the TR-A-13 through TR-A-78
are of censored and censored?
A. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that the children
in those pictures are censored and censored.
MS. MOORE: I'll pass the witness, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Will there be cross?
MR. BALL: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. Thank you.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURT: You may call your next witness.
MS. MOORE: The government rests, Your Honor.
THE COURT: We'll take a brief recess and return here
for the beginning of the defendants' case. I won't give you an
exact time, but it won't be long.
(Jury out, 9:54 a.m.)
THE COURT: Let's be seated.
Mr. Ball, do you have a motion?
MR. BALL: Yes, Your Honor. Under Federal Rule of
Criminal Procedure 29 we would move for judgment of acquittal
as to all counts. The government has failed to prove and
present evidence, having rested their case in chief, sufficient
to sustain the conviction of the offenses listed. I haven't
broken out the counts because I wasn't sure what Detective
Girling's testimony would be. We would move to -- one of the
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL IV, 653
reasons for the motion would be that at least some of the
photographs are not identified as real children, and we would
move to dismiss those counts of the indictment, the first
series of counts, to go under the theory of 2252 as opposed
2252A.
THE COURT: Let me ask Ms. Moore: Do you agree that
any of the photographs have not been shown to be photographs of
real children?
MS. MOORE: No, I don't, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I didn't think so, either.
That portion of your motion is denied.
MR. BALL: That's all I have.
THE COURT: Motion is denied.
MR. HEISKELL: Your Honor, on behalf of Janice Reedy
under Rule 29(a) of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure,we
would ask for a judgment of acquittal in that the mens rea or
requirement of the government to prove beyond a reasonable
doubt as to Ms. Reedy's knowledge as to any of these alleged
illegal sites or images produced under the particular counts,
and certainly included in the possession count -
THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry. I can't hear you.
MR. HEISKELL: I'm sorry.
THE COURT: Why don't you back up about a paragraph.
MR. HEISKELL: Okay. I think I was at that point in
which I alleged that the government failed to prove beyond a
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL IV, 654
reasonable doubt the mens rea of the mental state required of
Janice Reedy as to all of the counts, including the possession
count, concerning her knowledge of or participation in the
images or production of the images or sale of the images
alleged in the indictment.
As a matter of fact, the evidence has shown that Ms. Reedy
played the role of a financial person within the Landslide,
Inc., company. She is not listed even under the records of
incorporation of Landslide, Inc., as any part of the management
team or director or corporate officer. There's no testimony of
direct evidence that she knew of the sites themselves as far as
the images being produced or that have been transmitted over
the internet. Simply that she participated in the payment to
the webmasters, and the chargebacks and other matters that the
Court heard.
We would urge the Court under Rule 29(a) to rule for
judgment of acquittal on all counts as to Janice Reedy.
THE COURT: Ms. Moore, I believe that knowledge of
Janice Reedy can be inferred at least. Do you believe that
there is evidence in the record that is stronger than
inference?
MS. MOORE: Yes, Your Honor. I would cite
specifically the testimony of Inspector Steed Huggins from
yesterday that where he interviewed Janice Reedy and she said
that she knew that they had to go Landslide to get to sites
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL IV, 655
like F'ing Little Kids and whatnot. And then his testimony,
likewise, that Thomas Reedy said that Janice Reedy knew as well
as himself.
THE COURT: I agree. The motion is denied.
Let's -- ten minutes, or do you need a little longer?
MR. BALL: Judge, we were expecting to be prepared to
proceed at noon. There are a couple of witnesses -- Well, the
witness list given us yesterday at the conclusion of the
testimony by the government has been shortened by -
MS. MOORE: It has, Your Honor. I think I said
yesterday they should have them here probably about 11:00
o'clock, and we did cut two witnesses.
MR. BALL: There was a David Cruz and a Frank Super.
And I visited with Ms. Moore this morning about a witness we
intend to call named Donna Kibbie who is an FBI agent from
Pennsylvania who is here and who was mentioned in the
government's opening statement as going to be a witness they
called. And I don't know if she is across the street or out in
the hallway. She was going to be our first witness.
THE COURT: But you believe she's nearby?
MR. BALL: That was my understanding.
MS. MOORE: We can get her, Judge. I've got somebody
coordinating all these people.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. BALL: And I have some witnesses appearing at
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL IV, 656
Mr. Heiskell's office at 11:00.
THE COURT: You have what?
MR. BALL: Witnesses appearing at Mr. Heiskell's
office next door here at 11:00 in anticipation of being a
little bit earlier than the noontime than we had anticipated.
And for the Court's information, I think we can present
our case and get it done this afternoon.
MR. HEISKELL: Judge --
THE COURT: Let me ask you a
question before you
start.
If we start at 10:30, can you get your case started?
MS. MOORE: Judge, our coordinator just said
Ms. Kibbie is here, so that witness is here.
THE COURT: I'll give you until 10:30 and piece it
together the best you can, and if we have to take an early
lunch break, we can do that.
MR. BALL: All right. Thank you, sir.
MR. HEISKELL: And just to supplement that, Judge.
We thought and anticipated Mr. David Cruz was going to be a
witness, who was going to be a relatively longer witness than
the others this morning. In fact, there were about 20 exhibits
that were related to him and we've been going over those and
now we have to kind of backtrack. But, yes, I think we can
start at 10:30 and see where we are after that witness.
THE COURT: Well, let's start at 10:30 and make it to
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
KIBBIE - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 657
11:30, at least. If we don't have enough testimony to get to
11:30 we may have to cut earlier and take an early lunch break
and then that will give you some time. Take an hour and a half
for lunch. That will give you time to wash down a sandwich and
get the rest of them together.
We'll be in recess until 10:30.
(Court in recess, 10:00 a.m. until 10:36 a.m.)
THE COURT: You may call your first witness.
MR. BALL: Your Honor, we would call Donna Kibbie.
That's K-I-B-B-I-E.
THE COURT: Ms. Kibbie, if you'll step forward, I'll
administer the oath. Please raise your right hand and be
sworn.
(The witness is sworn.)
THE COURT: You may be seated in the witness chair.
DONNA KIBBIE,
having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BALL:
Q. Could you tell us your name, please, ma'am.
A. Donna Kibbie.
Q. And how are you employed or occupied, Ms. Kibbie?
A. I'm a special agent with the Federal Bureau of
Investigation.
Q. And where do you live, please, ma'am?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
KIBBIE - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 658
A. I work out of the Philadelphia office.
Q. A11 right. Philadelphia, Pennsylvania?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. How long have you been with the Federal Bureau
of Investigation?
A. Just over 20 years.
Q. All right. And how long have you been at the
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, office?
A. Since 1984.
Q. 1984?
A. Right.
Q. All right. Let me direct your attention to -- back in the
spring time frame, I believe, or maybe early 1999. Did you
have occasion in your duties as an FBI agent to receive an
inquiry, a complaint, concerning something on the internet?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Is there an internet service provider or an
ISP with the name spree.com?
A. Yes. It's in our area.
Q. Is the operation of spree.com physically located within
your area?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And was that the source of the complaint concerning
something on the internet?
A. Yes.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
KIBBIE - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 659
Q. Was there an individual, a lady there by the name of
Ingrid Cook, that was the source of that complaint?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Did spree.com essentially, in simple terms,
offer people to be able to put up free web pages?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And at that particular time were you
particularly familiar with the internet and how it operated
with computers, or not much so?
A. No, I was very much a novice.
Q. All right. And did that complaint concern a site on the
internet that was using spree.com's services that had something
to do with child pornography type material?
A. Right.
Q. All right. Do you recall the name of the site that was
the subject of this complaint?
A. No. I just recall the screen name or the Musix 2,
M-U-S-I-X 2, was the name used.
Q. All right. And did you receive documents from Ms. Cook
setting out various items such as what the site looked like,
what the web page looked like?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Do you recall the name Lolita Land at all?
A. Yes.
Q. Does that sound like maybe that was the name of the site
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
KIBBIE - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 660
that was being complained about?
A. It had something to do with the site. I'm not sure that
that was -- I don't how the names of the sites worked, but that
had something to do with the site, yes.
Q. All right. And did you endeavor, after receiving that
complaint, to try to determine who was putting that site on the
internet and showing illegal child pornography images? Did you
make an effort to try to determine that?
A. When I got the complaint, they furnished me the name that
the person had used to sign up, to get that free web site.
They also furnished an e-mail address. So what I wanted to do
was to find out if that person were in the United States or in
a foreign country.
Q. All right. And did you have the name as a point of
reference that might have some information about who this
individual was that was putting this site on the internet by
the name of Tom Reedy?
A. Well, they told me, spree.com, Ingrid Cook told me that
keyz.com was a credit card company that processed credit cards
so that people could access that site.
Q. All right. So did you get information regarding the
possible location and ownership of keyz.com to make an inquiry
with them?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Did you, pursuant to your duties, get an order
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
KIBBIE - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 661
from a court, a federal court in your jurisdiction in
Pennsylvania, ordering Landslide or its representatives to
produce documents identifying who might run Lolita Land?
A. Right.
Q. And was that order, in some fashion, sent to Landslide and
its organization?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And, ultimately, did you have any telephone
conversations with any individuals at Landslide?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Do you recall who you might have had conversations with?
A. I spoke with Tom Reedy and a Carol someone.
Q. All right. Does the name of Carol Clark sound familiar?
A. It could be if that's what was on the note.
Q. And, in fact, did you -- when you conducted this
investigation, make some notes or documentation about what you
were doing?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And, in fact, in law enforcement is that an
important thing to do to try to document, in some fashion, what
you're doing in an investigation?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. So that if you're asked to recall it a year
later or so, you've got something to look at and refer to, to
assist you. Is that true?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
KIBBIE - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 662
A. True.
Q. And you said you did have a conversation with Tom Reedy?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Did someone at Landslide, either Mr. Reedy or
someone else at that location, describe the general -- in a
general sense what they did as being an adult verification
service, keeping children from looking at pornographic or
sexually type material?
A. I don't recall that we were that specific. I just recall
and wrote down that they had said they were an adult
verification service.
Q. All right. And did they ultimately send you some
documentation in response to the court order identifying from
their records who this individual might be that runs Lolita
Land?
A. Yes. Eventually they did.
Q. And, incidentally, as part of the court order that was
issued by the federal judge in Pennsylvania, was there any
portion of that that directed the recipient of that order, that
being Landslide and Mr. Reedy, not to disclose to the subject,
or the target, of the investigation that this investigation or
order was ever issued?
A. Yes, there was.
Q. All right. In other words, part of the court's order in
Pennsylvania was that it would be improper for -- or they would
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
KIBBIE - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 663
be in violation of that court order if they disclosed to
Mr. Greenberg in Russia that this inquiry had been made. Is
that true?
A. That's true. I do that routinely.
Q. All right. Because if someone were to tip someone off, it
might impede an investigation, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. All right. In fact, was the information that you received
back from Landslide identified an individual by the name of
Boris Greenberg?
A. Correct.
Q. And Mr. Greenberg was identified as residing in what
country, ma'am?
A. In Russia.
Q. All right. And did you -- What did that tell you as far
as your investigation was concerned, that Mr. Greenberg, the
runner of Lolita Land, actually resided outside the United
States in the country of Russia?
A. They told me it was out of our jurisdiction. It was in
Customs' jurisdiction.
Q. All right. Did you close your investigation at that
juncture?
A. I didn't really open an investigation. That was just an
inquiry to see if we had sufficient grounds to open an
investigation.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
KIBBIE - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 664
Q. All right. Did you pass that investigation on or refer it
to anyone else or any other agencies like Customs or anyone?
A. No, not until much later.
Q. All right. And, incidentally, in the conversation that
you had with Mr. Reedy or any others at Landslide, did you ever
inform them or advise them that what they were doing was wrong
or improper or in violation of any federal laws?
A. No.
Q. All right. And were you aware at the time you conducted
this inquiry of Mr. Greenberg in the early part of 1999 that
there was any investigation occurring down in the Northern
District of Texas by the federal government of Landslide, Tom
Reedy, or any others associated with that business?
A. No, I was not.
Q. When did you learn, if you did, that there was such an
investigation down in this area of the country?
A. I think sometime last summer.
Q. All right. Did you receive an inquiry from
representatives of the federal government here in the Northern
District of Texas as to what you might -- what your activity
was in this inquiry you've discussed with us?
A. Yes.
Q. And sent them -- Did you talk to them and send them some
material regarding that inquiry?
A. Yes, I did.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
KIBBIE - CROSS - EDDINS VOL IV, 665
Q. And what you recalled about it; is that true?
A. (Nods head) Yes.
Q. As far as the FBI in your area of Pennsylvania was
concerned, was the court order issued by the federal judge in
Pennsylvania complied with?
A. Yes.
MR. BALL: I believe that's all. Thank you, ma'am.
I'll pass the witness.
THE COURT: Additional direct?
MR. HEISKELL: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Cross?
MR. EDDINS: Yes, Your Honor. If it please the
Court.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. Ms. Kibbie, this inquiry that caused you to come into
contact with Landslide and Thomas Reedy was not an
investigation; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. This was on the level of simply an inquiry based on a
complaint.
A. Right.
Q. To see whether there was anything there.
A. Right.
Q. At any time that you contacted Thomas Reedy or Landslide,
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
KIBBIE - CROSS - EDDINS VOL IV, 666
did anyone ever tell you that they were participating in the
sale of child pornography sites?
A. No.
Q. Did they ever report to you child pornography sites?
A. No.
Q. If they had, would you have referred that to other law
enforcement agencies and taken that information and conducted
an investigation of child pornography yourself?
A. Absolutely.
Q. The court order that counsel was asking you about, which
required -- which is the way confidential wire communications
are obtained from people such as Landslide and these
defendants, did anyone at Landslide or Thomas Reedy tell you
that Boris Greenberg was distributing child pornography?
A. It seems like when I spoke to Mr. Reedy he might have said
it was probably Japanese, but not anything more specific than
that.
Q. Did he tell you that it was child pornography?
A. You know, I don't recall that he -- He may have, but I
don't recall that he said it was child pornography. I just
recall that he said it was probably Japanese girls.
Q. Now, counsel asked you about warning the defendants. Was
there anything in your knowledge that would have required you
to think that there was a necessity for warning these
defendants or Landslide or anyone that you contacted there that
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SUPER - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 667
they were in violation of the law if they didn't tell you that
they knew they were distributing child pornography?
A. No. They were just a credit card company. I was under
the understanding that they were just a credit card company or
an age verification service.
MR. EDDINS: I'll pass the witness, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Redirect?
MR. BALL: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down, ma'am. Thank you.
Please call your next witness.
MR. BALL: Frank Super.
MS. MOORE: Is Donna Kibbie finally released, Your
Honor.
THE COURT: Unless there's
objection.
MR. BALL: That would be fine, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You're free to go as well. Thank you.
Please raise your right hand and be sworn.
(The witness is sworn.)
THE COURT: You may be seated, sir.
FRANK B. SUPER,
having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BALL:
Q. Could you tell us your name, please, sir.
A. Frank B. Super.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SUPER - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 668
Q. And how are you employed or occupied, Mr. Super?
A. I'm a special agent with the Federal Bureau of
Investigation.
Q. All right. And how long have you been a special agent
with the FBI?
A. About three and a half years.
Q. And what sort of occupational line of work were you in
prior to becoming a special agent with the FBI?
A. I was an officer in the United States Marine Corps.
Q. I gather to qualify yourself to become a special agent
with the FBI, did you attend a course of training supplied to
all FBI agents at a location, at the FBI location, at Quantico,
Virginia?
A. That is correct.
Q. All right. And let me direct your attention to the matter
at hand here. Did you ever have occasion to have any contact
with a company or individuals at a business known as Landslide?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What is your best recollection of the first inquiry or
contact you might have had with the business or people at
Landslide?
A. Okay. In the summer of 1997, I'm estimating around the
August time period, the exact date being a bit unclear, but I
know it was during the summer of 1997, my supervisor at the
time, he told me that he had received some information from our
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SUPER - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 669
Dallas office that a business located in Fort Worth by the name
of Landslide, that someone had been on the internet and had
seen some child pornography.
The complaint came through the Dallas office. Apparently
the complainant was someone over in the Dallas side of the
metroplex. And my supervisor gave me a routing slip or some
type of a piece of paper with an address on Belknap Street in
Fort Worth, the name Landslide, and I believe there was a -
there might have been a name of a web site possibly on there by
the name of Child God or something like that. He asked me if I
would go to the address on Belknap Street, look up the owners
or those who are responsible for Landslide, and find out what
was going on.
I did so. I went down to Belknap Street at the address.
The address on Belknap Street was a red brick building on the
south side of the street. I went in there and inquired about
Landslide. The people there at that office told me that
Landslide was actually across the street in a white building on
the north side of Belknap.
So I went across the street and went upstairs to the
offices of Landslide, and when I got to the offices no one was
there. So I went to the bathroom and when I came out of the
bathroom a lady and a young man were just coming into the
office area from outside. She identified herself as Carol
Clark. She told me she was the office manager for Landslide.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SUPER - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 670
I asked her -- Of course, I identified myself as Frank Super,
FBI. I showed her my credentials and I asked her if I could
speak with the owner of the company. There was a complaint
regarding some child pornography.
She said she didn't know anything about that, but she told
me that if I would give her my card that she would have the
owner call me. I went ahead and gave her my card, and then I
left Landslide.
Q. All right. And was that contact, the individuals that you
had contact with at Landslide, generally cooperative with you?
A. Yes.
Q. Providing whatever information you asked for that they
could at that time?
A. Yes, very cooperative.
Q. All right.
A. What happened next was I went back to my office. Over the
next two weeks or so, Mr. Reedy, Thomas Reedy, he attempted to
contact me on the telephone. I attempted to call him back. We
kind of played phone tag for a couple of weeks. We finally got
in contact with one another.
Mr. Reedy told me that he was familiar with the web site
Child God. He told me that Child God was an Indonesian child
pornography site -- or, correction. He told me it was a
pornography site that sometimes slipped child pornography into
its web site.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SUPER - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 671
Q. All right.
A. And he informed me that this had happened periodically
with some web sites. He told me his policy regarding this type
of occurrence when child pornography came on to -- or through
his system and his folks picked it up was that he would tell
the web site "stop doing that or we're going to cut you off
from our system. We're not going to allow you to go through
our domain any longer."
And Mr. Reedy explained to me that with Child God being an
Indonesian site that they were -- From that point on, if they
didn't stop, they were going to be cut off from using his
domain, period.
Q. Okay. And did he describe generally how his business
worked as far as verifying the adult status of people that
wanted to look at various types of pornography and issuing them
passwords and user names and getting a credit card? Did he
give you a general description of how his business worked?
A. I believe he did; that his business was a credit card
verification service that verified that you're an adult for
these web sites.
Q. All right.
A. During the course of the conversation, since Mr. Reedy
informed me that he was aware of some of these web sites that
would then slip into this child pornography thing, you know,
being a fresh young agent out of Quantico, we had had classes
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SUPER - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 672
on our Task Forces across the United States called Innocent
Images which were combatting child pornography, I thought there
might be an opportunity at this point to possibly get some
information about illegal activity. And I said, hey,
Mr. Reedy, if you get some more of these web sites that deal in
child pornography, especially ones that originate in the United
States where we have some jurisdiction, why don't you go ahead
and give me a call.
Q. All right. And was Mr. Reedy's response that he would do
that?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. He seemed willing to cooperate in that
particular endeavor, correct, sir?
A. That's correct.
Q. And the web site that was the subject matter of the
routing slip that you got was child God as best you recall; is
that right?
A. That sounds familiar, yes.
Q. All right. And Mr. Reedy told you that that site
occasionally slipped in some child pornography. He seemed to
be aware of that; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. He used the term "slipped in"?
A. I can't recall the exact term or how it was couched, but
he was aware that Child God had put child pornography in
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SUPER - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 673
through his domain and that it was wrong, that they weren't
supposed to do that. They knew it, and he was going to tell
them to stop doing it or he was going to cut them off.
Q. All right. Now, he advised you that that site he believed
to be someone in Indonesia, in the country of Indonesia?
A. That is correct.
Q. All right. What was your reaction to learning that as far
as your ability to do anything with regard to the individual
running Child God in Indonesia?
A. Well, after Mr. Reedy and I had our conversation, I went
and spoke with my supervisor. We documented the information on
a routing slip. We passed the information up through our chain
of command. It was our opinion that, just mine and my
supervisor's, that because the web site in question was in
Indonesia, we really didn't have any jurisdiction there and we
went ahead and -- well, we believed there was nothing else we
could do.
It appeared that Mr. Reedy was cooperating, that he
understood there was a problem there and he said he was going
to take care of it. We didn't have any other complaints in
Fort Worth, so we went ahead and just routed the information up
through the chain of command and left it at that.
Q. All right. As part of your inquiry and investigation, did
you actually go to the site Child God on a computer somewhere
and attempt to look at it?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SUPER - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 674
A. No. No, I didn't.
Q. All right. And was your opinion about the jurisdictional
question, was that a subject matter, the conversation with
Mr. Reedy when you told him, well, look, if you see something
in the United States give me a call.
A. I think I did discuss that briefly, yes.
Q. And might you have referred to the Task Force, Innocent
Images, during the course of the conversation, that there was a
national task force?
A. Yes. I think I did inform Mr. Reedy that, yes, hey,
there's a nationwide effort called Innocent Images where we're
going after these child pornographers. If you get some more
information that originates in the USA, give us a call and
we'll go after it.
Q. All right. Did you later have a subsequent contact with
Landslide or individuals of that business?
A. Yes. The next year around August of 1998 time period, our
Hong Kong office sent us a lead, which was a request to gather
some information regarding the Sri Lankan chief of police.
Apparently the Sri Lankan chief of police's credit card had
been used to purchase some pornography on the internet. And I
guess the subscriber information came back to Landslide.
So at that time I went ahead back over to Landslide, and I
spoke with Ms. Clark again. I asked her -- I had this
information regarding this credit card number. Can you tell me
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SUPER - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 675
what this credit card was used to purchase. She got on her
computer and said, yeah, it's been used here. And I can't
remember at this point if she printed it out for me there or if
I went back to my office and then she faxed it.to me. I can't
remember but she did provide the information which had the IP
address where the billing was occurring from.
As a result of her information she gave to me, we were
able to trace that the credit card purchases were actually
coming from Sri Lankan and it gave where the IP provider was at
and all that.
Q. All right. Now, this was an assistance of the United
States government to Sri Lankan officials as requested through
the Hong Kong office, correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. So were the people at Landslide with regard to the
information you requested cooperative in providing you the
documentation that you needed to assist in this matter?
A. Yes. And I think as I recall, Mr. Reedy even called me up
and said, hey, did you get what you needed from Ms. Clark. And
I said, yes, thank you.
Q. All right. And as it turned out -- Did Mr. Reedy ask you
in the conversation did that work out, or, did they find out who
that was or something? Do you recall having a conversation
where you might have related it turns out it was the police
chief's son or something?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SUPER - DIRECT - BALL VOL TV, 676
A. I can't recall if I told him that. I recall that it was
or it appeared to be the police chief's son at the time.
Q. A11 right.
A. But I can't recall if I told Mr. Reedy that or not.
Q. All right. Now, this particular -- that particular part
of your investigation regarding the credit card, did you make a
report and create documents --
A. Yes.
Q. -- and forward to Hong Kong or Sri Lanka?
A. As per normal procedure, a report of my conversation was
created with -- the report of my conversation with Ms. Clark
was done; however, when sending reports that are going to be
seen by foreign governments, the bureau policy is that a
letterhead memorandum is done, which has some different
procedures as far as mentioning names and that sort of thing.
So I had to actually make two reports, and those were sent to
Hong Kong. And then Hong Kong, of course, would forward the
letterhead memorandum to the Sri Lankan chief of police and
they would take action as necessary.
Q. Okay. You were careful to follow the FBI's protocol in
creating and reporting what your investigation had shown,
correct, sir?
A. That is correct.
Q. Now, with regard to the other matter of inquiry of Child
God, did you similarly create documents, memorandums of
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SUPER - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 677
interviews, and information gathered during the investigation
of that inquiry?
A. No. On that particular inquiry, we had received the
complaint in an unofficial sort of a phone call, and my boss, I
think, wrote it down on a routing slip. "Here, Frank, go check
that out," which isn't all that unusual. The initial
investigation that I did after I did it and speaking with my
supervisor, there didn't seem to be anything there. So there
was no official complaint form filled in, no official report.
Reports aren't always done on complaints if it seems like
there's nothing there. And, remember, that at the time I had
only been at the field office here for a couple of months, and
I was still kind of getting my feet on solid ground, so to
speak, as far as all the procedures the FBI does follow.
Q. All right. We've had a conversation I think a week or a
few weeks ago; is that correct, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you acknowledge that perhaps hindsight would have been
a better practice to more accurately document the matters of
that inquiry?
A. I think 20/20 hindsight, of course, knowing what I know
now, three years of experience helps a whole bunch. If I was
to do that much investigation now where I actually go somewhere
and talk to people, I would have definitely written it down on
a complaint form, at least on a complaint form, and document it
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SUPER - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 678
that way.
Q. And you indicated you did maybe make some notes on the
routing slip or something of that form. Have you attempted to
locate that document so that you might refresh your memory to
be a little bit more clear on dates and things of that nature?
A. Yes. When I first heard of this -- the case with
Landslide, I did a very extensive search of my files in Fort
Worth, of the files that I kept in another room. I traveled to
the Dallas field office where these types of crimes -- at the
time in '97 when we looked into this, this complaint came from
our computer folks. So if the information would have been
written down and sent to Dallas, it would have been to the
Dallas squad and put into the Dallas information file.
I traveled to Dallas. I spent a day there looking through
their information files, and I didn't find it anywhere.
Q. All right. And as we sit here today, you've not been able
to locate that document, correct, sir?
A. That's correct.
Q. All right. And, incidentally, in the course of your
contacts with Landslide, Mr. Reedy, Carol Clark, or anyone else
associated with that business on the two occasions and in the
-- I think maybe there was a follow-up phone call from
Mr. Reedy about did you get what you were looking for, did you
ever advise Mr. Reedy or anyone else at Landslide to stop doing
what they're doing?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SUPER - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 679
A. To stop doing their business?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. No.
Q. All right. Or that their business was wrong or illegal
under any federal law?
A. No.
Q. All right. Thank you, Agent.
MR. BALL: I'll pass the witness.
THE COURT: Is there additional direct?
MR. HEISKELL: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may proceed.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Agent Super, why didn't you advise him to stop running his
business?
A. Well, from what he told me, he was running a legitimate
business, albeit, it's adult pornography sites. He told me
that child pornography would sometimes come through his domain,
through his Landslide, and when it did he said he would call
the people and tell them to stop it or he would stop servicing
them.
Q. So let me see if I've got this right. You show up there
to ask about this complaint where somebody said there was child
porn, and he tells you, "I'm in the credit card verification
business. Occasionally something like this comes through. I
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SUPER - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 680
tell them to stop it; if they don't I cut them off."
A. That's correct.
Q. And you took the man at his word.
A. Right.
Q. And you were how long out of school?
A. About two to three months.
Q. Okay. And with that two to three months' experience you
took a man at his word.
A. Correct.
Q. And you didn't go a step further with it.
A. The only other step I did was talk to my supervisor about
Q. And you relayed what you just relayed, hey, it
occasionally happens, he warns them, and it looks like there's
nothing here.
A. Exactly. My supervisor who at the time had 13 years
experience told me, hey, doesn't seem like there's anything
there. Let's send this up to Dallas and you're done.
Q. Now, Agent Super, did you have any idea that Thomas Reedy
and Landslide and Janice Reedy had a financial agreement with
foreign webmasters where they would -- foreign webmasters who
supplied child pornography on the internet?
A. No.
Q. Where they would keep 40 percent of the income that was
derived from child pornography and forward on 60 percent to the
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SUPER - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 681
webmasters that hosted the child pornography?
A. No, I wasn't aware of that.
Q. You didn't have a clue, did you?
A. No.
Q. Did you have a clue as to whether or not Mr. Reedy knew
that those sites were up and running and that he was monitoring
them?
A. No.
Q. Did you have a clue that he would sometimes chastise a
webmaster for his "lack of content" if customers complained
that it wasn't dirty enough?
A. No.
Q. You didn't know any of that back when you dropped by that
office?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever meet the man in person, by the way?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. This was all just a quick phone call?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And did you have a clue that Children of God was
still running in 1999?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. And this was an inquiry you made in the summer of '97?
A. That is correct.
Q. Okay. Now, you say your second time that you had contact
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SUPER - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 682
with him was over this chief of police from Sri Lanka's credit
card. Do you know whether the chief's kid was buying adult
porn or child porn?
A. I think that the web site in question -- I can't remember
the name of it and I wouldn't be able to tell you if it was
child porn or regular porn.
Q. Did the name bring to mind that it might be children?
A. No. It didn't have anything child mentioned in it.
Q. So it was like, oh, the chief's kid got his credit card
and looked at some pictures.
A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. And the complaint was the chief thought somebody
was adding something to his charge card and for y'all to go
look at it.
A. That is correct.
Q. But, again, you don't know which one it was, but you
certainly had no reason to think it was child porn?
A. That is correct.
Q. Now, you say you wanted to try to see if maybe, even
though you just had a couple of months training, you thought
maybe this guy might be a good source of information in the
event child porn came through his business, he could call you
and you could establish a rapport with somebody that might
actually be able to lead you to stuff down the line.
A. That is correct.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SUPER - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 683
Q. And you said, man, if this comes across your desk I wish
you would call us because we've got Innocent Images out here
that can investigate this.
A. That is correct.
Q. Did he call you ever, Agent Super?
A. No. I never had any contact with him between the August
'97 time period until I had a lead from Hong Kong and he called
and said did you get what you needed and, yes, thank you.
Other than that, nothing.
Q. But not one time did he ever pick up that phone and call
you and say, hey, this is what's going on. There is child
pornography.
A. No, he never called.
Q. Not one time.
A. No.
Q. Now, did you advise him, hey, you're doing a good job
there, buddy. You keep those sites rolling.
A. I never had occasion to speak with him to tell him that,
and I never did have a conversation like that.
Q. Okay. The brief little conversation you had was just
exactly what you described on two different occasions that
lasted (snaps fingers) that long.
A. That's correct.
Q. There was no investigation any further into it.
A. No.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
DAY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 684
MS. MOORE: I'll pass the witness.
THE COURT: Is there redirect?
MR. BALL: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down, sir. Thank you.
Any reason why Mr. Super may not be released?
MR. BALL: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You're free to go as well, sir.
Please call your next witness.
MR. BALL: Catrina Day, please.
THE COURT: Would you raise your right hand and be
sworn.
(The witness is sworn.)
THE COURT: You may be seated in the witness chair.
CATRINA DAY,
having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BALL:
Q. Could you tell us your name, please, ma'am.
A. My name is Catrina Day.
Q. And where do you live, Ms. Day?
A. On the outskirts of Manchester in England.
Q. All right. Have you lived your whole life in England?
A. Well, England and Scotland, in various parts, yes.
Q. All right. What do you do in England as far as work or
activity?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
DAY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 685
A. I am -- due to mild cerebral palsy and a night terror, it's
a sleep disorder, I am on incapacity benefit or invalidity
pension.
Q. All right. Do you engage in any activities in an effort
to try to generate some revenue?
A. Well, yes, I did join an AVS service.
Q. All right. Do you run any kind of web sites or have a
presence on the internet?
A. I do, yes.
Q. And what sort of web site do you run on the internet?
A. It's basically a site of adult content, just displaying
myself and another female adult.
Q. All right. Does your site have any child, what might be
called child pornography or child content?
A. No.
Q. Is there any particular subject matter within the
categories of adult-type material that people might want to
look at that your site focuses on?
A. Well, I mean, you do get a lot of people, adults, that are
interested in transsexual. So that is the main reason that
people would -- people who have a fetish for transsexuals and
that sort of thing.
Q. All right. And are there other sites that you're not
involved with on the internet that deal with the subject matter
of transsexuals?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
DAY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 686
A. Yes, plenty.
Q. All right. And does the focus of your site on
transsexality have anything to do with your own personal
circumstances?
A. Well, yes. I mean, initially I suppose it was that I -- I
quite enjoyed the fact of my new body shape when I started on
hormone treatment.
Q. All right, ma'am. Let me stop you right there. I guess
we need to go ahead then: Are you, in fact, a transsexual?
A. I am a transsexual.
Q. And can you tell us what that means?
A. It means that -- Well, five years ago I started on the
course of hormone treatment after seeing a psychiatrist. And
then after two and a half years when I was financially able to
afford the surgery, I then went for the surgery.
Q. All right. And in fact, at birth your gender was male; is
that correct?
A. That's right.
Q. Do you presently travel -- Did you travel to the United
States on a British passport?
A. I did.
Q. And what gender is that passport issued under?
A. Catrina Day, female.
Q. All right. When did you have the surgery that changed
your gender?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
DAY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 687
A. I had the surgery in March 1998 in Belgium, Europe.
Q. All right. And do you present yourself in your daily life
in the United Kingdom as a female?
A. I do, yes, as near as possible.
Q. All right. Prior to becoming -- engaging in the hormonal
treatments and so forth, when your gender was male, had you
ever been married?
A. I had been married on two occasions.
Q. All right. Did those two wives pass away from illnesses?
A. They did. My first wife had multiple sclerosis. She had
it when I met her. She was wheelchair bound. I felt a need to
be needed and she needed to be cared for. And so we met and
within a short period of time --
MS. MOORE: Judge, I'm going to object to the
relevance of his first wife and his second wife.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. BALL:
Q. You said you were married on two occasions and those
marriages concluded with the death of your wives?
A. That's right.
Q. So were you operating in the United Kingdom, at least at
that time as a male gender?
A. I was a male, yes.
Q. A11 right. Now, when you went into -- Let's talk about
the web site. Did you become involved or use with your web
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
DAY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 688
site anything known as an adult verification service?
A. I did.
Q. All right. Did you ever have occasion to use the adult
verification service operated in the United States known as
Landslide, KeyZ, AVS?
A. I did.
Q. All right. Do you recall about when that might have been?
A. Sorry. Could you repeat the question?
Q. Yes. Can you recall when that might have been
approximately?
A. I think it would be about four years ago, approximately.
Q. All right. And was that particular AVS service the first
one that you engaged in business with?
A. I think it was possibly one of the first ones, yes.
Q. Did you use other AVS type services from other companies?
A. Yes. I did use a company called Adult Jack, but when I
found -- I had many people visiting my site but not joining on
my site so it was not a very financial gain whatsoever to me.
Q. All right. Does the web site you currently offer
presently use any kind of AVS type service?
A. It does, yes.
Q. What is that business called?
A. Real AVS.
THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry. Could you repeat
that, please.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
DAY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 689
THE WITNESS: Real AVS.
THE COURT REPORTER: Thank you.
BY MR. BALL:
Q. R-E-A-L AVS.
And when you got involved with the Landslide AVS type
service, did you have to travel to the United States or visit
with those folks?
A. No.
Q. Were you able to do that over your computer?
A. I was.
Q. All right. And was the signup participation process with
Landslide's AVS service particularly difficult or not
difficult?
A. Well, it wasn't difficult, but what you generally have to
do with I think most AVSs, you have to agree not to put certain
content on the site.
Q. All right. Now, what we're talking about, the content on
the site, does that refer to pictures or images that the
viewers see that access the site?
A. Yes, that's right.
Q. Who controlled, with regard to your experience with
Landslide, AVS, who controlled the content of the web site you
ran?
A. Me.
Q. All right. And was that content hosted in the United
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
DAY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 690
States with Landslide or was it hosted elsewhere?
A. Where? It was posted with Landslide but it was by FTP,
what is known as a file transfer protocol, which I would
operate from my home computer and I would send the images via
the FTP protocol to Landslide's servers.
Q. All right. Were the images stored on Landslide servers or
stored on your computer?
A. They would have been stored on Landslide servers.
Q. All right. And when someone wanted to purchase your site
when you operated with Landslide, can you tell us a little bit
about how that worked?
A. Well, what would happen is on my instruction page, which
would be very soft, nonexplicit scenes, there would be a little
box or whatever saying Landslide; to join Landslide, click
here. The person would click on the Landslide button and they
would then be presented with a form in order to give their
credit card details and to perhaps choose a password and a user
name.
Q. All right. Who would do the verification of the credit
card as to whether it was valid and so forth?
A. Landslide.
Q. And after a person was approved, where would they be
allowed admittance? To your site? Where were they directed at
that point?
A. I think what would happen they would then be given a
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
DAY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 691
multitude of sites they could choose to go to. I mean, they
could either go directly back to my site, to the main page, to
see the contents of my page, or, I mean, it might just be a
question of they happen to be on my page and decided they may
not have an interest in transsexuals but wanted to join an
adult verification system. But because it was my web site that
they joined through, then I would get the commission from that
web site.
Q. All right. Do you recall what the price was and what your
percentage was?
A. I've forgotten. I think it was various. One month's
membership was X number of dollars. Six months. I think most
of the AVSs, they tend to have a varying degree of membership,
depending on the length of time you're required to be with that
service.
Q. All right. And if someone wants to go on the internet and
find your service, how do they go about doing that?
A. Well, they might go to a search engine such as Yahoo, or
any of the -- Well, any of the search engines or whatever. And
they might type "transsexuals," "sex," or whatever. And then
they would be given a list of sites containing transsexuals.
The majority of them, I think, would be pornographic but then
there would be some like, say, for example, I have one site
which is totally nonpornographic which is a site mainly
intended to giving information for other people wishing to
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
DAY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 692
receive gender treatment.
Q. All right. And if you, when you originally create the
content for your web site, are you stuck with that or can you
change it?
A. I could change it in a moment. All I would need to do
would be to really to -- I would have what would be an index
and a content. And, now, the index was the directory page
which would have very soft porn photographs, and the content
page would contain the harder core pornographic sites. And all
it would take me to do is to swap photographs, to, say,
download the photographs of, say, me as a transsexual and I
could, in an instant, you know, if I were that inclined, which
I'm not, I could replace them with, say, child pornography
pictures.
Q. Would there be anything that would be required of you to
contact the AVS service to say, "I'm changing my content"?
A. I think they would like me to, but there is no way, to my
knowledge, that an AVS service would be able to tell that my
content changed without actually initially filtering through -
going through all the AVS site's.
Q. All right. In order to determine whether your site had
any particular content, would they have to actually go and look
in order to determine whether your site had any particular
content? Would the AVS simply have to go look?
A. They would have to look on the content pages to see what
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
DAY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 693
was there.
Q. And have you, in fact, in running a web site made changes
on your site from time to time?
A. I have made changes early on. I haven't done any major
changes for a couple of years because of my -- I don't because
I put on a few years and a few pounds and so I don't consider I
would be as attractive to my viewers of the AVS.
Q. All right. Now, what sort of -- can you give us an idea
of what sort of income you get from your web site there in
Manchester, England?
A. It ranges from $30 -- today, a minimum, and some months I
think I've had to a maximum of, say, $200.
Q. All right. And when you made changes on your site, on the
occasions that you might have made some changes on the site,
did you have to contact Landslide or Mr. Reedy to do that?
A. No.
Q. Who was responsible for those content changes?
A. The content within the web site and within every web site,
whether pornographic or not, is the responsibility of the
person placing the content, whether it be Green Cities, which
is a totally nonporonographic site. It does state in their
rules and regulations that the person that is placing the
content on the site is the sole person that is responsible for
that information, what they put on the site.
Q. And when you joined up with Landslide's AVS service, did
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
DAY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 694
you understand that you had any agreements or responsibilities
not to display child pornography?
A. Yes. I think in one of the things on the majority of AVSs
it will state no beastality and no child pornography.
Q. All right. Did you ever, in your conducting of business
with Landslide, see anything about their services that
suggested to you that there was child pornography on their
system?
A. Not at all.
Q. If you had seen such type of material, what would have
been your response to it?
A. I think initially I would have contacted the owner of the
sites and informed them of the content. But I would also
inform them that I would feel that in order to protect myself
and in order also to stop what was going on, I would also
consider it my duty to inform the police.
Q. All right. Do you have any involvement with child
pornography at all?
A. None whatsoever.
MR. BALL: Thank you, ma'am.
I'll pass the witness.
THE COURT: Additional direct?
MR. HEISKELL: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Will there be cross?
MS. MOORE: Yes, Your Honor, just briefly.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
DAY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 695
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Ms. Day, what was your name that you were born with when
you were a man?
A. Gerrard Daily.
Q. Gerrard Daily?
A. That's right.
Q. So you changed the last name as well?
A. I did.
Q. Okay. And what was the name of your web site?
A. Well, there's various. Transsexual Delights.
Q. Transsexual Delights?
A. Yes, that's one. I think I've got various names, but the
contents on all of the web sites are very much the same. It's
the same photographs.
Q. How many web sites do you have?
A. I don't know. I might -- because there are various
things. I think Porn City I might have one or two with, but,
as I say, they are the same content. There's -- I've forgotten
the name, but a lot of them. What's happened is they haven't
-- I have not really registered them with the search engines so
they are not really that much publicized.
Q. And you say you had to agree not to put certain content on
your web site when you had your web site hosted through AVS?
A. Oh, definitely.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
DAY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 696
Q. And that dealt with child pornography?
A. I was definitely not allowed to put child pornography.
Q. But certainly there were no restrictions on what you put
on your site other than that; is that right?
A. Well, from what I gathered it was child pornography,
beastality.
Q. On your web site there were scenes of you urinating?
A. That's right.
Q. And scenes of you having sex with other women while you
were a woman -- since you've become a woman?
A. One woman, yes.
Q. And there were scenes of you -- before and after shots
while you were a man. Scenes of you with a penis?
A. Yes, there was ones while I was undergoing hormone
treatment.
Q. So you displayed all of that on your web site; is that
right?
A. That's right.
Q. But you don't know what kind of -- By the way, did you
ever communicate with Thomas Reedy?
A. Not really. Communicate with him? I might have
communicated, I think, to ask whether if there was a lull in --
I think there was certain times in the year when the income
would drop. I would make contact asking him what was
happening, and it would be the time of the year. I think it
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
DAY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 697
was holiday periods and what have you when people wouldn't join
AVSs, but there was no personal contact as being a friend or
anything like that.
Q. E-mails? Did you communicate through e-mails, or how was communication
made?
A. Just a short e-mail asking what was what regarding payment
or whatever.
Q. Okay. Was that to Thomas Reedy or Janice Reedy?
A. It would just be Landslide, Incorporated.
Q. And you don't know what communication either Thomas Reedy
or Janice Reedy may have had with other webmasters, do you?
A. Not at all.
Q. You don't'know if they sent e-mails and received e-mails
from a webmaster in Indonesia, R.W. Kusuma?
A. No.
Q. Do you know who Arief Dharmawan is?
A. No idea.
Q. Do you know the content on his sites?
A. Well, I believe -- Actually, I must say, just through the
reports and I know the reason I've been brought here, or asked
to come here is because --
Q. Well, I asked if you know the content of Arief Dharmawan's
site.
A. I've never been to any of these sites.
Q. Do you know Michael Yamin, also known as Miranda?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
DAY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 698
A. No idea.
Q. Do you know what the content of Michael Yamin, or
Miranda's, site may be?
A. No.
Q. Do you know what the communications between the Reedys and
Miranda has been?
A. No.
Q. Do you know a gentleman by the name of Boris Greenberg? A. No.
A. No.
Q. Did you know he is a webmaster from Russia?
A. I have no idea. The only thing I know is what I read in
the newspapers.
Q. Do you know the content of Boris Greenberg's site?
A. I gather from reading the newspapers.
Q. Not from newspapers, from viewing any web site?
A. No, definitely not.
Q. Do you know what communications there has been between the
defendants and Boris Greenberg?
A. None whatsoever.
Q. Have you ever heard of a webmaster named Hanny Ingganata?
A. No.
Q. Do you know the content of his web site?
A. No.
Q. You don't have any idea whether these people were engaged
in child pornography or not.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
DAY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 699
A. No. Just from the articles, what I read in the
newspapers.
Q. And you have no idea whether these defendants were also
involved in aiding and abetting that transportation of child
pornography.
A. I have no idea.
MS. MOORE: Pass the witness.
THE COURT: Redirect?
MR. BALL: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. Thank you.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURT: May this witness be released?
MS. MOORE: No objection from the government.
THE COURT: You're free to go as well.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
MR. BALL: May I approach, Judge, with counsel?
THE COURT: You don't need a record?
MR. BALL: No, sir.
(Off-record discussion.)
THE COURT: I think it would be best if we take an
early lunch break. That will give the time the attorneys need
to prepare some demonstrative evidence and make sure it runs
smoothly, and I've given them a little additional time. The
government finished a little earlier than they had told the
defendants so the defense had to scramble a little bit to get
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL IV, 700
the witnesses here. So with a little longer break I think we
can make things flow better.
So we'll return here at 1:15.
(Jury out, 11:40 a.m.)
THE COURT: I have taken the government's proposed
charge and interlineated changes. They are mostly cosmetic and
I wanted to give you a copy of my interlineation so you can see
what I have changed.
MR. BALL: All right.
THE COURT: And I do not have in my notebook any
objections from the defense on the charge.
MR. BALL: We may have a requested charge, but it
depends on some evidence this afternoon.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. BALL: And also the question of the defendants
testifying or not will be made at the noon hour.
THE COURT: Well, let me give each of you -- I only
made two. Can y'all share?
MR. BALL: Yes, we can share.
THE COURT: I already have the charge typed up, but I
would, rather than give you that one and have you wonder what
had been changed, I thought I would give you the copies with
the interlineation.
All right. See you at 1:15.
(Court in recess, 11:41 a.m. until 1:45 p.m.)
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
O'LEARY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 701
THE COURT: You may call your next witness.
MR. BALL: I will call Patrick O'Leary.
THE COURT: Please raise your right hand to be sworn.
(The witness is sworn.)
THE COURT: You may be seated, sir.
PATRICK MICHAEL O'LEARY,
having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BALL:
Q. Could you tell us your name, please, sir.
A. It's Patrick Michael 0'Leary.
Q. All right, sir. And where do you live? What city do you
live in?
A. I live in Southlake, Texas.
Q. All right. And where are you originally from?
A. I grew up on Long Island just outside of New York City.
Q, All right. And what do you -- How are you presently
employed or occupied? What do you do?
A. These days I'm self-employed. I own a very large internet
facility in Bedford, Texas.
Q. And where did you -- Did you attend any universities or
college?
A. I have a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering out
of Brooklyn Polytechnic.
Q. All right. And have I requested your assistance in the
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
O'LEARY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 702
representation of Thomas Reedy and Landslide with regard to
technical computer and internet matters?
A, Yes, you have.
Q. All right. And have you assisted me and you also have
been in assistance of Janice Reedy through her counsel,
Mr. Heiskell?
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. All right. In fact, I think earlier in the week during
some of the government's testimony you were present in court
seated over at a table over here listening to some of the
technical testimony; is that true?
A. On Tuesday, that's correct.
Q. All right. And do you do any consulting from time to time
in legal matters?
A. Yes. I do quite a bit of expert witness consulting in the
civil litigation area, supporting large companies that will
have a dispute, or an individual with a dispute against a
company. About 75 percent of my work is in that area.
Q. All right. In the area of civil law?
A. Civil law, yes.
Q. As opposed to criminal law, it's where someone might sue
someone else?
A. Two companies having a dispute, an individual and a
company, or two individuals that relate to internet matters or
technology matters.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
0'LEARY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 703
Q. All right. Can you tell the jury briefly what other
background besides your bachelor's of science in electrical
engineering you have that qualifies you to know anything about
the -- and I'm talking about educational matters first or
training about the computers and the internet.
A. Okay. For the last 13 years I've been working in high
technology areas of data processing, data communications, the
internet. I've worked in operations research for American
Airlines for quite a number of years. We worked on very large
routing models, capacity planning, yield management.
After that I worked in telecommunications. I worked for a
company in Farmers Branch called Lee Data, and then after that
I've worked -- Well, after that I went on to American Airlines.
At American Airlines I worked for such companies as Santa Fe
Railroads, Con-Rail, Ryder Truck, U-Haul. During my stay at
American Airlines I had the opportunity to go to Australia and
worked on a fares deregulation project, just helping the
government and the private industry go from a regulated market
to a deregulated market for airline fares.
Q. All right. Are you familiar with any computer languages?
A. I can program in probably ten to fifteen different
languages.
Q. Could you give us an example of what some of those might
be?
A. C, C++, Java, PHP, Assembly Language, COBOL, FORTRAN, Wide
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
O'LEARY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 704
Five, various shell scripting languages, Shell Script, Born
Shell, K Shell, the Bad Shell, Java Script. I could go on for
an hour.
Q. Okay. Let's not. Operating systems, are you familiar
with a variety of operating systems?
A. Yes. My strongest background is in the Unix area, which
is what 60 percent, 70 percent, of the internet runs on.
Q. All right. Is there an operating system called MS DOS?
A. MS DOS is one of the first versions of an operating system
that Microsoft produced in the late '80s, early '90s.
Q. Does MS stand for Microsoft?
A. I believe so, yes.
Q. All right. The home computers that most folks have, are
they DOS based operating systems, typically?
A. For the most part they're DOS based. They like to say
that they're Windows based these days, or people are running
Apple or MacIntosh.
Q. All right. And if we compare MS DOS or DOS based systems
with, I think you said Unix, which one is more commonly used in
the internet applications?
A. Unix. Unix far dominates DOS based applications.
Q. All right.
A. As far as back in server technology, the infrastructure
and the backbone of the internet, web servers.
Q. All right. Now, are you also familiar with a variety of
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
O'LEARY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 705
hardware components used in the internet and computer
businesses?
A. Sure. In all the servers that I've built over the years,
I mean, we've done everything from network cards, videocards,
disk drives, different device drivers that will control disk
drives, video systems.
Before we had a little bit of a video problem here that we
had to fix on the fly, so, yes, having a background in
electrical engineering, I tend to get close to the components
and the lower details of the computer.
Q. All right. Did at some point in your professional life,
did you come to begin a business of your own?
A. Yes. In 1990 I discovered a bulletin board system called
Match Maker, Match Maker BBS. Bulletin board systems were
really the pioneer of what today is known as the internet. A
bulletin board system back then would contain a lot of content
that users would dial into and use.
The content would be a sports-type venue or maybe a
classifieds-type venue. And T stumbled upon something called
Match Maker while I was at American Airlines. I was asked to
go search and find some file transfer utilities for the Ansett
project, that being the fares deregulation project between
American Airlines and Ansett Airlines down in Australia.
In the process of finding that source code, I discovered
the Match Maker Unix network.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
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Q. All right. What was the business ultimately called that
you developed?
A. Over the last ten years we developed it from a BBS into
the largest, self-funded, singles dating e-commerce site on the
internet.
Q. And it was called what, sir?
A. Matchmaker.com.
Q. All right. And did I understand correctly, this was a
dating-type service or matching up single people through use of
the internet and your service?
A. It allowed people to come together. They would come in
and create a profile on the system answering some questions and
essays about themselves. And then people could get together
for platonic and romantic-type matching.
Q. All right. And did this web site, matchmaker.com,
generate income?
A. Yes. In 1999, we did about $5.5 million in sales.
Q. All right. And did I hear you say it became the largest
of that type of web site, singles --
A. Yes. When I was running the company, it was the largest
of its kind on the internet. We were growing at 8 percent a
month, and up until February of '99 we were completely
self-funded and self-sufficient.
Q. All right. And after growing that business, did you
ultimately -- was it ultimately sold?
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A. This past July, on July 31st, it was sold to Lycos, a very
large search engine out of Boston, Massachusetts, for $45
million.
Q. All right. And who was the largest stockholder in
matchmaker.com at the time of its sale?
A. I was the largest shareholder. I held almost 2.4 million
shares.
Q. All right. And if you don't mind my asking, what was your
end as far as the sale?
A. I did rather well; almost $2.4 million.
Q. All right. Are you currently involved in other activities
regarding development of other internet-type businesses?
A. Yes. With the money I received from Match Maker,
ironically I was able to go and purchase back a lot of the
assets that I originally purchased years ago that became
matchmaker.com. I was allowed to purchase those assets back,
the physical assets that were not going to leave the state.
And I've taken those assets and the property in Bedford, Texas,
right off the highway on Central Drive, and I've taken those
assets and the facility and I'm developing what is referred to
as an incubator or accelerator for new start-up companies. My
objective is to help smaller companies that are in the startup
stages basically get out the door, get started, and not have to
make the same mistakes that I've made. And I can help them
with my experiences.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
O'LEARY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 708
Q. All right. And do you have a number of web sites that
you're involved with? I don't want you to list them all --
A. Yes.
Q. -- in the interest of time.
A. One of the bigger areas that I'm working on is a portal
for expert witnesses. The way I looked at it is being able to
develop the largest singles site on the internet, matching
people for romantic and platonic reasons, I kind of saw an
opportunity that I would be able to help attorneys and experts
get together for the purposes of litigation support.
Q. All right. Now, I want to direct your attention to the
matter at hand here. Oh, incidentally, have you testified in
the United States District Court in a criminal matter as an
expert witness?
A. Yes, in a probation hearing earlier this year.
Q. Was that in the Eastern District of Texas?
A. I believe so, yes.
Q. All right. Now, do you consider yourself very
knowledgeable and have a great deal of expertise in the area of
the internet?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Did you bring with you a preparation, a slide preparation,
I think with Power Point software, that would assist and aid
you in your testimony concerning various aspects of the
internet?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
O'LEARY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 709
A. Yes. I have three small presentations.
Q. All right. And are you generally familiar with the
operations, both from listening to government testimony and
perhaps looking at exhibits, the operation of Landslide,
Incorporated?
A. Yes. I'm familiar with the business model.
Q. All right. If we could, you've got a computer in front of
you that will -- and can you pull things up?
A. Sure.
Q. I want to ask you to just give a basic brief overview of
the internet in simple terms. We've heard a lot of testimony
this week, sometimes bogged down in detail. If you could
describe the internet for us, please.
THE COURT: I think we've had sufficient testimony
about what the internet is, unless you have something new to
add. Is there something that's peculiar to your case that you
think we ought to know?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, this is real short.
THE COURT: Well, I know that.
MR. BALL: Well, Judge, because of the substantial
amount of information that's been -- We started out with a
description of the internet at the beginning, and now we've
gone through a lot of technical material. And I thought it
might be an assistance to the jury with some graphics to show
the internet in general.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
O'LEARY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 710
BY MR. BALL:
Q. Let's move to the next series of slides. Did you prepare
a slide presentation concerning Landslide and how the
transactions would occur over the internet?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And would that assist you in describing the
passage of information from one location to the other when
someone would sign up with Landslide?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Could you pull the first slide up on that?
A. Sure.
Q. I think that's a different file. Can we go to the second
series. I think it's called "First Time AVS."
All right, sir. Can you tell us what happens -- Is there
something different between the first time user of an AVS
system and subsequent use?
A. Yes. The first time a user would go to an AVS, adult
verification system, differs from subsequent connections to an
AVS in that the first time they're typically giving a credit
card and address information to actually get that first time
user name and password.
Q. All right. If you could go through the slides describing
that first time use rather quickly and describe them, please.
A. The user has to go to the adult site to where they're
going to be able to -- that they're looking to seek the adult
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
O'LEARY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 711
content. And so they'll connect through the internet to the
adult site, just like any other web site that's out there,
okay?
The adult site then will redirect them. When they get
over there and want to join, the adult site then has to
redirect them back to an adult verification system. There's
many different adult verification systems. If you were to go
to Yahoo and do a query or a search on adult verification, you
would find there's 30 plus companies out there doing the very
-- doing almost the exact same business as KeyZ and Landslide.
So they go to an adult verification system, and from there
they will be presented with the information needed to get the
address and password -- excuse me, the user name and password.
And that being address, zip code, credit card information, all
that stuff gets entered in. The adult verification system will
then run that charge, okay, for them and validate that the user
has a valid credit card and the charge runs through. And by
the user having a credit card, the user is of the proper age to
see this content.
So then the adult verification system will send back to -
the user will enter the information and that will go to the
adult verification system, and then the adult verification
system will connect with the bank, okay, the credit card
company, and run the charge. From there what will happen -
Q. Let me stop you right there for a moment. In these
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
O'LEARY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 712
graphics, for example here, you don't have the adult content
web site on the graphic. Are they involved at this particular
moment that this transaction is going on?
A. No. The information has been collected from the user,
okay, that is seeking the content, and has been given to the
adult verification system. The adult verification system is
dialing out, or connecting out, over the internet to the bank
that actually collects the money.
Q. All right.
A. The bank will then -- Typically it's going to the bank and
then it connects to a clearing house and then on to the user's
bank, the user's own credit card banking company that processes
the charge. And then if the user has the proper credit, it
will then come back and issue an approval code. It will either
issue an approval or a denial. So with the approval being, you
know, issued, what will happen is, okay -- Well, the credit
card company sends the information back, approved or denied.
And then the user, once that's done, then the user -- Excuse
me? The adult verification system will send a user name and
password back to the user at that point.
Q. All right. And at this point the bank is not in the loop
here.
A. I'm sorry?
Q. And at this point, like the bank dropped out of the
loop.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
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A. That's correct. The bank ran the charge, told Landslide
that the card is good, and then passed a message back. Now,
the adult verification system is then now going to contact the
user with a user name and password.
Q. All right. Let's go to the next one.
A. The user then is returned back to the adult web site,
okay, and the user has the ability to then log in.
Q. All right. On this particular graphic, there's no arrow
between KeyZ and any of the other three entities.
A. That's correct. The adult verification is now completely
out of the loop.
Q. All right. And go to the next one, please.
A. At this point the user is able to view the pornographic
material. Content is only transferred between the user and the
adult web site.
Q. All right. I don't see a graphic here for KeyZ or the
adult verification service. Are they in this particular loop
of transactions?
A. They're completely out of the loop at this point. They
have nothing to do with the content being transferred back and
forth between the web site and the user.
Q. All right. Could we go to the next one, please.
A. The material transferred over at the adult web site or any
other web site. The material is transferred back and forth via
the internet to the user. No pornographic material or content
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
O'LEARY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 714
of any kind is ever transferred to or from the adult
verification system. In this slide, Landslide.
Q. Is that the end of that series of slides?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, let's suppose a person has done this and the viewer,
the subscriber if you will, and they decide in a few days they
want to go back and look at the material again. Is there a
little bit of difference in the flow and transfer in that
subsequent transaction?
A. Yes. There's just a minor difference. All future AVS
transactions, the user goes back to the adult web site, the
user goes to the member's log-in, because now they already have
a valid user name and password. They go to the user -- the
member log-in. They enter their name, their user name and
password. The adult checks the user name and password with the
AVS, and with this slide I'm pointing out Landslide. Landslide
will look that information up in its database and will send a
message back to the adult web site telling them that, yes, it
is a valid user -- It will send a message back saying whether
it's valid or not.
If the user information is not valid, then the user is
redirected to a policy page or a membership signup page, which
would then repeat the process of the first series of slides.
Q. All right.
A. If the user has a valid ID, the user is logged into the
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
O'LEARY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 715
adult web site.
Q. All right. On this particular graphic there's no arrow to
the AVS or KeyZ at this point. Are they involved in the loop
of this transaction?
A. No. The user is logging into the adult web site. The
adult verification system is out of the loop.
Q. All right.
A. The user -- Just as before, the user can view the
pornographic material. Content is transferred only between the
user and the adult web site.
Q. All right. And is KeyZ or the AVS involved in this
transaction?
A. No, they're gone, they're out of the loop.
Q. All right. And the next slide.
A. And just like before, the only pornographic material that
is transferred is between the user and the adult web site. No
pornographic material of any kind is transferred to or from
Landslide.
Q. Okay.
THE COURT: Mr. O'Leary, you have a New York mouth,
and we've got Texas ears, so you're going to have to slow down
a little bit. Not so much for me, but my court reporter has to
take down every word you say. So if you'd just slow it down a
little bit. You enunciate pretty well and distinctly, but it's
just pretty rapid.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
O'LEARY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 716
BY MR. BALL:
Q. Mr. O'Leary, that's the end of the slides. Why don't you
cut that off and we can resume.
Are you familiar with something on the internet called
search engines?
A. Yes.
Q. What are search engines?
A. Search engines are typically the place where users will go
to find content on the internet.
Q. Can you name some example companies that might be familiar
to people that surf the internet?
A. Typically we in the industry consider that there are eight
real significant search engines. There's Yahoo, Infoseek,
Excite, HotBot, Lycos, Northern Light, webCrawler, Magellan,
Open Directory. I think that covers it.
Q. All right. One of those names was Lycos. Is that the
same company that you sold Match Maker to?
A. Lycos is the company that bought us for $45 million, yes.
Q. Now, if I want to look at content on the internet, say I'm
interested in something to do with baseball or something, how
does that work for me, the search engine?
A. Users will go to a search engine. I like to go to
something called Yahoo. It's considered to be the biggest
search engine out there. Well, it's really called a directory,
but directory/search engine, they're basically the same thing.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
O'LEARY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 717
You go to something like Yahoo. You'll type a key word,
"baseball." And then up will come various sites, probably
thousands of sites that will have baseball content on them.
Q. All right. Baseball is a pretty broad term. Suppose I
want baseball that has to do with the Texas Ranger baseball
team. Can I narrow down the number of things that come up?
A. The search engine technology these days has really gotten
to the point where you can put very significant queries, or
detailed queries in there, that being questions. You could put
"Texas Rangers," "Texas Rangers Baseball Club," and it will
narrow you down right to that specific content.
Q. If you want to look up adult content, do these search
engines allow you to type in phrases like "Lolita" or "sex" or
things like that and pull up adult-type web sites?
A. Yes. You go type something like "sex," sex is probably
the number -- is the seventh word on the inter -- seventh most
searched for word on the internet. And you can verify that
with something called Word Spot. That's a company that
provides the most typed words in search engines to webmasters
such that they can structure their pages so they get high
relevancy so they can get high ratings so they can go to the
top of the search engines. "Sex" is probably like number
seven.
Q. All right.
A. "Free" is number one.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
O'LEARY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 718
Q. All right. "Free"?
A. "Free."
Q. As in no cost?
A. People take the word F-R-E-E in the search engine just to
see what comes up.
Q. To see what they might get for free?
A. Right.
Q. Okay. Are you familiar with banners or banner exchange
programs as they are used on the internet?
A. Yes. Banners is the method that Match Maker was built on
to take it to a multi-million dollar level. We used to spend
-- Oh, gosh, we used to spend probably close to $200,000 a
month buying banners on the internet.
Q. All right. And did you do that -- You did that -- Did you
do that -- I mean, did it work?
A. Well, I went from something that was started in my
apartment in Arlington, Texas, to a company with 140 employees
that sold out for $45 million.
Q. All right. And are there a number of companies involved
in banner exchanges and sales?
A. Yes. One of the early banner exchange programs that we
used was something called Link Exchange. It was just a small
thing that started and grew to be the largest banner exchange
program out there. Linkexchange.com, you'd go to it and you
could fill out some information and upload a banner to it and
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
O'LEARY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 719
what would happen is you would display -- They would give you
some syntax to put back on your web site. You'd put that on
your web site. You would display two banners, and for every
two banners that you would display, they would then turn around
and display your banner once elsewhere on the network. The
other banner that makes up for the two to one, they would use
that to promote the Link Exchange itself. And then Link
Exchange became -- this is kind of neat -- Link Exchange became
the largest banner exchange program, and it was purchased by
Microsoft, of all companies, for $250 million.
Q. A11 right. This banner exchange-type program, is it
possible for a webmaster who might be wanting to use banner
exchanges to create banners and send those banners to be posted
on other people's pages from a remote location?
A. Yes. Before Microsoft owned Link Exchange, you could
upload any banner to it and it would put it out on the network.
They did not look at the banners in any shape or form to see
what was on them, and you could put any banner saying anything
you wanted out there. It would go out there.
We used Link Exchange in the early days and other banner
exchange programs, and we had to discontinue it because we had
our competition's banners appearing on our web site, and that
was not a good thing if you're trying to build a company.
Q. All right. So would Link Exchange actually submit banners
to your site --
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
O'LEARY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 720
A. Yes.
Q. -- that were not with your approval?
A. Well, you would put the banner on your site, and what
would happen is they would count the number of times that you
presented that banner, okay? And when you reached a certain
threshold, you then qualified for your banner that you uploaded
to their site to then be distributed out on the internet.
Q. All right. And if you were participating in that process,
could you --
A. It's a reciprocal process, yes.
Q. If you were participating in that reciprocal process,
could you control which types of ads were coming to you if you
decided to participate in it?
A. In the early days, no. Today, they have a little bit more
control on it.
Q. All right. The internet itself, are you familiar with a
descriptive term that it is a dynamic system?
A. That's the neat thing about the internet, is that you can
actually reach masses amount of people very quickly, so you can
react to market changes and business market changes and you can
change the presence of your business on the internet instantly.
Today I can have one web page up, one home page up; and
tomorrow I can have a completely different look and feel.
Q. All right.
A. Even an hour later, I can have a different look and feel.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
O'LEARY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 721
Q. Okay. So if you want to change your web page, can you do
that rather quickly?
A. Yes.
Q. Do two people going to the same URL or domain name at the
same time necessarily see the same material?
A. No. You can do something called cloaking,
C-L-O-A-K-I-N-G. And what thi-s technique does is it looks at
the IP address.
Q. Is that the numbers like we've seen maybe 205 dot and some
other numbers?
A. Yes. 205, 223, yes. Typically it's four groups of
numbers separated by periods. It's kind of like a zip code to
where a computer lives on the internet.
Q. How does this cloaking work using the IP addresses?
A. What will happen is when a user sends out a request to a
web site, inside the information, the information that is sent
over to the web server, is a whole series of environment
parameters, and one of those things is the IP address of who is
contacting you. And that information, you can look at that
information and then determine, well, if it's this IP address,
I put up this content; if it's this IP address, I put up this
content. You can completely change it, and the way we used to
use that technique is when I wanted to score high relevancies
in the search engines -- Well, I need to back up and explain
something.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
O'LEARY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 722
Q. Explain relevancies in search engines. Is that what
you --
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Explain that real briefly.
A. Before I had the money to buy banners on Yahoo and
Infoseek and so forth, I had to back up and reverse engineer
how the search engines really worked, and I went in and
understand everything that they did as far as for indexing so
that you could get to the top of the page.
You know, you type the word "baseball," you're going to
see thousands of listings. So I wanted to be number two or
number three. So what I used to do is I would look at -- the
request is coming in, I would look at the IP address of the
request coming in and I had a database of all the IP addresses
of the search engines. When it was a search engine coming
in --
Q. Slow down just a little bit.
A. Okay. I'm sorry. When it was a search engine coming in,
I would put up a different web page, okay, that would give me a
higher relevancy in the search engine.
When it wasn't a search engine IP address, I would put up
my normal content, because that was meant it was another user
entering my site. And this enabled me to score high
relevancies in the search engines, and that's how I was able to
grow matchmaker.com enough to the point where that money I
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
O'LEARY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 723
reinvested and put it back into banner advertising, hence
growing to the largest singles site on the internet.
Q. All right.
A. Now, the reason those IP addresses you can do that, is
because they're static IP addresses, okay? A web server will
have a static IP address. It means it's always the same. It
never changes. And a user, okay, that has a static IP address,
if they have a dedicated connection like a DSL line or an ISDN
line, they have a dedicated connection, they too always have a
static IP address. So the IP address is always constant so you
can track that, yeah, I know that user is doing something,
okay, and I know that user and I can put up this content to
that user just like I did for the search engines.
I knew that Yahoo was coming to me. I knew that Infoseek
was coming to me, so I did what is called a bait and switch
technique. I knew -- I would bait the search engine and then,
bam, out it would go with the appropriate content.
Q. All right. The transactions on the internet, is there a
lot of automation?
A. Yes. You can write scripts and programs that run on the
back end of the web servers that will actually go out and query
databases on the back end, and it's completely automated.
Q. If one wants to run a web site, an adult verification
service, can they program it in any kind of a way where the
majority of it is automated?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
0'LEARY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 724
A. Yes. You would typically design a database and put the
information in the database. The information would come in,
code would be written with a certain logic to it, and then it
would just run all the time, just 24 by seven. Computers don't
get tired.
Q. And is that without human intervention at that point?
A. That is without human intervention, correct.
Q. All right. Let me ask you about occasionally on some of
the government's exhibits, there might be something on a -- an
image of a web page that would be a little box that has maybe a
red X in it. Are you familiar with what I'm referring to?
A. I believe you're referring to like a broken image.
Q. Yes, sir.
A. You go to a web site -- you go to a web page, okay, and,
you know, we'll go there and we'll get what is the main -- what
-- the page that comes back. But, really, when you -- actually
to get a web page to come to your browser, it's a series of
transactions back and forth to the web server. The first time
it will go out, will get the basic page, okay, and inside that
page there is syntax or code, if you will, that references the
objects, like images that make up that page.
Those objects and the web browser then has to make
subsequent connections back to the web server to get that
information, okay? And in the case of what you're asking
about, those broken images, those were image syntax, image
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
O'LEARY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 725
code, that was inside the web page, the code that was going to
say "this is what I want to see," but the destination for where
that image existed on the internet was invalid. So what your
browser will do, or your web server, will send back a broken
image, just so you see something there.
Q. All right. Are you familiar with something called
"virtual images" where an individual might be able to create a
picture using computer technology?
A. Sure. I mean, just about any artist can create a picture
of me or you, or they can just make up a person or an object or
something just off the top of their head. It doesn't have to
be a real person, and a lot of large publishing companies do
this to save on royalties.
Q. All right. So when you say "publishing companies saving
royalties," would that be so they won't have to pay a model?
A. I'm sorry. Would you say that again?
Q. When you say "publishing companies saving money on
royalties," is that so they don't have to pay a model?
A. Yeah, they don't have to pay the model fees.
Q. Because the image is of someone that didn't ever really
exist?
A. Right. So they'll just create an image off the top of
their head that is nobody.
Q. All right. Are some of these -- Does the quality of those
vary from very good to not so good?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
O'LEARY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 726
A. Oh, sure, yes.
Q. All right. The company Network Solutions that sells
domain names, you're familiar with them?
A. Yes. Yes, I've registered quite a number of thousands of
domains.
Q. All right. Are there other companies now permitted with
a license from Network Solutions to sell domain names, also?
A. Yes. Domain names are -- There's probably a couple
hundred companies that you can register a domain name with, but
Network Solutions controls the master database.
Q. All right. And if you register a domain name with one of
those other companies, does Network Solutions receive any of
the proceeds?
A. Network Solutions does very well on the registering of
domains. They receive $9 for every domain on the internet that
gets registered regardless of who you register it through.
Q. All right.
A. Excuse me. $9 per domain per year, residually recurring
every year.
Q. All right. I want to talk to you briefly about something
called thumbnails. Are you familiar with that?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Those smaller images that are referred to as
thumbnails, when you click on one to make it bigger, what
occurs there actually?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
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A. When you click on that image, it goes to a bigger image.
They're typically two separate images. You're clicking on it.
It's a link. It goes out and loads a new web page, and inside
that web page they will refer you to a completely separate
image of a larger size.
Q. Okay. Why is it not just simply expanding the thumbnail
bigger through some process?
A. Well, if you took a smaller image and tried to expand it
on the fly, you would lose the resolution when you would try to
expand it, and it would be blurry and it would not have the
quality of the original picture.
If you took a larger image and tried to reduce it down,
you would use a tremendous amount of bandwidth to transport
that image, and that would be absolutely silly, because you
would have a page of thumbnails and you would be sending large
amounts of images, large file sizes, and consuming a lot of
your bandwidth to the user's browser. And he or she may never
click on those images, so it's just not -- you're not utilizing
your internet connection very well.
Q. All right. Can thumbnails be created automatically by
software programs?
A. Yes. I personally have written code to do that. There
are libraries out there that will link into your code that will
give you a whole series of functions or tools, if you will,
that you can go up in memory, create an image by a certain
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
O'LEARY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 728
size, width, and height, and you can draw on it and you can do
just about anything. A lot of times people will take images
that have been created and they'll put watermarks on them.
Those watermarks are done with code on the fly.
Q. All right. Are you familiar with a program called Paint
Shop Pro?
A. Reasonably so.
Q. All right. Is there anything in Paint Shop Pro that if
you have a series of images in a file that when you browse that
file it automatically thumbnails the images?
A. As you would mouse over it or something like that, as, you
know, you're looking to where the files live on the disk,
typically it will put a small little thumbnail as you move
around and look at the file names.
Q. All right.
MR. BALL: I believe that's all. Thank you, sir.
I'll pass the witness.
THE COURT: Do you have additional direct?
MR. HEISKELL: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Cross?
MS. MOORE: Yes, Your Honor.
THE WITNESS: My speaking so fast made me thirsty.
Is that all right?
MS. MOORE: Sure. Are you okay?
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
O'LEARY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 729
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. All right. Mr. O'Leary, how is it that you know how
Landslide operated?
A. (Pause.) How would I know?
Q. Yes, sir. You've been up here showing us, you know, Power
Point presentation on how the operations of Landslide and how
it operated. So my question is: How do you know how it
operated?
A. I did some research. I went out to Yahoo. I typed the
key word phrase "adult verification." Thirty companies came
up. I clicked on three or four of them, and they all have what
they call an FAQ, frequently asked questions. When I looked
at the frequently asked questions it explains how we work,
and they went through 20 steps explaining exactly how they
work.
Q. Okay. So you don't -- The only way you know is from your
research off the internet of what Landslide would have put on
the internet about themselves.
A. Say that again. I'm sorry?
Q. How you know about the operations of Landslide is by
getting on and searching this information off the internet,
right, which is information that Landslide had provided about
themselves.
A. (Pause) Well, I would rather imagine that if there's 30
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
O'LEARY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 730
companies doing it pretty much the same way, it would be a
reasonably good assumption that Landslide was doing it the same
way.
Q. That's a speculation, though, isn't it, sir? You are
assuming that Landslide runs its business like 30 other
companies.
A. Well, Yahoo and eight other search engines run each
other's business the same way.
Q. I'm asking you how you know that Landslide runs its
business like 30 other companies. You're assuming that, aren't
you?
A. (Pause.)
Q. Is that a hard question?
A. I have 13 years of experience in data processing. I
understand how systems are put together.
Q. Okay. Well, how many of these 30 other companies are
providing access to child pornography sites?
A. Well, why don't you go to a few of them and type "Lolita"
and "Child Porn."
Q. Why don't I do it? I'm asking you. You said you know how
Landslide operated because you've got 13 years of experience.
You said you went and you pulled up AVS and there were 30
companies.
A. Yes.
Q. So I'm asking you: How many of those 30 companies are
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
O'LEARY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 731
today providing access to child pornography sites?
A. Okay. Just go to some of those sites. They will list the
sites right there, boldly right there on their web site, and
they will give you a list of the thousands of sites that they
go to, and they're there. The names are right there boldly on
the web site. Go to adultcheck.com. It's there, ma'am.
Q. And you will know if they are providing access to child
pornography.
A. I did not go in to see if it was child pornography, but if
I see the name "Child In Pain" on Adult Check or Adults
Verification, I'm going to assume it's --
Q. Did you see Child In Pain?
A. I'm sorry?
Q. Did you see the words "child" and "pain"?
A. I did not go to that web site, no.
Q. Okay. So you can't say that Landslide is operating its
business like these 30 other companies, right? You would have
to only assume that.
A. I believe it's a reasonable assumption, yes.
Q. But it is an assumption, yes?
A. Okay, ma'am. It's an assumption.
Q. Okay. Sir, now, would you put your Power Point back up
here, please?
A. Sure. Which one would you like to see?
Q. How about the very first one that you showed us.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
O'LEARY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 732
A. Okay. (Witness complies.)
I'm sorry. You asked for the first one. I didn't give
you what you asked for.
Q. Okay. You've got "User Seeking Adult Content."
A. That's what it says.
Q. Okay. Why did you choose the words "adult content"?
A. (Pause.)
Q. Did you put those words on there? You created this
document to bring to court?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Okay.
A. I put "adult content" because they're going to an adult
web site. They're using an AVS, adult verification system. I
would assume, using the words "adult verification system," it
was reasonable to put "adult" on the slide.
Q. What about "user seeking child pornography," why didn't
you use that? That's what this case is about, isn't it?
You're here on a child pornography case. Why didn't you use
"child pornography"?
A. As part of the litigation support role that I am playing
and the function that I am doing here in this proceeding, I was
asked to generate a general slide, okay, that would just
explain in general terms how adult verification services work.
Q. So you were not wanting to use the word "child
pornography" on purpose. You're trying to do some generic
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
O'LEARY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 733
thing.
A. Ma'am, the word never entered my mind. I was actually --
MR-BALL: These questions are argumentative.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Well, now, you've got that user who is seeking, and in
this case it would be child pornography, he has to go through
the internet; is that right?
A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. And then he goes to the webmaster.
A. He goes to --
Q. Is that what you've got? Webmaster over there, adult web
site?
A. Okay. He goes to the adult web site physically. I put
the word -- you're splitting -- You're playing word games with
me, ma'am. I put the word webmaster --
Q. Excuse me, sir. You've got the word "webmaster" up there,
do you not?
A. I used the word "webmaster," ma'am, because throughout
this entire trial you have referred to the web site as the
webmaster. I tried to make it clear and concise for the people
in the courtroom.
Q. And I asked you, using your arrows, if that user is going
through the internet to get to the webmaster?
A. That's what that diagram shows, the user is going through
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
O'LEARY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 734
the internet to get to the adult web site run by a webmaster.
Q. Okay. Now, you've got another site, another graphic up
there, that shows that that user who is not seeking adult
content but who is seeking child pornography has to go through
Landslide in order to get to that site; is that right?
A. No, that's incorrect. All people seeking adult content on
the internet have to go through an adult verification service.
Q. Okay. Well, why don't you put Landslide up here and show
us that next graphic.
A. Okay. Again, I was trying to be clear and concise for the
people in the courtroom, and since the words --
THE COURT: You're responding to something that she
hasn't asked.
MS. MOORE: That's right.
THE COURT: There's no question pending. Next
question.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Mr. O'Leary, in order for a person seeking child
pornography to be able to get into that site and view that
child pornography, don't they have to go through Landslide, an
adult AVS, is what this case is about?
A. They could go through Landslide or any other adult
verification system.
Q. And do you know of any other adult verification system
that is providing access to child pornography, sir? I thought
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
O'LEARY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 735
we had been through that already. This case is about
Landslide, is it not?
A. Yes.
Q. In this case, not some other case, did the person seeking
child pornography have to go through Landslide before they
could get their satisfaction?
MR. BALL: Judge, I'll object. We don't know when.
There are various transactions.
THE COURT: I think it's all right.
Please answer.
A. For the sites that you mentioned, they would have gone
through Landslide, yes.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Okay. They could not have gotten it had they not gone
through Landslide. Landslide was a necessary integral part of
them being able to get access to that site; is that correct?
A. Well, they went through Landslide and, of course, they
went through a bank to get their charge approved. So, yes,
they went through Landslide and a bank.
Q. Well, you mentioned that bank. Let me ask you --
A. Would you like me to go to that slide?
Q. No, sir. I didn't ask you to do that.
Was Landslide doing the credit card verification in real
time, or were they submitting their charges for several
customers at the end of a business day?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
O'LEARY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 736
A. I believe they were doing it real time.
Q. You believe that. Were you in the courtroom when Steve
Nelson testified -- I believe you were sitting right over here.
A. Yes.
Q. Did you hear Steve Nelson say that --
A. Is that Detective Nelson? Yes, I'm sorry.
Q. Yes. Did you hear Detective Nelson say that when he
submitted his credit card that he got a confirmation e-mail
back from Landslide instantly?
A. He got a confirmation e-mail back within a few minutes is
what I heard, like ten minutes rings a bell.
Q. Ten minutes rings a bell to you?
A. Ten minutes sounds familiar, yes.
Q. You heard him testify to ten minutes?
A. I believe ten minutes later he would have gotten an e-mail
back.
Q. He didn't say almost instantly?
A. He got the e-mail back rather quickly.
Q. Okay. And so you believe that they had time to send that
off to the credit card company and verify that it indeed was a
real credit card and send it back to the customer?
A. Well, Counsel Ball asked me a question was the internet
automated, and it was an automated process that was doing that.
Q. Well, actually, I'm asking you if you know whether they
were doing it real time or batching it at the end of a business
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
0'LEARY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 737
day. Do you know?
A. They are doing it real time, ma'am.
Q. Now, are you guessing, or is that a --
A. No. They were doing it real time. That is my testimony.
Q. That's your testimony. Okay.
Now, you showed us a business model, okay, for adult
content.
A. Okay.
Q. Did Landslide have a different business model for child
porn?
A. No, they did not.
Q. KeyZ was not a different business model.
A. No, it was not.
Q. It was not a different business model?
A. No, it was not.
Q. That's your testimony. Okay.
Now, you talked a lot about Link Exchange. Did Landslide
use Link Exchange?
A. (Pause.) No, I don't believe they did.
Q. Then everything you explained concerning Link Exchange in
here a little while ago with the jury had nothing to do with
Landslide or this case.
A. Counselor Ball asked me to give an example of a banner
exchange program, so typically the largest company in an
industry comes to mind.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
O'LEARY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 738
Q. And Landslide didn't use that so it had nothing to do with
this case.
A. I believe they had their own banner exchange program.
Q. Okay. Now, Counselor Ball also asked you if you could
create virtual images so that you wouldn't have to pay
royalties to models; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you said yes?
A. You can create virtual images, yes. Publishers do that.
Q. Do you know of any royalties being paid on child
pornography?
A. No, I do not.
Q. Okay. How does AVS deny access to a customer whose --
A. I'm sorry. Slow down, please.
Q. I'm sorry?
A. Slow down, please.
Q. How, in Landslide's business, not somebody else's, but
Landslide's, how did AVS deny access to a customer whose
subscription had run out?
A. How did Landslide?
Q. How did Landslide deny access to a customer whose
subscription had run out?
A. I pointed that out on the second presentation that I did.
And when the user would log into the adult web site of any
kind, the message would go back to the AVS, such as Landslide.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
O'LEARY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 739
The information was checked against the database. If the
account had expired, where it was beyond a month or three
months, or whatever the subscription service was, a message
would be sent back to the adult web site and that user would be
redirected to a policy page, typically a new signup or renewal
signup page or something like that.
Q. Now, you said that Landslide was verifying credit cards;
is that right?
A. (Pause.) Landslide had a merchant account with a bank,
NationsBank, Bank of America, or some Superior Bank, something
like that, and what they would do is they would run the charge
to their bank, which would then use a clearing house. And the
clearing house would then contact the user's bank to make sure
that the user had the proper credit, and then the information
was sent back to the clearing house, back to Landslide's bank,
the approval code was given.
Q. So Landslide wasn't verifying anything. The bank was; is
that right?
A. The banks would have to verify that the user had the
proper credit to run the charge for 10 or $50 or whatever it
was.
Q. So Landslide was just collecting the money. They weren't
a verification service. The bank was doing the verifying; is
that right?
A. I don't know, ma'am. When I pay my credit card bill, I
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
O'LEARY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 740
send a check to my bank. I don't send it to some other
company's bank.
Q. Did I ask you about your credit card bill, or did I ask
you --
A. You asked me who collected the money.
Q. I asked you who verified the credit card, and you're
telling me that the bank verified the credit card, correct or
not?
A. The clearing house that Landslide's bank used is the one
that did the credit card verification. Ma'am, I've run
millions of dollars through the internet through credit cards.
I understand how credit cards in e-commerce services work.
Q. So did Landslide verify the credit card or did the bank,
since you understand it since you've run so many millions of
dollars through?
A. I believe the clearing house, in concert with the two
banks, cleared the credit cards.
Q. So Landslide wasn't verifying, right?
MR. BALL: Excuse me, Judge. Verifying age status?
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Verifying the credit card. They didn't verify anything.
They just collected the money. Is that the way you understand
this process?
A. They got an approval code back, so through that approval
code from a trusted entity, it was a verified credit card.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
O'LEARY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 741
Q. Is it difficult for you to say, no, that Landslide didn't
do the verifying, the bank did. Is that hard?
MR. BALL: Object. The question is argumentative.
THE COURT: Well, I think the witness is being
difficult, and I think he's making himself subject to that kind
of a question, and so I overrule your objection and instruct
the witness to answer.
A. All right. I guess the answer is no but it requires an
explanation because it's not a cut and dry answer of yes or no.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Well, you mentioned that if you type in the word "sex," it
has a ranking of number seven?
A. It's like in the top ten of the most searched for words on
the internet.
Q. And "free" is like the first one?
A. "Free" is typically first or second, yes.
Q. Where is child porn or kiddy porn or something to do with
child pornography?
A. I never went looking for those words to see where they're
indexed.
Q. So you don't know?
A. I don't know, ma'am.
Q. Now, you mentioned, or Mr. Ball asked you if you had
testified in the Eastern District of Texas in federal court as
an expert witness, and you said yes; is that right?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
O'LEARY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 742
A. Uh-huh.
Q. A Mr. Hawkins, I think you said?
A. I didn't say Mr. Hawkins.
Q. You didn't say his name? Well, let me ask you if it's
true that you testified in the Eastern District of Texas on a
matter of Mr. James Riley Hawkins on February the 1st of 2000?
A. Okay.
Q. Yes?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that a matter that was before the Court on a
modification of Mr. Hawkins' term of probation?
A. I believe it was.
Q. All right. And was the United States, that would be
people like myself and Mr. Eddins, wanting to restrict
Mr. Hawkins' use and access of the internet?
MR. BALL: Excuse me. I would object to the content
of the prior hearing being irrelevant to this case.
THE COURT: How is this admissible?
MS. MOORE: Judge, it's this simple --
THE COURT: I don't want you to tell me where you're
headed.
MS. MOORE: Perhaps you want me to come to the bench.
THE COURT: It would probably be a good idea.
(Bench conference with attorneys:)
THE COURT: Give me a one-word lead in on where this
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
O'LEARY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 743
-- how this applies? Bias?
MS. MOORE: Bias.
THE COURT: Okay. Go on from there.
MS. MOORE: He lied to the District Judge, he lied to
the Magistrate District Judge in court. Well, lie is a hard
word. He misled the court, and here's what happened.
THE COURT: And you expect to try to show all of
this?
MS. MOORE: Absolutely. I've got the record right
over there. He went in as an expert. He gave testimony that
there was this program that they could install that would
prevent this Mr. Hawkins fellow from having access to the
internet. And he gave great specific detail about how this
program worked. No such program existed.
The Magistrate made a ruling based on this man's testimony
and allowed this man access to the internet. The government
appealed to the District Judge, and the District Judge then
heard from the president of that company that that was only an
idea in his mind to create such a thing.
THE COURT: In whose mind?
MS. MOORE: In the president of the company that
wanted to have that kind of program, but that none existed.
And the District Judge then reversed the Magistrate's ruling
about allowing the guy to have access. I mean, he gave great
specific detail about something that did not exist and he
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
O'LEARY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 744
misled the Court. And I think it shows his bias that he would
go into court for either side and give testimony about
something of that nature.
MR. BALL: Judge, may I be heard?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. BALL: Judge, we would have an additional
objection. It's outside the scope of the direct examination.
I don't know --
THE COURT: Of course, it's bias, so it wouldn't -
outside the scope is okay.
MR. BALL: I don't know the content of the
litigation, but now we're going to get bogged down into
relitigating. I don't know what happened and I have not seen a
transcript of that hearing and I can't draw any opinions on why
the District Judge in the Eastern District ruled. Anyway, I
don't know what else was heard.
THE COURT: Let me ask Ms. Moore a question: I
frankly don't see how that shows bias. I think it's
reprehensible. I think it's a bad thing to do, but bias? How
does it show bias in this case against the government?
MS. MOORE: Well, the defense hires this man, who
will go in and say what they want him to say in great detail.
He's got a bias -- you know, in favor of whatever it is they
want him to say and he'll claim it and put it up on a graphic
up in front of the jury. He'll pretend he knows the inner
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
O'LEARY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 745
workings of Landslide.
MR. BALL: Judge, I think she can inquire on all
those matters, and if there's something incorrect in his
testimony, she's got experts here in the courtroom watching.
THE COURT: You mean on his
testimony that he gave
here?
MR. BALL: Yes. If he said something that's
technically incorrect or something, she's got a battery of
experts that can get up and refute those matters, but to
relitigate --
THE COURT: I think one of my concerns here is -- I
think you've helped me on the question of bias, but I've got
other questions -- I've got to weigh it.
As far as under 403 -- and two things come to mind on 403.
One is using the time and whether it's all that important to
you. I don't think this witness has been shown to be a
particularly effective witness for the defense anyway. And it
looks like we're about to get into something that's going to be
somewhat time-consuming without a great deal of effect for your
case. Tell me why I'm wrong on either or both of those two.
MS. MOORE: Well, I think that he has been an
argumentative witness, but, you know, he holds himself out as
this very successful intelligent person that's done all this
and has this great amount of knowledge.
THE COURT: But you've remedied that with the sarcasm
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
O'LEARY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 746
in your voice.
MS. MOORE: Okay.
MR. BALL: I think all those things have been pointed
out adequately.
THE COURT: A good deal of it, anyway.
MR. BALL: We would add Rule 403, needless
consumption of time and the necessity of cross-examination.
THE COURT; Let me make this tentative ruling. I'm
not going to allow it under 403. But I could be dissuaded from
that if it appears to me that it needs to come out. I think
based on what we've heard so far, all things considered, it
shouldn't. But depending on what happens in the rest of cross
and redirect, I could change my mind.
MS. MOORE: Okay. And I just felt, Judge, since he
said he testified as an expert in the Eastern District and used
that to bolster the man as an expert that I ought to be able to
talk about what happened in the Eastern District.
THE COURT: Well, I can't disagree with you
completely. But with this guy I could see us here another 30
minutes just on that, and I think we need to get this to the
jury and for the other reasons I've already said.
MS. MOORE: Okay.
(End of bench conference.)
MS. MOORE: I'll pass the witness.
THE COURT; Will there be redirect?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
O'LEARY - REDIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 747
MR. BALL: Just briefly, Your Honor.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BALL:
Q. Mr. O'Leary, Ms. Moore asked some questions about did you
know how Landslide worked. Were you present in court and did
you observe the Web Buddy and video captures that Detective
Nelson obtained in this case?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did that assist you?
A. Yes.
Q. I think Ms. Moore was asking you whether Landslide
verifies anything. Does Landslide verify credit cards or age?
A. (Pause.) Well, I believe they charge things on a credit
card for convenience and to check that adults have a credit
card. That's means they're of age.
MR. BALL: Thank you. That's all.
THE COURT: You may step down, sir.
THE WITNESS: How should I handle this stuff? Turn
it off?
THE COURT: You'll have to ask your counsel.
MR. BALL: If you can unplug it and we'll collect the
rest in a minute.
THE COURT: Unplug it and?
MR. BALL: Well, there's some wiring and so forth.
THE COURT: Go ahead. Do whatever you need to do.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL IV, 748
MR. BALL: Okay.
Judge, may he be excused?
THE COURT: Yes.
Ms. Moore, you don't mind the witness being excused?
MS. MOORE: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Yes.
MR. BALL: Your Honor, ladies and gentlemen,
Defendant Thomas Reedy rests, and, also, since I'm counsel for
Landslide, Landslide, Incorporated rests.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Heiskell.
MR. HEISKELL: Your Honor, as I've indicated at the
beginning, I would now like to make my opening statement.
THE COURT; You may proceed.
MR. HEISKELL: Thank you.
May it please the Court, government counsel, and may it
please you, too, ladies and gentlemen. I'm about to give you
the opening statement in the case of Janice Reedy, my client.
Sonora, Texas, is a small community of about 2500 people
located in South Texas. And in 1968 a young girl was born to
Glenda and Joe Lowe. She was the oldest of two daughters and
she grew up in Sonora. She went to school there and graduated
from high school in Sonora, Texas. Upon graduating at the
tender age of 17 years of age she married a man by the name of
Walter Bell.
They moved to Bulverde, Texas, where Janice began working
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL IV, 749
in a convenience store, and her first husband was working as a
mechanic there at the other South Texas town. This marriage
was ill-fated and lasted only about a year and a half. And
after she got a divorce, she went to work again in the San
Antonio area and was living in Boerne, Texas.
She worked after she had also graduated from Hallmark
Institute of Medical Technology, where she had done some work
there and bookkeeping and then went to work later on in filing
at Humana Medical Center in San Antonio and also worked at the
San Antonio Board of Realtors as a secretary.
It was there in San Antonio that she met her future second
husband, Thomas Quick, Jr. They were married in 1990, and in
1991, in September, I believe, on September the 14th, her
daughter was born Alicia. This marriage was, too, ill-fated,
because Thomas Quick soon began to physically abuse Janice
Reedy -- Janice Lee. At that time Janice Lee Quick.
At the age of 15 months -- her daughter at the age of 15
months, she left her husband, in the dark of night, actually,
and went back to Sonora, Texas, where her parents were. There
she stayed with her parents for a short period of time with her
daughter, and then after a few months, after working in a food
store as a grocery clerk, moved into her own apartment there in
Sonora. And she remained there working every day for a few
years.
In December of 1996 she happened to meet Thomas Reedy.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL IV, 750
Thomas Reedy was in Sonora, Texas, to attend the funeral of his
mother, and while in Sonora they met and they began to date.
Janice fell in love with Thomas Reedy, and one of the reasons
because he loved their daughter Alicia.
She moved to Fort Worth in 1997, in June of 1997. They
weren't living together. She had her own place, and Thomas was
living in a separate place with his father because he wanted to
do that and he was working on an internet startup business,
soon to be known as Landslide, Incorporated. Janice and Thomas
saw each other very frequently, and she soon began to work at
Landslide. She started out as a bookkeeper and as a secretary,
and then she moved on, for a short period of time, exactly from
August of '97 until January of '98 in customer service, working
under the -- another subheading of Landslide known as AVS,
where AVS was having the adult verification system.
While working as a bookkeeper, she was working with a lady
named Amy whose last name I don't recall right now. And Amy
trained her, basically, and told her what to do and how to do
the bookkeeping services. And she also had some bookkeeping
training before, as I indicated to you earlier. And it was
there she first saw the names, very obscene names, on some of
the paperwork that she was handling. And she soon learned that
all is not what it appears to be and was told this by employees
there at Landslide as well as her husband.
After working in the bookkeeping area, then went to
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
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customer service, where KeyZ, I think, had not even begun yet,
because KeyZ began later in 1998. She moved, then, back to the
financial area and began to work in the finances for
bookkeeping, doing payroll, paying webmasters, taking care of
other bills, sending wire transfers, doing chargebacks, doing
refunds, all the gamut of activities that a financial person
would do. She did this for quite some time. And Landslide,
Incorporated, had different employees coming in and out of the
business.
She will tell you that when she was in the customer
service department for that four-month window I told you about
from August of '97 until January of '98 where AVS was up and
not KeyZ, yes, she in fact did help people go to their
different sites to show them how to plug into the system of the
webmaster and at no time did she view any type of illegal porn
or child porn or anything of that nature.
You will soon learn that while in the financial arena
after she left the customer service department where she did
the various and sundry things I talked about earlier, that she
came to know different employees and that she came to work very
hard at her job in trying to make sure that the monies and
bills were paid and the webmasters were paid. Her e-mails that
came across her desk, the paperwork that came across her desk,
was strictly financial; and we will introduce to you certain
financial documents from Landslide that Janice Reedy is aware
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL IV, 752
of and that she handled and that she paid.
You will also find out, and you've heard the testimony,
that at the time of the search warrant in September of 1999 she
did in fact cooperate with Agent Steed Huggins of the U.S.
Postal Inspection Service. But you'll also find out that prior
to that time, for about a couple of months actually, around
July/August of 1999, she began to hear some rumors, and
specifically from Carol Clark, that there was something about
some child pornography that had been seen on some of the sites
that they had been servicing. You'll find out that she, in
fact, then went to her husband, because this was about eight
months after Thomas Reedy decided to and in fact did adopt
Alicia as his own daughter and they had the rights of the birth
father terminated, Thomas Quick, the abusive husband from
before.
And she went to Thomas and asked him about this, and he
told her that, yeah, he had checked with the FBI and he was
handling it. And she went about her business, and that was her
knowledge of so-called anything of child porn having come over
the internet access through Landslide.
You will hear testimony that she did in fact tell Agent
Huggins that she never monitored any sites; that she in fact
had previously went to certain sites when she was working in
customer service, and we know that was before KeyZ. She did
tell Agent Huggins that she didn't know all -- of the 5,000
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL IV, 753
sites that there were in fact 250 or so sites that made money
and she was familiar with those particular sites. She showed
them documents. She showed where the computers were.
She will also tell you that she told Agent Huggins that,
yes, she saw these names and explained why these names didn't
mean the things that they mean to other people because of what
she had been told before by Thomas Reedy and others within
Landslide.
Ladies and gentlemen, I believe the evidence will show you
that there is no way that the government has shown and will be
able to prove to you of her knowledge in aiding and abetting in
this venture as they've alleged in the indictment. Once you
hear the testimony from Janice Reedy, who will be called next,
then you will have to make your own mind up about whether
they've met their high burden of proof as to Janice Lee Reedy.
Thank you.
Thank you, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may call your first witness.
MR. HEISKELL: Judge, we call Janice Lee Reedy.
THE COURT: Ms. Reedy, please raise your right hand
and be sworn.
(Defendant Janice Reedy is sworn.)
THE COURT: You may be seated.
MR. HEISKELL: May I proceed, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - DIRECT - HEISKELL VOL IV, 754
MR. HEISKELL: Thank you.
JANICE LEE REEDY,
having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. Will you state your name for the Court and ladies and
gentlemen of the jury, please.
A. Janice Lee Reedy.
Q. And, Janice, I'm going to ask you to pull that microphone
closer to your mouth so we can clearly hear you.
Would you repeat that, please.
A. Janice Lee Reedy.
Q. How old are you, Janice?
A. I'm 32.
Q. And where do you currently live?
A. I live with my father-in-law, Forrest Reedy.
Q. That's here in Fort Worth?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And where were you born, Janice?
A. I was born in Sonora, Texas.
Q. And who are your parents?
A. Joe and Glenda Lowe.
Q. And do you have any other siblings, any other brothers or
sisters?
A. I have one sister, Lancey Ronspiez.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - DIRECT - HEISKELL VOL IV, 755
Q. And is she younger or older than you are?
A. She's younger than I am.
Q. Did you grow up in Sonora?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did you attend school there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what was the name of the high school where you
graduated?
A. Sonora High School.
Q. And how old were you, Janice, when you graduated?
A. Seventeen.
Q. And after you graduated, what happened next in your life?
A. I was married.
Q. And what was your husband's name at that time?
A. Walter William Bell.
Q. And how old was Walter William Bell, Janice?
A. He was 20, 21.
Q. And after you married, did y'all move away?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And where did you go?
A. To Bulverde, Texas.
Q. And how do you spell that?
A. B-U-L-V-E-R-D-E.
Q. And how far is that from Sonora?
A. It's about 120 miles.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - DIRECT - HEISKELL VOL IV, 756
Q. Oh, and, by the way, these are some of your family members
in the front here?
A. Yes, sir, they are.
Q. What did you do work-wise after you and Mr. Bell moved to
Bulverde?
A. I worked in Boerne, Texas, at Pico Convenience Store.
Q. What did you do at that store?
A. I was a cashier.
Q. And for how long were you married to Mr. Bell, William
Bell?
A. About two and a half, three years.
Q. And y'all got a divorce, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And after you got a divorce, did you move away from
Bulverde?
A. I moved from Bulverde to Boerne, Texas, yes.
Q. To where?
A. Boerne.
Q. And that's spelled B-O-E-R-N-E; is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is that near San Antonio?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, what did you do in Boerne, Texas?
A. I continued working at Pico Convenience Store while going
to Hallmark Institute.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - DIRECT - HEISKELL VOL IV, 757
Q. Now, what type of training did you receive at this
Hallmark Institute?
A. Accounting and computer.
Q. Okay. And how long were you there at Hallmark?
A. One year.
Q. And did you finish that training there at Hallmark?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And was that in San Antonio as well?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you working while you were attending this Hallmark
Institute?
A. Yes, sir, I was.
Q. I'm sorry?
A. Yes, sir, I was.
Q. What was your next line of work after you finished the
Hallmark?
A. After I graduated from Hallmark, I went to work for Humana
Medical Systems.
Q. And is that in San Antonio?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. What did you do at Humana Medical Center?
A. I was in -- I worked in medical records filing papers.
Q. How long did you work there? Do you recall?
A. Six months or so.
Q. And while in San Antonio, what was the next big event that
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - DIRECT - HEISKELL VOL IV, 758
occurred in your life?
A. I met and married my second husband.
Q. And what was the second husband's name?
A. Thomas Arthur Quick, Jr.
Q. And were you living in San Antonio after you married
Thomas Quick, Jr.?
A. No, Sir. We lived in Boerne, Texas.
Q. Lived in Boerne.
A. Yes, Sir.
Q. What type of work did he do, if you recall?
A. When I met him, he was volunteering at a wildlife rescue
center there in Boerne, and then he went to work for his
stepfather in a leather shop.
Q. In a shop?
A. Yeah, a leather shop.
Q. You'll have to keep your voice up just a little bit, okay?
A. Okay.
Q. Did you and Thomas Quick, Jr., have a child?
A. Yes, sir, we did.
Q. And when was your child born?
A. September 14th, 1991.
Q. And what was the child's name?
A. Alicia.
Q. What's Alicia's full name?
A. Alicia Raquel Quick, it was then. It's now Reedy.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - DIRECT - HEISKELL VOL IV, 759
Q. And Alicia is currently how old, Janice?
A. She's nine.
Q. Now, in fact, she is living with you now with your
father-in-law; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And one of the reasons you're not with your husband is
because the Court put conditions of your release, is that
right, after you were arrested in this case?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you're unable to see him related to court matters; is
that correct?
A. This is right, yes, sir.
Q. After Alicia was born, what was the state of the marriage
like after that with Thomas Quick?
A. It became very troubled.
Q. Did you, in fact, leave your husband some time after your
child was born?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Why was that?
A. Because of the physical abuse.
Q. And were y'all still living in Boerne at that time?
A. Yes, sir, we were.
Q. And where did you go after you left Thomas Quick there in
Boerne?
A. I went to Sonora to my parents.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - DIRECT - HEISKELL VOL IV, 760
Q. And did you and Thomas Quick, Jr., eventually get a
divorce?
A. Yes, sir, we did.
Q. After you went to your parents' home and back to Sonora,
did you go back to work again?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. And what did you do in Sonora then?
A. I went to work for Food Center there in Sonora.
Q. I'm sorry?
A. Food Center. It's a grocery store.
Q. And what did you do at the grocery store?
A. I was hired as a cashier and eventually became the scan
coordinator for the store.
Q. Okay. How long did you work at the Food Center grocery
store?
A. For about a year and a half.
Q. Did you have any other jobs there in Sonora?
A. Yes, sir. I began working at State Farm after Food
Center.
Q. And what did you do at State Farm?
A. I was a sales representative for State Farm Insurance.
Q. Did there come a time, and specifically in December of
1996, that you met Thomas Reedy?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And Thomas Reedy, of course, is the person seated to my
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - DIRECT - HEISKELL VOL IV, 761
left over here, the second person to the left, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you met him, in fact, at a funeral of his mother in
Sonora, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where was Thomas living at that time?
A. Here in Fort Worth.
Q. And after you met him, did you begin to date him?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you introduce your daughter to him, Alicia?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. And in June of 1997, did you in fact move to Fort Worth?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. And where did you move to exactly in Fort Worth?
A. We lived on Caravelle Court in White Settlement, me and
Alicia.
Q. You and Alicia.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And where was Thomas living at that time?
A. He was living with his father on Versailles over by
Ridgemar Mall.
Q. And did you eventually go to work for Landslide, the
internet business that Thomas had started here in Fort Worth?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. What was your first job at Landslide, Janice?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - DIRECT - HEISKELL VOL IV, 762
A. I was trained by the current secretary who was pregnant
and fixing to go on maternity leave to handle some of the books
while she was gone.
Q. And what was that secretary's name?
A. Amy George.
Q. Amy George?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And she was training you prior to her leaving on maternity
leave; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What type of things did she train you, or what was she
showing you that she was doing?
A. She showed me how to --
Q. Now, speak a little louder. Your voice is trailing off.
A. Okay. She showed me how to write checks for the
webmasters, how to write the business checks for the bills, and
that kind of stuff. How to answer the phone if the phone calls
came in.
Q. How many people were working for Landslide at that time,
if you recall?
A. There was three.
Q. That's you and who else?
A. Myself, Dan Markham, and Tom Hughes.
Q. Tom Hughes?
A. Yes, sir.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - DIRECT - HEISKELL VOL IV, 763
Q. What was Tom Hughes' position?
A. He was the programmer. He was the head programmer for
Landslide.
Q. Where were your offices located at that time?
A. At Versailles.
Q. At Versailles?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was that a home?
A. That was out of Thomas' home. They did have offices
located down on Belknap.
Q. But you were working out of the home.
A. At that time, yes.
Q. And did you eventually begin to work out of the Belknap
location?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, when you first saw the names of some of these sites
that Amy was showing you, do you recall that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you recall those names being, for lack of a better
term, an offensive nature?
A. Yes, sir, they were.
Q. What did you think of that? What was your reaction?
A. I asked her, you know, what is this; and she said don't
worry about it. They're just names. They don't mean anything.
Q. Okay. Did you also ask Thomas about it?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - DIRECT - HEISKELL VOL IV, 764
A. Yes.
Q And?
A. He said that sites on the web used common names so that
when they typed into the search engine their sites would come
up, and what the name was didn't necessarily mean that that was
what was in the site.
Q. Now, at that time was KeyZ even in existence?
A. No, sir, it was not.
Q. So these names have to deal with -- and, in fact, this
business was the adult verification system, was it not, AVS?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. For people who wanted to visit adult porn sites,
pornographic sites.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And so those names had some pretty offensive words in
them, language.
A. Yes, they did.
Q. Now, did you in fact at some point move to the -- or go to
the customer service area for Landslide?
A. Yes. While Amy George was on maternity leave, she showed
me enough of the accounting for about three or four hours of
that day, of the day. And then they started training me in
customer service so that way they would be paying me for a full
eight-hour day instead of three and me sitting there for five.
Q. How long did you work in the customer service area?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - DIRECT - HEISKELL VOL IV, 765
A. From August to January of '98.
Q. Is that August '97?
A. Yes, sir. August '97 to January of '98.
Q. So for about four months; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And at that time was keyz.com even in operation?
A. No, sir.
Q. Now, at some point, I guess, working in the customer
service site when customers would call or write or e-mail and
complain, would you have to go to some of the sites and help
the people log in, if you will?
A. Yes, sir. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Okay. And these were some of the adult sites, the legal
sites, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, when you left the customer service area in January of
'98, where next did you go within Landslide?
A. At that time I began doing the accounting full-time.
Q. The accounting?
A. Yes. I did strictly accounting, such as the site checks,
paying the bills, the chargebacks, the refunds, I answered the
phones, I did the mail. I prepared all the checks for mailing.
I did all of it.
Q. And at that point, where was the location of Landslide?
A. At that point we were on Belknap.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - DIRECT - HEISKELL VOL IV, 766
Q. And were you physically at the Belknap address when you
were doing that, or did you go back and forth to your home or
where were you?
A. I went back and forth but spent most of my time at the
Belknap address.
Q. Now, when you went to the financial, it was actually only
a couple of months after you and Thomas got married; is that
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And when were you married?
A. We were married on December 25th, 1997.
Q. Was anyone in the financial area of Landslide at that
point assisting you, or were you working alone? What was that
like?
A. I was working alone, just working completely alone.
Q. And during the time after you left and went to the
financial area, did there come a site to be known as keyz.com
come into being?
A. Yes, sir, it did.
Q. And this is something that Thomas Reedy, your husband,
created; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, it was.
Q. And as a result, did you begin to handle the financial
transactions for keyz.com in addition to the AVS?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - DIRECT - HEISKELL VOL IV, 767
Q. And, in fact, that's what you told Agent Huggins when he
interviewed you in September of '99, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. During this time frame in '98, was the business expanding,
more people being hired, et cetera, et cetera?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And were you still located at the Belknap address here in
Fort Worth?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you move from one location on Belknap to another at
any particular point?
A. In February we hired David Cruz and another girl who was
only there for about three weeks and Dustin Van Huss. At that
point we had to move -- rent offices across the street to have
a place for everybody to sit.
Q. So were your offices split up, or did y'all move to that
location across the street, if you remember?
A. We all moved across and let the other office alone because
that's where the server set, and we paid rent on it but nobody
used that office at that point.
Q. Now, where was Tom Hughes' office during this time?
A. He would work sometimes downtown in the office where the
servers were, or he would work from his home or when they
received the -- or got the Dallas building, he had an office in
Dallas.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - DIRECT - HEISKELL VOL IV, 768
Q. And Landslide had an office in Dallas?
A. Yes, sir, they did.
Q. Was Thomas Hughes the only person working in the office in
Dallas?
A. No. Jon Reedy was working in the office in Dallas.
Q. I'm sorry. Who else?
A. Jon Reedy.
Q. Do you know exactly where that office was located, Janice?
A. No. I've never been there.
Q. You never went there?
A. No, sir.
Q. But when -- The office in Dallas, was Thomas still working
as the -- Thomas Hughes, excuse me, still working as the
programmer, if you will?
A. Yes, sir. He was still the main programmer.
Q. During the time that you were working there at Landslide,
ma'am, was it your understanding that as far as the content on
the sites that people would eventually go to, that the
webmasters themselves controlled the sites, the content?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And this is one of the things you told Agent Huggins; is
that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you ever, as far as you know, anyone within Landslide
ever monitor the sites? In other words, sit down at the
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - DIRECT - HEISKELL VOL IV, 769
computer or computers and just have them on continuously 24
hours a day, or however many number of hours?
A. No, sir. Nobody ever monitored as far as I knew.
Q. Can you tell us what a payday page is, please?
A. It's a printout of webmasters and how much money they've
made for that month.
Q. And what role did you have in creation of the payday page?
A. I had no role in the creation of the payday page.
Q. Okay. So what role did the payday page take part with
you? What did you do with it?
A. I pushed the button at the end of the month, on the 30th
day of the month, that said create the payday page, and it
created it and printed it out.
Q. And the payday page would have the name of the webmaster,
the sites, and the money, basically.
A. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
Q. And what would you do with the information from that
payday page?
A. I'd data entry the webmaster name, the site name that they
had chosen, and the money into the QuickBooks.
Q. And what would you do with it then?
A. From there I would prepare checks or wire transfers,
whichever the webmaster had chosen for their funds.
Q. And did you ever receive e-mails through the course of
your work as a financial person at Landslide?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - DIRECT - HEISKELL VOL IV, 770
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. And what did those e-mails concern themselves with?
A. Money, where their money was, how much money they were
making, and that kind of stuff.
Q. Once KeyZ was up and running, along with AVS -- Let me
take AVS first. About how many sites did AVS serve?
A. They served about, I think, 3500, 33,000 (sic).
Q. Okay. And how many sites did KeyZ serve?
A. 2,000.
Q. So a total of 5,000.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And were you responsible for handling the financial
transactions for all those sites?
A. Yes, sir, I was.
Q. And there were a certain number of those sites that made
more money, or generated more money, than the other sites,
correct?
A. Yes, sir, there was.
Q. And that's one of the things you also told Agent Huggins
when you met with him.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you also tell him that you didn't know whether AVS or
KeyZ, which one of those sites made the most money?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. When you would create the checks or print out the checks
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - DIRECT - HEISKELL VOL IV, 771
or whatever, what would you do with those checks?
A. Thomas would sign those checks. I would take them home
and Thomas would sign them.
Q. And where was Thomas working primarily?
A. He was working out of the house at that time.
Q. Okay. He's working out of the house?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you were at the offices, for the most part?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And was there computers at the house that Thomas worked
at?
A. Yes, there was.
Q. Do you know how many?
A. There were two that he worked on.
Q. You heard Agent Huggins say that you wanted to keep a lot
of the business -- I think the term was "away from Alicia,
something to that effect. Do you remember that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was going on at that point as far as any matter in
your mind concerning Alicia? What were you trying to do as far
as protecting her from what?
A. I was not -- I was protecting the family time. I brought
checks home, he signed them after we went to bed. I would take
them to work the next morning. There was no business conducted
between the time I picked her up from school to the time she
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - DIRECT - HEISKELL VOL IV, 772
went to bed. That was the time for the family.
Q. Okay. So did the checks themselves have any obscene names
on them?
A. No, sir.
Q. Okay. So when you told him that you wanted to protect her
or keep her away from the business, you're talking about just
regular business that you were doing; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you ever bring home any pornographic or obscene data
or words or anything of that nature?
A. No, sir.
Q. And, by the way, what grade school is Alicia in?
A. She's in third grade this year.
Q. And how is she doing in school?
A. She's doing very well. She's made A's the last two six
weeks.
Q. And is she generally an A student?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When you were at home, after you would get home and you
say Thomas would sign the checks after Alicia went to bed; is
that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Would Thomas also work after you, in fact, had retired for
the evening and gone to bed?
A. Yes, sir.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - DIRECT - HEISKELL VOL IV, 773
Q. Is that something you also told Agent Huggins, that he
would work on the computers after you and Alicia had gone to
bed?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you aware of what is called and you've seen in court
here today "adult classifieds" under the KeyZ system, or AVS
system?
A. No, sir, I was not.
Q. Were you asked that by Agent Huggins?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. And you told him you didn't know anything about that; is
that right?
A. This is correct, yes, sir.
Q. Is that true?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And one of the reasons is because that's something that
didn't generate money, and you heard that today, it was just
people to pop up certain messages; is that right?
A. Can you --
Q. You heard that in testimony.
A. I'm sorry.
Q. Well, I didn't make myself clear. You heard the testimony
that adult classifieds was not a profit-generating site. It
was people would pop up messages.
A. Yes, sir.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - DIRECT - HEISKELL VOL IV, 774
Q. And when you -- Were you also asked about the e-mail
system by the agent?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did you know anything about the location of the
service for the e-mails?
A. I thought that they were stored on Landslide computers. I
I don't really know that much about computers.
Q. And you also told him you didn't know whether any of the
employees had passwords to keyz.com or any other site; is that
right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did you have any passwords to keyz.com?
A. No, sir.
Q. You did in fact have an e-mail address; is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you were called money@landslide.com?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did you choose that name, or did someone choose that
name for you?
A. That name was already in place when I took the position.
Q. Okay. So it was already there when you took the position
in '97.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that indicates that the person there dealt with the
money.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - DIRECT - HEISKELL VOL IV, 775
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You were asked by the agent about the sites -- or two
sites at least, I think you testified about, one called -- Oh,
sites on KeyZ. One called Pussies4u, and one called Fucking
Little Kids or girls or something like that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In fact, you told him that you saw some of these names on
the paperwork, the financial paperwork, that you dealt with.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. He also asked you, didn't he, about -- more specifically
about your daughter Alicia?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he was asking whether you or anyone else was trying to
get her to participate in anything like this, and you adamantly
denied that, right?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Let me take you now to the summer of '99, Janice, and were
you still the financial person at Landslide?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And where at that time -- Were you still in the Belknap
address, or had you moved at this point to the Seaman address.
When did that take place?
A. I don't know when the move took place, but I do know that
it was summer of '99 when we moved to Belknap. They purchased
the building in April, I believe. So it was about June, I
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - DIRECT - HEISKELL VOL IV, 776
think.
Q. Around June or so?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And at that point Landslide had 12 or more employees, like
12 or 13 or so employees; is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you, prior to the government raid there at your Seaman
address, hear anything concerning child porn being on sites, or
possibly being on some of the sites at KeyZ?
A. Yes, sir. Carol Clark had mentioned that to me.
Q. And approximately when was that, Janice?
A. August.
Q. Okay. And do you recall exactly what was stated by Carol
Clark?
A. She had said she had seen some child porn going through
AVS or KeyZ, one. I don't. . .
Q. Was that the first time you heard about any actual child
porn images going through some of these sites?
A. Yes, sir, it was.
Q. And what did you do when you heard -- First of all, let me
back up. Who was Carol Clark and what role did she play at
Landslide?
A. Carol Clark was the office manager at the Belknap office,
and she did refunds and chargebacks, too.
Q. Did she become a friend of yours?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - DIRECT - HEISKELL VOL IV, 777
A. Yes, sir, she was a friend of mine.
Q. And in August of '98 was she still the office manager at
-- Well, were you at the Seaman address by then?
A. No, not in '98. We were still in -
Q. No. I'm talking '99.
A. Yes, sir, she was still a friend of mine and she was
employed with us.
Q. You need to speak up, Janice.
A. Yes, sir. I think she was still employed with us, yes,
sir.
Q. After she left the employment of Landslide, she still was
a friend of yours; is that right?
A. Yes, sir, she was. We went out to lunch and we were still
friends, yes, sir.
Q. Did you go to your husband Thomas Reedy after you heard
this in August of '99?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. And what were you told?
A. That Thomas said that he had contacted the FBI and that it
was being handled.
Q. Did you believe him?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You love him, right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And earlier that year -- I'm sorry, I skipped over. In
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - DIRECT - HEISKELL VOL IV, 778
fact, Thomas had adopted Alicia as his own daughter, correct?
A. Yes, sir, he did.
Q. And the rights of Thomas Quick, Jr., were terminated by
the courts.
A. Yes, sir, they were.
Q. This business, Landslide, Inc., became a lucrative
business for you and Thomas, did it not?
A. Yes, sir, it was.
Q. And, in fact, you saw some of the photos that the
government has shown in some of the exhibits of your home and
one or two cars, if I recall. Those in fact were vehicles
purchased by you and Thomas and the home was purchased; is that
right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And y'all still live in that home?
A. No, sir. We don't live there anymore.
Q. And that's been foreclosed on, hasn't it?
A. Yes, it has.
MR. HEISKELL: May I approach the
witness, Your
Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. Janice, I'm going to show you a series of exhibits, and
I'll begin with Defendant Reedy Exhibit No. 1 and ask if you
will look at that and identify that for us, please.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - DIRECT - HEISKELL VOL IV, 779
A. This was a chargeback ratio report that was created. I
think it was in August.
Q. August of what year?
A. Of '99, shortly before the raid, to see how much -- how
many chargebacks were being processed per webmaster against
their sites.
Q. Okay. And were these kept in the regular course of
business there at Landslide, Inc., during the time that you
were employed there?
A. This had just been created.
Q. Okay. And this is one of the financial documents that
you, in fact, handled while at Landslide; is that correct?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. HEISKELL: Your Honor, we would offer Defendant
Reedy No. 1.
MS. MOORE: I just need to look at it real quick,
Your Honor. No objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Admitted.
MR. HEISKELL: Thank you.
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. I'm now going to show you, and turn in this binder here,
Janice, to Defendant Reedy's Exhibit No. 2 and ask you to
identify that document, please.
A. This is the same thing. It's a chargeback ratio report,
except it has been broken down into webmasters and giving
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - DIRECT - HEISKELL VOL IV, 780
totals.
Q. Okay. And is that another document that is kept in the
regular course of business at Landslide, Inc., at the time you
were employed there?
A. Yes, sir, it was.
Q. And this is one of the financial documents you yourself
handled; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, it was.
MR. HEISKELL: We'd offer Defendant Reedy's No. 2,
Your Honor.
MS. MOORE: No objection.
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. And take a look at No. 2 --
THE COURT: Excuse me. Two is admitted.
MR. HEISKELL: I'm sorry, Your Honor.
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. No. 2, Ms. Reedy, and I want to have you look at page 7 of
this exhibit and look -- and this is in alphabetical order, is
it not?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. And under the names M there is a name "Maksim Kakhovski,"
K-A-K-H-O-V-S-K-I. Do you see that?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. Do you recall that being one of the e-mails shown in one
of the government exhibits in which there are some
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - DIRECT - HEISKELL VOL IV, 781
communications between David originally, David Cruz, at
sites@landslide.com and this individual webmaster. Do you
recall that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And do you recall, also, the government pointing out in
one of the e-mails, the e-mail that David sent out, in which
the site name of Kiddy Porn appears.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, does that site name appear on documents that you
handled shown in Exhibit No. 2, that name?
A. No, sir, it doesn't.
Q. What name appears on that particular webmaster's site?
A. It says the KDP Collection.
Q. Let me now go to Defendant Reedy's Exhibit No. 3 and ask
if you can identify this, please.
A. This is the payday pages that we printed out at the first
of the month.
Q. And these payday pages are what you talked about earlier
that you punch a button and the totals or something is created?
A. Yeah.
Q. Gives you the totals?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And is that an automated system, then, where all you do is
punch the button and it creates it?
A. Yes, sir.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - DIRECT - HEISKELL VOL IV, 782
Q. And what do you do with the documents -- or the
information contained on the payday pages?
A. Once it's printed out, then I enter it into QuickBooks.
Q. Now, these names and some of the names we've talked about
before appear on some of the chargeback documents in Defendant
Reedy's 1 and 2 and even, in fact, on some of the payday
records; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. And these are some of the same names that you were told by
Amy and Tom Reedy that don't necessarily mean what the content
is.
A. Yes, sir, they are.
Q. Let me now go to Defendant Reedy's No. 4 and ask if you
can identify that, please.
A. This was when Dan Markham signed up for Adult Check to see
how their operation worked.
Q. And who was Dan Markham?
A. Dan Markham was a site manager there employed by Landslide
when I first began working for them.
Q. And these were some of the records that were seized by the
government during the government raid, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that we were able to get copies of them and show to
you and Thomas Reedy in preparation for this case; is that
right?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - DIRECT - HEISKELL VOL IV, 783
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. Now, this Adult Check, in fact, reflects it gave -- Dan
Markham went to this site to get some information; is that
correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And this was something -- When was this done, if you
recall?
A. This was done, it says here on March '98.
Q. Okay. And since these were seized by the government, were
these records kept in the regular course of business there at
Landslide?
A. Yes, sir. We kept --
MR. HEISKELL: We would offer Defendant Reedy's
Exhibit No. 4, Your Honor.
MS. MOORE: No objection.
THE COURT: Admitted.
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. Let me show you now Defendant Reedy's No. 5, Janice, and
can you tell us what that is, please.
A. This is when Bill Breitbarth started to advertise AVS for
sale through -- I do not know how he did that, but he
advertised it for sale.
Q. Okay. So this deals with the sale of the business?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Landslide?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - DIRECT - HEISKELL VOL IV, 784
A. Yes, sir. Or AVS.
Q. AVS which is part of Landslide.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, who is Bill Breitbarth?
A. Bill Breitbarth was the CPA at that time.
Q. Do you know for how long he had been at Landslide or
working with Landslide?
A. He worked at Landslide, I believe, for about a year or a
little more.
Q. And this, in essence, is an advertisement of the business
being for sale that he created; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. And since you were the financial person at the time, you
had access to this information and saw this information during
the course of your work at Landslide; is that right?
A. Yes, sir, I have seen this.
Q. And this was created and maintained in the regular course
of business for Landslide; is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. HEISKELL: We would offer Defendant Reedy's 5.
MS. MOORE: No objection.
THE COURT: Let me make sure that you have intended
to offer 1 through 5 at this point, correct?
MR. HEISKELL: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay. I just want to make the record
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - DIRECT - HEISKELL VOL IV, 785
clear that 1 through 5 have been admitted.
MR. HEISKELL: Thank you, Your Honor.
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. I'm now going to show you Defendant Reedy's No. 6,
Ms. Reedy, and ask you to identify that, please.
A. This was an offer Bill Breitbarth received from an
attorney at law in California for the sale of our business --
or the sale of Landslide -- for the sale of AVS, I'm sorry.
Q. And this was in -- When was this that this offer came back
to purchase the business?
A. February 22nd of 1999.
Q. And since this dealt with the financial status or finances
of the company, is this records that you had access to and had
seen previously?
A. I was shown this after Thomas was shown this. Bill was my
supervisor.
Q. Bill Breitbarth?
A. Yes. Bill Breitbarth was the CPA and he was my
supervisor.
Q. And was this also maintained and kept in the regular
course of business, this document at Landslide?
A. Yes, sir, it was.
MR. HEISKELL: We would offer Defendant Reedy's
Exhibit No. 6, Your Honor, into evidence.
MS. MOORE: No objection.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - DIRECT - HEISKELL VOL IV, 786
THE COURT: Admitted.
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. Let me move now to --
MR. HEISKELL: May I have just a moment, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. Ms. Reedy, I'm now going to hand to you what's been marked
as Defendant Reedy's Exhibit No. 7 and ask you to identify what
7 is. Look at it.
A. It appears to be a description of when Landslide was
founded and the products and services that were being offered
by Landslide.
Q. And what about the additional pages here?
A. There's a bill from Worsham, Forsythe, Wooldridge, LPP,
attorney at law, to Landslide.
Q. Okay. And go and look at the remaining documents, please.
A. Yes, sir. And there's another bill in here with a check
stub where they were paid, from the same attorneys.
Q. And these were legal bills that you paid for Landslide
dealing with business matters at Landslide; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And these are matters that you, in fact, generated checks
for that Thomas Reedy had to sign in order to pay these
attorneys for these bills.
A. Yes, sir.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - DIRECT - HEISKELL VOL IV, 787
Q. And these are kept in the regular course of business at
Landslide, am I correct?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. HEISKELL: We would offer Defendant Reedy's No.
7, Your Honor.
MS. MOORE: No objection.
THE COURT: Seven is admitted.
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. Now, when I look at the actual bill in 7, that's a law
firm in Dallas; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. And this bill has to do with research regarding the issue
of the Child Online Protection Act and things of that nature;
is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that bill was May of '99. Am I correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then I see another bill from the same firm in Dallas
dated June the 18th of '99. You see again research concerning
pending legislation on internet and access, et cetera, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And it also has various conferences between your husband,
Tom Reedy, and Bill Breitbarth concerning the operations of
Landslide.
A. Yes, sir.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - DIRECT - HEISKELL VOL IV, 788
Q. Janice, I want to ask you, and I want you to tell this
jury if you in any way, shape, form, or fashion participated or
aided and abetted in the transmission of images of child
pornography at any point in your life?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. And were you aware of such at the time that some of these
images were coming over the keyz.com matters that we heard
about earlier in this case?
A. No, sir, I was not.
Q. You've never been arrested before or anything like that,
have you?
A. No, sir, I have not been arrested.
Q. And you've never had to testify to anything like this
before, have you?
A. No, sir, I have not.
MR. HEISKELL: Pass the witness.
THE COURT: Is there additional direct?
MR. BALL: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Cross? Tell you what, let's take a
break. The jury has been in the box a good while. Let's
return at 4:00 o'clock.
(Jury out, 3:41 p.m.)
MR. HEISKELL: What time did you say, Judge?
THE COURT: 4:00 o'clock.
(Court in recess, 3:41 p.m. until 4:10 p.m.)
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 789
THE COURT: You may proceed.
MS. MOORE: Thank you, Your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Where are you living now?
A. I'm living with my father-in-law, Forrest Reedy.
Q. And how often do you see your husband?
A. At the attorney's offices and at pretrial and here.
Q. Okay. And that's since the indictment happened and all
this.
A, Yes. Since I was released, yes, ma'am.
Q. Okay. Now, I want to make sure that I understand what
you're saying, Ms. Reedy.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. So correct me if I'm wrong.
A. Okay.
Q. But when you went to work there, it was when?
A. I went to work there in June of '97.
Q. Okay. And in June of '97 Amy George is training you how
to do some bookkeeping.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q, Y'all are seeing offensive names.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And you're like, oh, whoa, what is that.
A. Yes, ma'am.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 790
Q. And she says, "Don't you worry about it."
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Am I stating this correctly so far?
A, Yes, ma'am.
Q. And you don't worry about it, and the next time you get
wind of anything is August of '99 when Carol Clark says
something to you about seeing child pornography.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. You are clueless from '97 until August of '99.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And then Carol says something, you ask your husband, and
he says, "I've turned it in to the FBI."
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And that's your testimony.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Now, Mr. Heiskell brought to you one of your exhibits.
Do you not have your exhibits up there with you?
A. No, ma'am, I do not.
MS. MOORE: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. He brought you up there this Defendant's Exhibit No. 1
and he turned to page 7 and he went up here to this fellow
that -- remember that e-mail that we showed that was very
incriminating against you about where you were chewing a guy
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 791
out for false pretenses?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And he used this document to say, "Oh, look, the name
right there doesn't say anything about child porn, right?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And you agreed with him.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Now, this is an internal document used by you to help
prepare checks and wire transfers, right?
A. To see what the chargeback ratio was, yes.
Q. So as a bookkeeper you're using this document all the
time.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. What would you say, every day?
A. I don't know, ma'am. I could not tell you that. We were
using it to see what the chargeback ratio was for the sales.
Q. So you just got through using this document to deny
knowledge of child pornography.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Well, I want to do something. I want to use this
document to show you did know, okay?
A. Okay.
Q. Let's look here. Now, first of all, let me back up for a
second. You said that this was an offensive name, when you
and -- when Amy George was showing you how to do the
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 792
bookkeeping. What name was it that was offensive?
A. I really do not remember.
Q. Was it about children or was it just about some adult
stuff that sounds trashy?
A. There was nothing -- I do not think there was anything at
that point named anything children. It was just very
offensive.
Q. It was just adult nasty talk.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. But it didn't involve a kid.
A. I do not --
Q. You can't remember the name.
A. No.
Q. All right. So you're using this document to look at the
chargebacks, and explain for us again what a chargeback is.
A. A chargeback is when a customer makes a charge, calls his
credit card company, and refuses the charge.
Q. And the credit card company takes it off his bill and
charges it back to you.
A. Yes, and they send us a little piece of paper.
Q. And y'all don't like chargebacks, right? Chargebacks are
a bad thing.
A. Chargebacks aren't good; this is true.
Q. Now, would you agree with me, you've got this AVS and
you've got the KeyZ.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 793
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And on the AVS stuff it's adult porn.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And some of the sites are nasty and they're offensive
sounding names.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And so when you say something is an offensive name, would
that be like "Pissing World" here on page 2 of 7?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Or "Shitting World" here on page 2 of 7?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Or how about "Dildo Training" on page 2 of 7?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Now, that's offensive names, right?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. So if you're using this for chargebacks and you see those
names, it conjures up an image in your mind, does it not?
A. I was explained that these names do not necessarily mean
what's in the site.
Q. Does "Pissing World" conjure up an image of something
vulgar and nasty and filthy in your mind?
A. Yes, ma'am, it does.
Q. What about "Dildo Training"?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. All right. Now, that's all having to do with the AVS
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 794
side of the business; is that right?
A. I do not know what sites these were, if they were AVS or
KeyZ.
Q. Well, okay. Let's talk about something that ought to
conjure up an image in your mind. What about xxxpreteen, does
that suggest adult or child to you?
A. It does suggest -- It does suggest a child, yes, ma'am.
Q. What about A Plus Spreading Teens?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Adult or child?
A. Adult -- I mean, child, I'm sorry.
Q. Child Rape.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Children Forced to Porn.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Children Playground, Nude.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Children of God.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Cyberlolita Preteen Underage.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. I am 14.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Russian Preteen.
A. Yes, ma'am.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 795
Q. First Hair.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Young Nude Kids.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. All of that suggests -- How about First Fucking With
Daddy?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. How about Little Girls?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. This is something you're using from 1997 until August of
1999 and you're telling this jury that you didn't have a clue
that there was child porn.
A. No, ma'am, I did not. I never went to any of those sites
and looked at them.
Q. Now, you just used this document to help you deny
knowledge of child porn.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. But yet we used the same document to have you admit there
was knowledge.
A. No, ma'am. Is that fair?
A. No, ma'am. I never went to the sites.
Q. Well, now, let's talk about that, ma'am. You held every
job there was in that business, did you not?
A. Yes, ma'am, I have.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 796
Q. You worked there from June of '97 until August of '99; is
that correct?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And you worked in customer service.
A. Yes, ma'am, I did work in customer service.
Q. And when David Cruz came to work there, you trained him
in customer service. Isn't that right?
A. I did train him in customer service, yes.
Q. And what is customer service?
A. Customer service is replying to customer e-mails from
people who have bought passwords and cannot gain access.
Q. So a customer calls in, griping that they can't get
access to their site.
A. To the site they had purchased, yes, ma'am.
Q. And that site may have a name like Child Porn, or
whatever.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And so the customer service representative goes to the
site to see if it's up or down.
A. Not necessarily.
Q. Ma'am, is David Cruz sitting right out there in that
hall?
A. Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am, he is.
Q. Did you train that man?
A. Yes, ma'am, I did.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 797
Q. Don't you have access to something called the god pages
that allowed you to go to that site without paying yourself?
A. No.
Q. Wait a minute. The customer, obviously, has to pay to go
see that site, but if you're going to go check on the site,
you don't have to pay for it. You've got a back road into it;
isn't that right?
A. No, ma'am, we do not.
Q. Okay. Well, let me ask you this: On David Cruz's
computer were there not images of child pornography where he
was accessing those sites in response to customer complaints
to see if it was up or down?
A. I have no idea. I was --
Q. Janice, you trained him.
A. I was not doing customer service after January of '98.
Q. You did customer service when?
A. Before January of '98.
Q. Well, you started there in June of '97 and you did, what,
bookkeeping?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Okay. And how long did you do bookkeeping?
A. I did bookkeeping from June to about August, and in
August I continued because -
Q. Of '97.
A. Yes, ma'am. Amy was still pregnant, still on her leave,
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
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and I began doing some customer service e-mails,
Q. Now, let's talk about them.
A. Okay.
Q. And not one time did you go pull up the site the customer
complained on?
A. At that point, there were no child pornography sites on
our system.
Q. Well, now how do you know that?
A. None of the sites I ever had to go to contained that
material.
Q. When did y'all start putting child pornography sites up?
A. As far as -- we never put child pornography material on
our system.
Q. Well, when did you start allowing access to web sites
that provided child pornography?
A. The webmaster would go to the page, download the code,
and it was there.
Q. When did you start allowing access to child pornography?
A. I have no idea.
Q. You don't know.
A. No, ma'am.
Q, Now, did you not receive e-mail after e-mail after e-mail
from people complaining about, hey, this is illegal. I hope
-- they cursed you in some e-mails, did they not?
A. I did not receive those e-mail.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
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Q. Were some of them not on your computer where they were
sent to you?
A. I do not know, ma'am.
Q. Who worked on the computers at home?
A. Which computers would those be?
Q. You had two at home, did you not?
A. Thomas had two at home, yes, ma'am.
Q. So those were Thomas's computers.
A. The Sony laptop was my computer.
Q. The Sony laptop was your computer, the one with the adult
classifieds on it?
A. No, ma'am. That was not the Sony laptop.
Q. Oh, there was another laptop.
A. Yes, ma'am, there were two laptops.
Q. It was the Sharp laptop that had the adult classifieds.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. So Thomas had the Sharp laptop and the other desktop that
had images of child pornography and the adult classifieds on
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Okay. And he worked exclusively on those? You had
nothing to do with it?
A. I did not use those computers, ma'am.
Q. Why would you not use those computers?
A. I had my own.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
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Q. Were those computers used to further the business of
Landslide?
A. His two computers?
Q. Yes, ma'am.
A. I assume so, yes.
Q. But why wouldn't you use them?
A. They didn't have QuickBooks on them; they didn't have the
programs that I used.
Q. And you're in that business every day. Did you go to the
business every day --
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. -- before it was shut down?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And you're talking to the employees every day.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And they don't say, man, these customers called in
and they said they were going to call the police on us or they
reported us to the FBI or that we were sick and this was
illegal?
A. They were supposed to instruct people to call their local
police agents.
Q. About what?
A. Of any -- If they found something that they felt was not
right, whatever, they were supposed to tell.
Q. Now, hold on Janice. What were -- If you didn't have a
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
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clue that -- Let me finish. If you didn't have a clue that
there was child pornography being run through your business
that you were allowing access, then what were the customer
service people supposed to instruct these people to call the
police about? You were otherwise totally legitimate is what
you just got through saying.
A. There are sites that are completely offensive out there,
and if the people did not like it and they had complaints
about it, they were instructed to talk to the webmaster or
contact their local police department.
Q. The AVS side of it had adult content.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. The KeyZ site of it had kiddy porn.
A. I do not believe the KeyZ side had total kiddy porn.
Q. What are you telling customers to call the cops about if
one half of your business is legitimate and you claim you had
no knowledge about the second half?
A. It was my understanding, and I could be wrong because I
am not a lawyer or a law enforcement agency at all, but things
like the sites you pointed out before, pissing and shitting,
are illegal. I did not think that was appropriate material
for anybody to be seeing if that's what they were doing.
Q. Now, in addition to customers calling in and saying this
stuff is illegal, you people ought to rot, okay, were you ever
made aware of customer complaints where customers said, hey,
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
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refund my money. My kid got my credit card and bought the
stuff.
A. They were quite often calls or e-mails saying that a
child had obtained the parent's credit card and gained access.
The money was refunded.
Q. Okay. So you knew about those e-mails.
A. Those kind of e-mails were there when I was doing
customer service, yes, ma'am.
Q. Okay. And yet you claim you are an adult verification
service.
A. My --
Q. Tell me, what did you do to determine the age of the
person sitting at the computer at his or her home?
A. You cannot determine the age of a person sitting at the
computer. My understanding and, again, I can be wrong.
Evidently I am or we wouldn't be here, was the CVA Act of 1996
followed by the Child Online Protection Act of 1998 stated
that a credit card could be used as an age verification for
people running adult web sites.
Q. So you're assuming if they've got a credit card they're
an adult, but you're not actually going any further than that
to determine the age of the person.
A. That is the only way we have to establish it.
Q. And so you are aware that there were customers that
called in that said my child got my credit card and purchased
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 803
this stuff and you need to refund me.
A. Yes. And the parents were made aware of at the time they
received their bill that the child had gained access.
Q. Now, what about the e-mails from the customers that said,
hey, I bought -- I purchased this site and there are
duplications on it. I already saw this over here on some
other site. They griped about that, didn't they?
A. I assume they did. I didn't do those e-mails.
Q. Well, plenty of them were forwarded on to you as well as
to Thomas, were they not?
A. I did not answer customer service e-mails.
Q. Now, what was it that you -- You said that you confronted
Thomas about this child stuff in August of 1999.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Now, what is it that makes you remember it was August of
1999?
A. It was just a little bit before the raid.
Q. So you deny knowledge until just like right before the
cops come.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And you think that's believable.
MR. HEISKELL: Your Honor, we'd object. That's
argumentative.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. HEISKELL: We'd ask the Court to disregard the
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 804
side bar.
THE COURT: Well, it hasn't been answered. The
objection is sustained.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Now, Ms. Reedy, you say that that got brought to your
attention by Carol.
A. Yes.
Q. Now, Carol got fired in July of '99.
A. Carol was still my friend.
Q. Okay. She was fired in July '99.
A. Yes, ma'am, she was.
Q. So she wasn't working there to tell it to you.
A. No, ma'am, she wasn't.
Q. Okay. Now, isn't it true that sometimes David Cruz, the
site manager, would delete these sites?
A. That he would push the delete button, yes, ma'am.
Q. And isn't it true that you chewed him out for that?
A. When he pushed that delete button the only thing it
deleted was the webmaster's information on where to send -- on
their address, their e-mail address, that stuff. It did not
delete the link from the web page.
Q. And so it was more important to you -- You do admit you
chewed him out for that.
A. I asked him not to do that, yes, ma'am.
Q. Okay. And it was more important to you to keep track of
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 805
your books so you could send that money than it was -- than
the content of the site which was so offensive that made him
delete it.
A. I did not know why he was deleting it.
Q, So when Amy George told you -- When you saw these names
back at the very beginning when you first started working
there and she told you not to worry about, you just didn't
worry about it for several years?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. You just went about your business seeing these names and
didn't worry about it for years.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. When you saw names like Child Rape, you didn't worry
about it.
A. I didn't like the names, but I did not do anything. I
did not just assume that that name meant that's what was on
the site.
Q. Why wouldn't you?
A. Because I was told that what this says right here does
not necessarily mean that's what's on that site.
Q. And you just accepted that. Who told you that?
A. My husband.
Q. So Thomas, when did he tell you that?
A. Early on.
Q. Okay. And you just accepted that. So Thomas has lied to
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
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you, is what you're here telling the jury today.
A. No, I do not believe he lied to me.
Q. So Thomas was telling you the truth that "Child Rape,
that's not child rape. That's just a bad name, Janice."
A. He didn't -- Okay. When that was told to me, there were
no child sites on there, and he said these names don't
necessarily mean what's on the site. And, yes, ma'am, I did
believe him.
Q. Ma'am, you sat in this courtroom and you saw us put up
image after image after disgusting image of children being
raped.
A. Yes, ma'am, I did.
Q. Thomas didn't lie to you?
A. Those images, as far as I know, he didn't know about.
Q. They were on your home computer.
A. I didn't know about them.
Q. Thomas didn't lie to you?
A. He did not tell me they were there, no, he did not.
Q. But he didn't lie to you? You're going to defend him but
yet attack him. I'm trying to figure this out. Help me with
this, Ms. Reedy.
MR. HEISKELL: Your Honor, I'm going to object as
argumentative.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. HEISKELL: Thank you.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 807
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Help me understand what you're saying. Thomas told you
he was working with the FBI, that he had turned all this in
and for you not to worry your pretty little head about it.
And you believed that.
A. Yes, ma'am, I did.
MR. HEISKELL: Object to the side bar comments.
THE COURT: I think that was part of the question.
Overruled.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. And you believed him.
A. Yes, ma'am, I believed him.
Q. And that was not a lie?
A. No, ma'am, it wasn't.
Q. So you're using Thomas but you're protecting him at the
same time. That's what you're doing here on this witness
stand. You want your cake and eat it, too; isn't that right?
A. I'm sorry. I do not understand.
Q. You want to come up and use Thomas, what he told you, so
you can escape responsibility, but yet you don't want to throw
him in the grease so you're protecting him, too. Yes, he told
me that but I believe it's the truth.
My question is: Do you want your cake and eat it, too?
Is that what you're trying to do?
A. I assume so. I did believe my husband.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 808
Q. When did the customer complaints increase, Ms. Reedy?
A. They steadily increased as the business grew.
Q. And did they get really heavy right before the raid?
A. I don't know.
Q. Didn't you testify to that through Mr. Heiskell, that the
complaints got heavy right before the raid?
A. The complaints grew heavier as the business increased.
The business was still increasing right before the raid.
Q. But even though the complaints were rolling in, nobody
told you customers were saying, "Y'all got illegal content"?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. Whose idea was it to separate AVS and KeyZ?
A. I'm sorry?
Q. Whose idea was it to have an AVS side and a KeyZ side?
A. Thomas created KeyZ.
Q. Okay. And if you were already operating an adult
verification service through AVS, why was KeyZ needed?
A. From my understanding, the webmasters wanted a place
where they could post their adult images or their images and
not have to share with this co-op of AVS.
Q. What determined which sites went to AVS and which sites
went to KeyZ?
A. The webmasters.
Q. You had nothing to do with that.
A. No, ma'am.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 809
Q. And do you agree that the KeyZ sites made more money?
A. (Pause) I do not know. I never did a statement or
anything stating KeyZ made this much and AVS made this much.
I do not know which side made more money.
Q. Who assigned -- In that book that I just showed you, this
document, this Defense Exhibit No. 1, that you used routinely
to know what to pay the webmasters, you know the one I showed
you that had all the names?
A. Yes.
Q. Who put those names in your document?
A. The webmasters.
Q. This is your document. This is from your place.
A. That document was pulled out of the database the
webmasters used. When the webmasters signed up, he chose his
name that he wanted his site to be called in our system. He
put his name and his address and the name of the site and all
that.
Q. I understand he chose the name Child Porn. Who put that
on this document that you used to make payroll, to do your
bookkeeping?
MR. HEISKELL: Excuse me, Your Honor. Are you
referring to No. l, payroll?
MS. MOORE: I am referring to Defendant's Exhibit
No. 1.
A. The chargeback ratio report.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 810
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. The chargeback.
A. Tom Hughes wrote a program that pulled those names and
all of that information from the database.
Q. So that was Tom Hughes that created that.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And used those names. So that you would have a list of
that for bookkeeping purposes.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Now, you disagreed with something that Inspector Huggins
said about the purpose of what y'all did at night when Alicia
was around.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. You disagreed with that. You heard Inspector Huggins
come in here and say that y'all protected Alicia by tending to
your work after she had gone to bed.
A. Yes, ma'am, we did.
Q. And so what Inspector Huggins was saying is y'all weren't
tending to this stuff in front of her in order to shield her
and protect her.
A. Yes, ma'am, we were not -- Can you repeat that again?
Q. Okay. What Inspector Huggins said is that you told him
that y'all did not tend to this business in her presence. You
waited until she went to bed at night.
A. That's correct.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 811
Q. Okay. In order to shield her from knowing about this.
A. To shield her from any business activity at all. From
the time she came home until the time she went to bed was
family time. It was hers.
Q. So that's my question. You are disagreeing with what
Inspector Huggins said you told him at the scene; is that
right? You're saying that, oh, no, we weren't shielding her
from the business. We were just taking advantage of family
time. Do you see the difference?
A. It's the same thing. I'm sorry.
Q. Okay. Well, what did Thomas do on his computer late at
night?
A. He programmed. I went to bed. I don't know.
Q. Okay. And do you know whether or not in the wee hours of
the morning he was in there viewing images of some of this
child pornography?
A. I wouldn't know, ma'am. I was asleep.
Q. Do you know whether or not he was attempting to make his
own child porn site?
A. I do not believe he was, but I wouldn't know. Again, I
was asleep.
Q. So you were asleep at home and you didn't know anything
at the business until right before the cops came.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And that's your story.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 812
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Let's talk about this e-mail, JR-A-2, if we can pull this
up. You'll have to help me understand this.
Now, let's go down to the very bottom of it there where
it starts out subject, KeyZ, from David, and blow that up.
David is your site manager, right, David Cruz?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Okay. This has already been admitted into evidence. It
says:
"Your site has been down for a while. Are you still
in business? Thanks, David."
And that was sent to Super Spammer. Go to the top
of that.
Let me get that little pointer so I can make sure -- So
David's e-mail was sent to Super Spammer.
THE COURT: We can barely hear you now.
MS. MOORE: Okay. Sorry, Judge.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Now, Super Spammer responded to David's question about
his site being down for a while, are you still in business.
And he says, starting here:
"I would like to remind you that I have not received
my check for April, something about $13,000. I also have
not received any answer to the message I sent you more
than a week ago. I'm bringing the site back online but I
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 813
began to develop certain doubts regarding whether or
not I am going to get paid. Unless I hear from you soon I
will have no other choice but to sign up with another
service and consider taking a legal action in order to
collect the payment that is due to me."
Okay. So that's what he writes in response to
David's question. Well, David then forwards this message to
you, and we'll go to the top, from sites@landslide, that's
David, isn't it?
A. Yes, ma'am, it is.
Q. To money@landslide.com. That's you, right?
A. Yes, ma'am, it is.
Q. And Houdini is your husband?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Okay. So David forwards this to you. And then you
respond to it, do you not?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And that is JR-A-1.
MS. MOORE: Now, if we can go to the bottom of that.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. You respond to that by saying:
"Dear sir, you will receive the check due to you
minus the chargebacks associated with your site that have
been received to date. Also, the renewal fees of
approximately $1600 will be held out due to the fact that
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 814
the site has not been working properly since May 1st,
1999. Any renewals that have been processed will result
in the form of a chargeback. Due to leading customers to
your site under false pretenses, we do expect to receive
more of these chargebacks. It is" -
MS. MOORE: And we'll go to the second page and
highlight it.
BY MS. MOORE:
"It is the policy of Landslide to charge the
webmasters all charges that we process for chargebacks
and refunds.
"Your site states that you have captured their IP
address and will be turning the user over to the
authority. Landslide would appreciate you to refrain
from setting up your site on our system in this manner.
Landslide does not, nor will it condone this type of
marketing."
What type of marketing were you talking about?
A. Fraudulent marketing.
Q. I'm sorry?
A. Fraudulent.
Q. Okay. Well, first of all, it says here that this fellow
was going to turn the user over to the authorities.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Okay. "Landslide would appreciate you from setting up
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 815
your site and it does not and will not condone this." Are you
talking about threatening to turn people into the police?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. So you're talking about the first part of your e-mail,
then, that says "Due to leading customers to your site under
false pretenses we do expect to receive more of these
chargebacks."
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Okay. So you didn't appreciate the false pretenses.
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. What false pretenses, Ms. Reedy? What did he do that was
false?
A. I was told that he was leading people to his site under
false pretenses.
Q. And what were the false pretenses?
MR. HEISKELL: Your Honor, would she please allow
the witness to answer the question.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
A. I didn't read the e-mails that were sent to the customer
service concerning this. This is what I was told.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Who told you?
A. I couldn't tell you. There's three people in customer
service e-mail. Any one of the three could have told me that.
Q. And you write an e-mail griping this guy out about using
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 816
false pretenses and telling him why you're going to deduct
money from him because there's going to be a chargeback
because of his false pretenses and you expect more to come.
And, by the way, you're threatening to turn people into the
cops and Landslide don't condone it, and you don't even know
what false pretenses this is referring to?
A. My understanding was that he was bringing people to his
site with nothing there.
Q. And what was his site?
A. I don't know.
Q. It was kiddyporn.com.
A. I don't know that.
Q. And you won't admit that because you won't admit that you
were chewing somebody out for advertising kiddy porn and they
didn't have it. Isn't that right?
A. I was not chewing anybody out for advertising kiddy porn.
Q. Well, let's see what his response is. We'll go to the
top of that e-mail.
"Thank you very much for your letter. I only have a
couple of necessary corrections to make: First, about
so-called 'false pretenses.' Every user who had signed
up received exactly what was advertised: access to a
huge collection of erotic images, no more and no less.
no misleading advertisement ever took place, no illegal
content in any form was ever mentioned, and the
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 817
disclaimer on the enter page clearly stated that the site
did not contain any child pornography or other illegal
material. People who expected to find it inside should
have read the disclaimer more carefully. They have no
legal and moral rights to complain about their own
stupidity, and I do not accept any responsibility for
their assumptions.
"Second, the site never stated that I will turn the
user over to the authorities. It stated though that it
might be done if the user is ever found trading child
pornography in the news groups or on IRC. I understand
it as my civil duty and it has nothing to do with
marketing.
"I understand that the site as it was may have been
a reason of you getting a lot of complaints as well as
chargebacks. It will undergo a major reconstruction in
order to comply with your policies before I bring it up.
Thanks."
So this e-mail wrote you back. This person wrote
you back. Are you denying that you saw his response?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. No, ma'am, you're not denying that you saw his response.
So within his response he's saying people who expected to find
some child porn didn't get it because I didn't promise it.
A. I wouldn't know what he promised those people. I did not
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 818
go to his site. I only responded to the letter.
Q. But, ma'am, this answer that he gives, all right, talks
about child pornography.
A. He talks about child pornography. I do not.
Q. And he is sending it back to you, and you just got
through telling us it wasn't until August of 1999 that you had
a clue.
A. That e-mail says that he did not have child pornography
on there. I didn't go to the site and read it. I've never
been to -- most of these sites, any sites, after I started
doing books in January of '98, I did not go to the sites. I
did not read the sites. I did not read the e-mails. I
responded to him by somebody coming to me and saying we're
getting a lot of complaints, we're getting a lot of
chargebacks.
Q. You chewed him out because he was using false pretenses
when he had a name like Kiddy Porn and yet he had no kiddies
on his porn. He responds back, "I never promised kiddy porn.
I had a disclaimer there, and anybody that expected it, too
bad." And you got that e-mail and you're telling us that you
didn't know that that's what it was about.
A. This is true. I did not chew him out for not carrying
kiddy porn.
Q. Now, you said there was nothing on that site; that he
advertised something yet there was nothing on that site.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 819
A. I don't know. I didn't go there.
Q. Well, why did you say there was nothing on his site? How
do you know there was nothing on his site if you didn't go
there?
A. This is what I understood.
Q. From whom?
A. I do not know. As you said, this e-mail was back when?
Q. How would you know that kiddyporn.org was misleading
unless you knew the name of the site that was misleading?
A. This is what -- That's what I was told.
Q. Okay. You saw an e-mail that we published in here from
your husband to Miranda where he jumped on his case for his
"lack of content," and he clearly said, "We will be monitoring
your site."
A. Yes, I saw that when you displayed it earlier.
Q. So Landslide monitored sites.
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Now, you said some of these sites had names but, oh, my
goodness, that's not really what it was about, right?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Which sites? Tell us which ones had awful names but
that's not what it was about.
MR. HEISKELL: That's been asked and answered.
THE COURT: Overruled.
A. I wouldn't know because I didn't visit the sites.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 820
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Well, then, how can you tell us they had names but they
didn't have the content?
A. I do not know.
Q. You don't know nothing.
A. No, ma'am, I guess I don't.
Q. Ms. Reedy, you outlined for us a life style with two
previous husbands that was not good.
A. No, ma'am.
Q. Is that right?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And so I take it that you were living a good life with
Mr. Reedy. That was a very nice home that you guys lived in.
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Had you ever lived in a house that good?
A. No, ma'am, I haven't, no.
Q. Had you ever been able to go down and just simply write
out a check for the entire purchase price of a vehicle before?
A. No, ma'am, I had not.
Q. And you had done that for your brand new vehicle that you
were driving; is that right?
A. Yes, ma'am, I did.
Q. And so it was a heck of an improvement over what you had
living; is that right?
A. Yes, it was very nice.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - REDIRECT - HEISKELL VOL IV, 821
Q. And you were willing to put up with it.
A. I did not know there was child porn on the system.
Q. Until right before the raid.
A. We did not put the child porn there. We had no control
over what webmasters put out there.
Q. But you cashed the checks, didn't you?
A. I assume I did. I cashed my payroll check for doing
accounting, yes, ma'am, I did.
Q. And you lived high on the hog, didn't you?
A. If that's how you want to put it, yes.
MS. MOORE: I'll pass the witness.
THE COURT: Is there redirect?
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. Ms. Reedy, Janice --
MR. HEISKELL: Will you put up JR-A-2. Can you blow
up, I'm sorry, the lower part, please. Yes.
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. What the government is trying to say is this matter,
kiddyporn.org, is something that you knew about; and you saw
and you read and went over many, many times in this e-mail.
Do you remember that?
A. Do I --
Q. Do you remember what they're trying to infer, right?
A. Yes, sir.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - REDIRECT - HEISKELL VOL IV, 822
Q. Now, we showed on direct examination earlier what you
have in front of you and you were looking at are your
chargebacks.
MR. HEISKELL: And, in fact, if you'll go over to
JR-A-l, please.
May I approach, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
MR. HEISKELL: Thank you.
And if you would highlight the bottom part. Yes.
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. And, in fact, within the first sentence, chargebacks in
the second line is mentioned by you; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, when you look at Defense Reedy Exhibit No. 2, what
we showed before and refers to this particular individual, on
page 7, you have the chargeback percentage on the left-hand
corner; is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And, in fact, that's the main area of this document
you're concerned with, the percentages of the chargeback,
correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then when you look at this particular person's web -
or site name and the document that you referred to on
chargebacks, does it say Kiddy Porn?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - REDIRECT - HEISKELL VOL IV, 823
A. No, sir, it doesn't.
Q. What does it say?
A. It says the KDP Collection.
Q. KDP Collection. Do you know what that meant at the time
you saw it?
A. No, sir.
Q. Now, this is the document you're operating from; is that
correct?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. HEISKELL: If you'll go to the top page, please.
Right there.
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. Now, you see here this person writes back to you saying
and it's part of some other -- or illegal material, he's
saying this site doesn't contain any child pornography or any
illegal material. That's what that says, doesn't it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. It doesn't say we have child pornography, does it?
A. No, it doesn't.
Q. And so any reference or any inference that this is saying
it has child pornography is incorrect, because this person,
KDP is saying, I don't have child pornography, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, the chargebacks, the documents, Defendant Reedy's 1
and 2, the percentages that you're concerned with on the
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - REDIRECT - HEISKELL VOL IV, 824
left-hand corner, or column, if you will, of that document,
correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, when you look at those percentages, they vary
between web sites.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what do you do with those chargeback percentages? Do
you do anything with it, or you just store or file it away or
how do you handle that particular document?
A. We try to monitor the chargeback percentages. To
maintain a merchant account you have to maintain a chargeback
percentage of less than 1 percent.
Q. So you have to maintain a certain amount of money in your
account with the banks in order to cover chargebacks; is that
what you're saying?
A. No. If the chargebacks exceed -- if the chargebacks
exceed the money taking in -- I don't know how to explain
this. If there's more than 1 percent of chargebacks compared
to money through the month, then your account can be
terminated. I think that's right. I'm not an accountant. I
do not know.
Q. Okay. But this is something your boss, Bill Breitbarth,
your supervisor, would know about.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he has access, or had access, to these documents,
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - REDIRECT - HEISKELL VOL IV, 825
correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And Thomas Hughes, your programmer?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he have access to these site names as far as you
knew?
A. To the site names that are printed?
Q. Yes, ma'am.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And he's your technical person.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And was he charged with all of this by the government?
A. No, sir, he was not.
Q. When you mentioned before the Child Protection Act, I
think you mentioned, and some other legislation, these are
things that you and I, in fact, have talked about in our
conversations, have we not?
A. Yes, sir, they are.
Q. The sites that the government prosecutor was asking you
about a few minutes ago that had those horrible names,
pissing.com and shitting.com, things of that nature. Do you
remember that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And I think it was your testimony that you said you
didn't know whether those were illegal or not because you're
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
J. REEDY - REDIRECT - HEISKELL VOL IV, 826
not a lawyer and if people complained you told them to call
their law enforcement.
A. This is correct.
Q. It's nothing to do with child porn at this point, right?
A. That is correct, yes, sir.
Q. And you didn't know anything about child porn; is that
right?
A. No, sir, I didn't. I didn't know.
Q. Are you lying to this jury, Janice, to protect yourself
or Thomas at all in any way?
A. No, sir, I'm not.
MR. HEISKELL: Pass the witness.
THE COURT: You may step down. Thank you.
Please call your next witness.
MR. HEISKELL: May I have just a moment, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
(Mr. Heiskell and Ms. Reedy confer.)
MR. HEISKELL: Your Honor, ladies and gentlemen of
the jury, Janice Lee Reedy rests her case.
THE COURT: All right. Does the government have
rebuttal?
MS. MOORE: The government closes, Your Honor,
THE COURT: The government has closed?
MS. MOORE: (Nods head.)
MR. BALL: Defendant Thomas Reedy and Landslide
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL IV, 827
close.
MR. HEISKELL: Janice Reedy rests and close.
THE COURT: All right. That completes the testimony
in this case. We cannot prepare a charge for you until all
the testimony is in. I have been working on the draft of a
charge. It's mostly complete, but now we have to review it to
make sure that the instructions to you on the law comport with
the testimony that has been received.
That means we've got some work to do this afternoon and
evening, and so there's no reason for you to hang around. We
won't be able to charge you today.
So I would like for you to return in the morning at 9:00
a.m. to receive the charge of the Court, then to hear the
final argument of the attorneys, and then to begin
deliberations.
Do any of you have any questions?
(No response.)
THE COURT: Please remember all of the instructions
that I have previously given you about not discussing the case
among yourselves. Even though the testimony is over, you
cannot begin deliberations or discussions among yourselves
until you've received the charge of the Court and heard the
final argument. And even then all discussions about the case
must take place in the presence of all the other jurors.
When you get home tonight, again, please take special
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL IV, 828
care to avoid any publicity about the case and also to not
discuss it with anyone at home.
We are at the end of the case. We want to make sure that
this does not have to be done over because of some pollution
of the jury by media coverage or inadvertent discussions of
the case with someone who knows nothing about it.
Accommodations still okay? Parking still okay?
Everything is all right. Please take your notebooks with you.
Remember you cannot look at each other's notebooks, at least
not until deliberation begin. And keep those there, and if
you have a little bit of extra time you probably should, if
you haven't already, you should probably take a look at the
indictment. That's the charging document that's important in
this case at this point.
Jim, thank you.
(Jury out, 4:59 p.m.)
THE COURT: Let's be seated. I don't recall whether
I have already awarded time for final argument. I don't
believe I did. If I'm wrong about it, please tell me.
All right. Ms. Moore.
MS. MOORE: Let's see, Judge, do we have time left
from all the time you've allotted us?
THE COURT: I'm not going to give you near that
much.
MS. MOORE: Okay. I was going to say I want the
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL IV, 829
balance of it.
THE COURT: If you can talk for six hours and 39
minutes, it might be worth it.
MS. MOORE: Judge, I think if I could have 30
minutes that would be plenty.
THE COURT: All right.
MS. MOORE: The government can have
30 minutes for
argument.
(Counsel confer.)
MS. MOORE: Forty minutes, Judge.
MR. HEISKELL: Judge, we were talking about 40;
20/20.
THE COURT: Can you talk about this case cogently
for 40 minutes?
MS. MOORE: No. I'll give you time back.
THE COURT: All right. Forty and 40.
MR. HEISKELL: And --
THE COURT: That's 20 to a side.
MR. HEISKELL: And can I have a five-minute warning
on mine, Your Honor, after I've have used 15?
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. BALL: I would make the same
request, Your
Honor.
THE COURT: Five-minute warnings for each. And you
are going to divide it 20 and 20.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL IV, 830
MR. BALL: Yes, sir.
MR. HEISKELL: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Okay. Ms. Moore, do you wish to have
any warnings?
MS. MOORE: Judge, I can't imagine that I would
actually take 40 minutes, but just in case, if you can give me
a two-minute warning before I've used all of it.
THE COURT: Now, what about your first, do you want
any warnings on your first?
MS. MOORE: I would say no warning on the first,
just two minutes.
THE COURT: Okay. Two-minute warning for the end.
MS. MOORE: Yes.
THE COURT: If I'm still awake when you get to 38
minutes, I'll give you a warning.
MS. MOORE: Okay.
THE COURT: All right. Is there any other matter we
need to take up before we recess, other than the fact we have
to discuss the charge?
MR. BALL: No.
THE COURT: Could you please -- if I could have
counsel in chambers in about five minutes to discuss the
charge.
MR. HEISKELL: Your Honor, can we go back on the
record. I apologize.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL IV, 831
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
MR. HEISKELL: And, Your Honor, pursuant to Rule 29
we would again, at the close of all the evidence, renew
Defendant Janice Reedy's motion for judgment of acquittal
pursuant to that rule for the same reasons previously
enumerated concerning the knowledge, the mens rea, if you
will, and the mental state of Janice Reedy regarding all of
the counts of the indictment.
THE COURT: Denied.
MR. BALL: And, Your Honor, we would renew the
motion for judgment of acquittal as to the counts under -- I
believe it's 2252A, the ones not identified by Detective
Girling from the United Kingdom under the case of Free Speech
Coalition versus Janet Reno that I believe -- I don't have the
citation in front of me. It was in an earlier pretrial
motion. As it appears to be language of that statute has been
held unconstitutional. I believe that's a Ninth Circuit case,
if I recall correctly.
THE COURT: We don't recognize Ninth Circuit law
here.
(Laughter.)
THE COURT: Overruled. Denied.
(Proceedings concluded for the day, 5:04 p.m.)
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
censored - names have been overwritten by UKLR to protect identities
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS
FORT WORTH DIVISION
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
. CRIMINAL ACTION NO.
. 4:00-CR-054-Y
VS.
.
.
HOMAS REEDY (1)
. December l, 2000
JANICE REEDY (2)
. 9:45 a.m.
LANDSLIDE, INC.(3)
.
. . . .
. . .
VOLUME V
TRIAL TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
BEFORE THE HONORABLE TERRY R. MEANS
UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE, and a jury.
APPEARANCES:
For the United States:
Ms. Terri M. Moore
Mr. Ronald C.H. Eddins
Assistant United States Attorneys
801 Cherry Street, Suite 1700
Fort Worth, Texas 76102
817) 252-5200
For Defendant Thomas
Mr. Wes Ball
Reedy and Landslide, Inc.: Ball & Hase
4025 Woodland Park Boulevard
Suite 100
Arlington, Texas 76013
(817) 860-5000
For Defendant Janice Reedy: Mr.
Michael P. Heiskell
Johnson, Vaughn & Heiskell
600 Texas Street, Second Floor
Fort Worth, Texas 76102-4612
(817) 877-5321
Official Court Reporter:
Eileen M. Brewer
501 West Tenth Street
Fort Worth, Texas 76102-3637
(817) 334-0104
Proceedings recorded by mechanical stenography, transcript produced by computer-aided transcription.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL V, 833
I N D E X
CLOSING: MS.MOORE
855
CLOSING: MR.BALL
870
CLOSING: MR.HEISKELL
882
CLOSING: MS.MOORE
891
VERDICT
901
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL V, 834
P R O C E E D I N G S,
(No jury present.)
THE COURT: The Charge of the Court has been prepared
and submitted to the parties, and the Court now will receive
objections.
MS. MOORE: No objections by the government, Your
Honor.
MR. BALL: Your Honor, we would make the following
objection. We would object to the Court's Charge for failure
to include an instruction in legally sufficient language to
charge on the defense of good faith reliance upon advice of
counsel. And that's the only objection that we have.
And I would direct the Court's attention to Defendant's
Exhibit No. 7 as evidence for the basis of that objection.
THE COURT: Thank you. Objection is overruled.
Mr. Heiskell?
MR. HEISKELL: Yes, Your Honor. My objection is
pursuant to the previously filed motion to dismiss the
indictment, and as the Court will recall that motion alleged
that the indictment itself is multiplicitious and set forth
certain cases and argument in support of this motion.
The government replied that the remedy is not a dismissal
of the indictment but perhaps for the government to, at some
point, elect on which counts to proceed. At this juncture,
since the Court is submitting to the jury all of the counts in
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL V, 835
the indictment, we would object under that theory advanced in
the prior motion to dismiss the indictment and submit to the
Court that the government's -- the government should be
required to elect as to which of the counts that are not
multiplicitious and should submit to the jury for its
consideration.
THE COURT: Ms. Moore, I want to make sure that our
discussion we had in chambers yesterday has resulted in the
charge that I now have, and I frankly can't recall. Did we
decide to submit all of the counts and to weed it out for
sentencing should there be a conviction, or did we decide to
submit one group of counts and not another?
MR. EDDINS: I believe the decision was the former,
Your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay. That's my recollection, but I
wanted to make sure.
MR. BALL: Your Honor, I want to make sure under the
Court's scheduling order about the necessity not to necessarily
join objections, that the defendants Thomas Reedy and Landslide
join in the objection made by Mr. Heiskell.
THE COURT: A11 right.
The objection of the defendants to the charge phrased by
Mr. Heiskell is also overruled, and the charge of the Court is
ready to be submitted. We will then call down the jury just
momentarily.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL V, 836
(Jury in, 9:48 a.m.)
THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, you have been
provided each with a copy of the charge of the Court. I'm
going to read it to you now. You may listen and not follow
along as I read it, or if you retain better by reading along
with me, that's what it's there for.
Members of the jury, in any trial there are, in effect,
two judges. I am one of the judges; the other is the jury. It
is my duty to preside over the trial and to decide what
evidence is proper for your consideration. It is also my duty
at the end of the trial to explain to you the rules of law that
you must follow and apply in arriving at your verdict.
First, I will give you some general instructions which
apply in every case, for example, instructions about burden of
proof and how to the judge the believability of witnesses.
Then I will give you some specific rules of law about this
particular case, and finally I will explain to you the
procedures you should follow in your deliberations.
You, as jurors, are the judges of the facts. But in
determining what actually happened, that is, in reaching your
decision as to the facts, it is your sworn duty to follow all
of the rules of law as I explain them to you.
You have no right to disregard or give special attention
to any one instruction, or to question the wisdom or
correctness of any rule I may state to you. You must not
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL V, 837
substitute or follow your own notion or opinion as to what the
law is or ought to be. It is your duty to apply the law as I
explain it to you, regardless of the consequences. It is also
your duty to base your verdict solely upon the evidence,
without prejudice or sympathy. That was the promise you made
and the oath you took before being accepted by the parties as
jurors, and they have the right to expect nothing less.
The indictment or formal charge against a defendant is not
evidence of guilt. Indeed, a defendant is presumed by the law
to be innocent. The law does not require a defendant to prove
his innocence or produce any evidence at all, and no inference
whatever may be drawn from the election of a defendant not to
testify. The government has the burden of proving a defendant
guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, and if it fails to do so, you
must acquit that defendant.
While the government's burden of proof is a strict or
heavy burden, it is not necessary that a defendant's guilt be
proven beyond all possible doubt. It is only required that the
government's proof exclude any "reasonable doubt" concerning a
defendant's guilt.
A "reasonable doubt" is a doubt based upon reason and
common sense after careful and impartial consideration of all
the evidence in the case. Proof beyond a reasonable doubt,
therefore, is proof of such a convincing character that you
would be willing to rely and act upon it without hesitation in
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL V, 838
the most important of your own affairs. If you are convinced
that an accused has been proven guilty beyond a reasonable
doubt, say so. If you are not convinced, say so.
As I told you earlier, it is your duty to determine the
facts. In doing so, you must consider only the evidence
presented during the trial, including the sworn testimony of
the witnesses and the exhibits.
Remember that any statements, objections, or arguments
made by the lawyers are not evidence. The function of the
lawyers is to point out those things that are most significant
or most helpful to their respective sides of the case, and in
so doing to call your attention to certain facts or inferences
that might otherwise escape your notice. In the final
analysis, however, it is your own recollection and
interpretation of the evidence that control in the case. What
the lawyers say is not binding upon you.
Also, do not assume from anything I may have done or said
during the trial that I have any opinion concerning any of the
issues in this case. Except for the instructions to you on the
law, you should disregard anything I may have said during the
trial in arriving at your own findings as to the facts.
While you should consider only the evidence, you are
permitted to draw such reasonable inferences from the testimony
and exhibits as you feel are justified in the light of common
experience. In other words, you may make deductions and reach
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL V, 839
conclusions that reason and common sense lead you to draw from
the facts that have been established by the evidence.
You should not be concerned about whether the evidence is
direct or circumstantial. "Direct evidence" is the testimony
of one who asserts actual knowledge of a fact, such as an
eyewitness. "Circumstantial evidence" is proof of a chain of
facts and circumstances indicating that something is or is not
a fact. The law makes no distinction between the weight you
may give to either direct or circumstantial evidence.
I remind you that it is your job to decide whether the
government has proven the guilt of the defendant under
consideration beyond a reasonable doubt. In doing so, you must
consider all of the evidence. This does not mean, however,
that you must accept all of the evidence as true or accurate.
You are the sole judges of the credibility or
"believability" of each witness and the weight to be given the
witness's testimony. An important part of your job will be
making judgments about the testimony of the witnesses. You
should decide whether you believe what each witness had to say
and how important that testimony was.
In making that decision I suggest that you ask yourself a
few questions: Did the witness impress you as honest? Did the
witness have any particular reason not to tell the truth? Did
the witness have a personal interest in the outcome of the
case? Did the witness have any relationship with either the
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL V, 840
government or the defense? Did the witness seem to have a good
memory? Did the witness have the opportunity and ability to
understand the questions clearly and answer them directly? Did
the witness's testimony differ from the testimony of other
witnesses? These are a few of the considerations that will
help you determine the accuracy of what each witness said.
In making up your mind and reaching a verdict, do not make
any decisions simply because there were more witnesses on one
side than on the other. Do not reach a conclusion on a
particular point just because there were more witnesses
testifying for one side on that point. Your job is to think
about the testimony of each witness you have heard and decide
how much you believe of what each witness had to say.
In any criminal case the government must prove not only
the essential elements of the offense or offenses charged, as
hereinafter defined, but must also prove, of course, the
identity of the defendant under consideration as the
perpetrator of the alleged offense or offenses.
You will note that the indictment charges that the
offenses were committed on or about a specified date. The
government does not have to prove that the crimes were committed
on the exact date so long as the government proves
beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant under
consideration committed the crime on a date reasonably near the
date stated in the count of the indictment you are considering.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL V, 841
Merely because an expert witness has expressed an opinion
does not mean that you must accept this opinion. The same as
with any other witness, it is up to you to decide whether you
believe the expert's testimony and choose to rely upon it.
Part of that decision will depend on your judgment about
whether the witness's background or training and experience is
sufficient for the witness to give the expert opinion that you
heard. You must also decide whether the witness's opinions
were based on sound reasons, judgment, and information.
Count 1 of the indictment charges Thomas Reedy, Janice
Reedy, Landslide, Incorporated, and others with violating 18
United States Code, Section 2252(a)(1) and (b)(1). Title 18,
United States Code, Section 2252(a)(1) and (b)(1) makes it a
crime to conspire to knowingly transport or ship in interstate
or foreign commerce by any means including by computer or
mails, any visual depiction, if: (A) the producing of such
visual depiction involves the use of a minor engaging in
sexually explicit conduct; and (B) such depiction is of such
conduct.
A "conspiracy" is an agreement between two or more persons
to join together to accomplish some unlawful purpose. It is a
kind of "partnership in crime" in which each member becomes the
agent of every other member.
The word "knowingly," as that term has been used from time
to time in these instructions, means that the act was done
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL V, 842
voluntarily and intentionally, not because of mistake or
accident.
A corporation is a legal entity and may be considered by
you as such.
"Commerce" includes travel, trade, transportation, and
communication. "Interstate commerce" means commerce or travel
between one state, territory, or possession of the United
States and another state, territory, or possession of the United
States, including the District of Columbia.
"Foreign commerce" means commerce or travel between any
part of the United States including its territorial waters, and
any other country, including its territorial waters.
For you to find the defendant under consideration guilty
of this crime, you must be convinced that the government has
proven each of the following beyond a reasonable doubt:
First, that two or more persons made an agreement to
commit the crime as charged in Count 1 of the indictment.
Second, that the defendant under consideration knew the
unlawful purpose of the agreement and joined in it willfully,
that is, with the intent to further the unlawful purpose.
And, third, that one of the conspirators during the
existence of the conspiracy knowingly committed at least one of
the overt acts described in Counts 2 through 44 of the
indictment, in order to accomplish some object or purpose of
the conspiracy.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL V, 843
One may become a member of a conspiracy without knowing
all the details of the unlawful scheme or the identities of all
the other alleged conspirators. If a defendant understands the
unlawful nature of a plan or scheme and knowingly and
intentionally joins in that plan or scheme on one occasion,
that is sufficient to convict him for conspiracy even though
that defendant had not participated before and even though that
defendant played only a minor part.
The government need not prove that the alleged
conspirators entered into any formal agreement, nor that they
directly stated between themselves all the details of the
scheme. Similarly, the government need not prove that all of
the details of the scheme alleged in the indictment were
actually agreed upon or carried out. Nor must it prove that
all of the persons alleged to have been members of the
conspiracy were such, or that the alleged conspirators actually
succeeded in accomplishing their unlawful objectives.
Mere presence at the scene of an event, even with
knowledge that a crime is being committed, or the mere fact
that certain persons may have associated with each other, and
may have assembled together and discussed common aims and
interests, does not necessarily establish proof of the
existence of a conspiracy. Also, a person who has no knowledge
of a conspiracy but who happens to act in a way which advances
some purpose of a conspiracy, does not thereby become a
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL V, 844
conspirator.
In determining whether a defendant was a member of an
alleged conspiracy, however, the jury should consider only that
evidence, if any, pertaining to his own acts and statements.
He is not responsible for the act or declarations of other
alleged participants until it is established beyond a
reasonable doubt, first, that a conspiracy existed, and,
second, from the evidence of his own acts and statements, that
the defendant was one of its members.
On the other hand, if and when it does appear from a
reasonable doubt -- Pardon me. When it does appear beyond a
reasonable doubt from the evidence in the case that a
conspiracy did exist as charged and that the defendant under
consideration was one of its members, then the statements and
acts knowingly made during such conspiracy and in furtherance
of its objects, by any other proven member of the conspiracy,
may be considered by the jury as evidence against that
defendant even though he was not present to hear the statement
made or see the act done.
This is true because a conspiracy is a kind of
"partnership" so that under the law each member is an agent or
partner of every other member, and each member is bound by or
responsible for the acts and statements of every other member
made in pursuance of their unlawful scheme.
Counts 2 through 44 of the indictment charge Thomas Reedy,
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL V, 845
Janice Reedy, Landslide, Incorporated, and others with
violating 18 United States Code, Sections 2252 and 2. Title
18, United States Code, Section 2252 makes it a crime for
anyone to knowingly transport or ship in interstate or foreign
commerce by any means, including by computer or mails, any
visual depiction, if: (A) the producing of such visual
depiction involves the use of a minor engaging in sexually
explicit conduct; and (B) such depiction is of such conduct.
For the purposes of this violation the term, one, "minor"
means any person under the age of 18 years. Two, "sexually
explicit conduct" means actual or simulated: (A) sexual
intercourse, including genital to genital, oral to genital,
anal-genital, or oral-anal, whether being persons of the same
or opposite sex; (B) beastality; (C) masturbation; (D) sadistic
or masochistic abuse; or (E) lascivious exhibition of the
genitals or pubic area of any person.
Three, "visual depiction" includes undeveloped film and
videotape and data stored on computer disk or by electronic
means which is capable of conversion into a visual image. And
computer means any electronic, magnetic, optical,
electrochemical, or other high-speed data processing device
performing logical, arithmetic, or storage functions, and
includes any data-storage facility or communications facility
directly related to or operating in conjunction with such
device. But such term does not include an automated typewriter
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL V, 846
or typesetter, a portable handheld calculator, or other similar
device.
For you to find the defendant under consideration guilty
of this crime, you must be convinced that the government has
proven each of the following beyond a reasonable doubt:
First, that the defendant under consideration knowingly
transported or shipped, or caused to be transported or shipped,
in interstate or foreign commerce by any means including by
computer, the visual depiction described in the count.
And, second, that the defendant under consideration knew
that the visual depiction involved the use of a minor engaged
in sexually explicit conduct.
And, third, that the visual depiction was of such conduct.
Count 45 of the indictment charges Thomas Reedy, Janice
Reedy, Landslide, Incorporated, and others with violating 18
United States Code, Section 2252A(a)(1) and (b)(1). Title 18,
United States Code, Section 2252A(a)(1) and (b)(1) makes it a
crime to conspire to knowingly mail or transport or ship in
interstate or foreign commerce by any means, including by
computer, any child pornography.
"Child pornography" means any visual depiction, including
any photograph, film, video, picture, or computer, or
computer-generated image or picture, whether made or produced
by electronic, mechanical, or other means, of sexually explicit
conduct where: (A) the production of such visual depiction
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL V, 847
involves the use of a minor engaging in sexually explicit
conduct; (B) such visual depiction is, or appears to be, of a
minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct; (C) such visual
depiction has been created, adapted, or modified to appear that
an identifiable minor is engaging in sexually explicit conduct;
or (D) such visual depiction is advertised, promoted,
presented, described, or distributed in such a manner that
conveys the impression that the material is or contains a
visual depiction of a minor engaging in sexually explicit
conduct.
"Identifiable minor" means a person who was a minor at the
time the visual depiction was created, adapted, or modified, or
whose image as a minor was used in creating, adapting, or
modifying a visual depiction; and who is recognizable as an
actual person by the person's face, likeness, or other
distinguishing characteristic, such as a unique birthmark or
other recognizable feature.
For you to find the defendant under consideration guilty
of this crime, you must be convinced that the government has
proven each of the following beyond a reasonable doubt: First,
that two or more persons made an agreement to commit the crime
charged in Count 45 of the indictment.
Second, that the defendant under consideration knew the
unlawful purpose of the agreement and joined in it willfully,
that is, with the intent to further the unlawful purpose.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL V, 848
And, third, that one of the conspirators during the
existence of the conspiracy knowingly committed at least one of
the overt acts described in Counts 46 through 88 of the
indictment, in order to accomplish some object or purpose of the
conspiracy.
Counts 46 through 88 of the indictment charge Thomas
Reedy, Janice Reedy, Landslide, Inc., and others with violating
18 United States Code, Sections 2252A and 2. Title 18, United
States Code, Section 2252A makes it a crime for anyone to
knowingly mail or transport or ship in interstate or foreign
commerce by any means, including by computer, any child
pornography.
For you to find the defendant under consideration guilty
of this crime, you must be convinced that the government has
proven each of the following beyond a reasonable doubt.
First, that the defendant under consideration knowingly
shipped or transported, or caused to be shipped or transported
in interstate or foreign commerce, child pornography.
And, second, that the shipment or transportation was by
any means, including by computer.
Third, that the defendant under consideration knew at the
time that the material was child pornography.
The defendants are charged in Count 89 of the indictment
with possession of child pornography, in violation of 18 United
States Code, Section 2252A(a)(5)(B). Title 18, United States
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL V, 849
Code, Section 2252A(a)(5)(B) makes it a crime for anyone to
knowingly possess any book, magazine, periodicals, film,
videotape, computer disk, or any other material that contains
an image of child pornography that has been mailed, or shipped
or transported in interstate or foreign commerce by any means,
including by computer, or that was produced using materials
that had been mailed, or shipped or transported in interstate
or foreign commerce by any means, including by computer.
The word "possess" means to own or to exert control over.
The word "possession" can take on several different, but
related, meanings. "Possession," as that term is used in this
case, may be of two kinds: actual possession and constructive
possession. A person who knowingly has direct physical control
over a thing, at a given time, is then in actual possession of
it.
A person who, although not in actual possession, knowingly
has both the power and the intention, at a given time, to
exercise dominion or control over a thing, either directly or
through another person or persons, is then in constructive
possession of it.
Possession may be sole or joint. If one person alone has
actual or constructive possession of a thing, possession is
sole. If two or more persons share actual or constructive
possession of a thing, possession is joint.
You may find that the element of possession, as that term
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
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is used in these instructions, is present if you find beyond a
reasonable doubt that the defendant under consideration had
actual or constructive possession, either alone or jointly with
others.
For you to find the defendant under consideration guilty
of this crime, you must be convinced that the government has
proven each of the following beyond a reasonable doubt:
First, that on or about September 8th, 1999, the defendant
under consideration knowingly possessed at least one visual
depiction containing an image or images of child pornography;
and, second, that the visual depiction in the possession of the
defendant under consideration was produced using materials that
had been mailed or shipped or transported in interstate or
foreign commerce by any means, including computer.
In each of Counts 2 through 44 and Counts 46 through 88 of
the indictment, reference is made to the provisions of Title
18, United States Code, Section 2. Under that statute, the
guilt of a defendant in a criminal case may be established
without proof that the defendant personally did every act
constituting the offense alleged. The law recognizes that
ordinarily, anything a person can do for himself may also be
accomplished by that person through direction of another person
as his or her agent, or by acting in concert with, or under the
direction of, another person or persons in a joint effort or
enterprise.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL V, 851
If another person is acting under the direction of a
defendant or if defendant joins another person and performs
acts with the intent to commit a crime, then the law holds that
defendant responsible for the acts and conduct of such other
persons just as though that defendant had committed the acts or
engaged in such conduct.
Before any defendant may be held criminally responsible
for the acts of others it is necessary that that defendant
deliberately associate himself in some way with the crime and
participate in it with the intent to bring about the crime.
Of course, mere presence at the scene of a crime and
knowledge that a crime is being committed are not sufficient to
establish that a defendant either directed or aided and abetted
the crime unless you find beyond a reasonable doubt that that
defendant was a participant and not merely a knowing spectator.
In other words, you may not find the defendant under
consideration guilty unless you find beyond a reasonable doubt
that every element of the offense as defined in these
instructions was committed by some person or persons, and that
the defendant under consideration voluntarily participated in
its commission with the intent to violate the law.
You are here to decide whether the government has proven
beyond a reasonable doubt that each of the defendants,
considered separately, is guilty of the crimes charged. The
defendants are not on trial for any act, conduct, or offense
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL V, 852
not alleged in the indictment.
A separate crime is charged in each count of the
indictment. Each count and the evidence pertaining to that
count should be considered separately and individually.
The fact that you may find the defendant under consideration
guilty or not guilty as to one or more counts should not
control your verdict as to any other count. You must give
separate consideration to the evidence as to each defendant.
If one or more of the defendants is found guilty, it will
be my duty to decide what the punishment will be. You should
not be concerned with punishment in any way. It should not
enter your consideration or discussion.
You will note that the indictment charges that the offense
was committed on or about a specified date. The government
does not have to prove that the crime was committed on that
exact date, so long as the government proves beyond a
reasonable doubt that the defendant under consideration
committed the crime on a date reasonably near the dates stated
in the indictment.
To reach a verdict, all of you must agree. Your verdict
must be unanimous as to each defendant on each count of the
indictment. Your deliberations will be secret. You will never
have to explain your verdict to anyone.
It is your duty to consult with one another and to
deliberate in an effort to reach agreement if you can do so.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL V, 853
You must individually decide the case for yourselves, but only
after an impartial consideration of the evidence with your
fellow jurors.
During your deliberations do not hesitate to reexamine
your own opinions and change your mind if convinced that you
were wrong. But do not give up your honest beliefs as to the
weight or effect of the evidence solely because of the opinion
of your fellow jurors, or for the mere purpose of returning a
verdict.
Remember at all times, you are judges, judges of the
facts. Your sole interest is to seek the truth from the
evidence in the case, to decide whether the government has
proven the defendant under consideration guilty beyond a
reasonable doubt.
When you go to the jury room, the first thing that you
should do is select one of your number as your presiding juror,
who will help to guide your deliberations and will speak for
you here in the courtroom.
A form of verdict has been prepared for your convenience.
The presiding juror will write the unanimous answer of the jury
in the space provided for each defendant and for each count of
the indictment, either guilty or not guilty. At the conclusion
of your deliberations, the presiding juror should date and sign
the verdict.
If you need to communicate with me during your
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL V, 854
deliberations, the presiding juror should write the message on
the form provided in the jury room, sign and date the form, and
give it to the marshal. I will either reply in writing or
bring you back into the courtroom to answer your message.
Bear in mind that you are never to reveal to any person,
not even to the Court, how the jury stands, numerically or
otherwise, on any count of the indictment until after you have
reached a unanimous verdict.
Dated December 1st, 2000, Terry R. Means, United States
District Judge.
Do any of you have any questions?
(No response.)
THE COURT: This is your document. You may write on
it, highlight it, do whatever you need to do to master it. It
is your guide in deciding this case, and you should decide it
under these instructions only.
I have awarded 40 minutes to a side for final argument.
The parties are not required to take that full amount of time,
but they may if they choose.
The government will open and close since it has the burden
of proof. The defendants are going to divide their time 20
minutes each to each defendant -- to each human defendant.
Ms. Moore, will you be arguing for the government?
MS. MOORE: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may proceed.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL V, 855
MS. MOORE: Ladies and gentlemen, I would like to
thank you before we get started here for paying close attention
to some very difficult evidence during this week. You may
never want to serve on another jury. If you didn't, it would
be very understandable.
But the Judge has just read to you the Court's charge, and
that Court's charge contains all the law that you need to guide
you in your deliberations. And basically let me tell you this,
too, as a housekeeping thing. All of this evidence that has
been admitted is yours. You can just have the foreman sign a
note saying "send in the evidence," and you can take -- or you
may have to be a little more specific than that, but you can
take it to the jury room with you and you can look at it.
There are videotapes there. I guess if you need a VCR, if you
wanted to watch them, for example, you could request that. It
would be brought to you.
The Web Buddy stuff, I'm not sure how that would work, but
you probably would have to come back out in the courtroom so it
could be shown to you out here.
But let me say this. The images that are on the
videotapes and they're on the Web Buddy, are also in those
binders. They are the images that represent the counts of the
indictment 2 through 44 and then 46 through 88. And then also
Count 89, the possession count, it's got 70 some odd images in
there. I think they are labeled TR for Thomas Reedy A-1
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL V, 856
through -- I don't know what it is, but they're in there and
you can take it in there and go through it. It's got the
e-mails, it's got the images, it's got everything.
And when you're reading those e-mails, just another little
housekeeping thing. Remember to start at the bottom and read
up. That's the way they're presented for those of you that
have experience with that sort of thing, you know it. For
those of us that don't, that's a helpful hint.
But, nevertheless, feel free to ask for the stuff and take
it back there. And let the Court's charge be your guide, and
keep in mind that we have to prove what's in this Court's
charge, nothing more and certainly nothing less. And the Judge
lays it out for you. Whenever he's getting to the counts of
the indictment, the government has to prove first, second,
third. I mean, it's just that simple. You look at it just
that simply when you're trying to analyze the evidence.
And recall what I told you at the very beginning that the
way it's laid out in the indictment, the first allegations deal
with Title 18, United States Code, Section 2252. And that's
the one that involves real children. And then the backup
statute is in there, 2252A, and that's the one that says we
don't care if they're real or not. If it's child pornography,
good enough.
Let me just say this on that matter. We brought you
Sharon Girling, the police detective from England, and she told
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL V, 857
you about censored and her little brother censored, okay? And you
know that those children are real people. You heard that
testimony, and there is no doubt that you felt their misery,
okay? But there is absolutely no reason not to think that the
other kids are real people, too. They've not brought any kind
of doubt upon that. And just because there wasn't somebody
else to come in and say, "I know this kid, this kid, and this
kid," there is nothing to suggest that these are not real
children who suffered. So I submit find them guilty on both
2252 as well as 2252A. Matters not.
Now, when you're going through this, you know there's a
conspiracy count in Count 1 to violate 2252. And then when you
get over to the other statute, 2252A, there's a conspiracy
count -- I think it's Count 45 -- to violate 2252A.
Now, what is it that we have to prove? Again, the Judge
lays it out first, second, third, in each one of these. And
the only real difference in the conspiracy thing is we have to
show there's an agreement, okay? An agreement between these
people to do these things, to transport these images in
interstate commerce, images of child pornography.
So what evidence is there of an agreement? Well, I submit
to you that the first evidence, the big evidence, is the money.
It's the financial arrangement between these defendants,
Landslide included, and the webmasters. They've got a 60/40
split. The webmasters get 60 percent of the money. These
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL V, 858
people get 40 percent of the money. That's your first big
piece of evidence that there's an agreement between them.
The next piece of evidence that is indicative that there
is an agreement is look at the banners that were found on the
Sun system. I think it's under Sun in these folders up here,
Sun 1, Sun whatever. The Sun series. That's the computer out
at the business, and you will see "For Child Porn Click Here."
You'll see that banner. You will see the Fling Little Kids
banner. That's on their computers. Well, those very same
banners are found on the home pages, the home pages, of these
webmasters. Lolita World, at the bottom, "For Child Porn
Click Here."
And what happens when you click here for child porn? It
takes you right back to Landslide so you can pay your money.
That is evidence of an agreement between these people. It's
also evidence of knowledge of what's going on.
Now, what's another element as the Judge lays it out,
first they have to prove, second they have to prove, what's
another element that we have to prove? We have to prove that
these images that you saw were child pornography, okay? And
there is, of course, that's a slam dunk, da, you know. Of
course it's child pornography. These are children engaged in
sexually explicit conduct. You didn't see any photos of just a
pleasant little picture of a little kid. Every one of them
were displayed in a sexual manner, and so that element is
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL V, 859
proven, just like the agreement element on the conspiracy
count.
What else do we have to prove? We have to prove that
those images were transported -- transported is an element.
And interstate commerce is an element. Now, what evidence do
we have of that? I'm going through this mechanically, because
that's the way you should go through and organize this
mechanically. What does the government have to prove? What is
the evidence to prove that element, okay?
Transporting. Well, you heard Detective Steve Nelson
testify that he did a VisualRoute after he purchased every one
of those dirty sites. After he purchased it, he did a
VisualRoute to see where the server was that was hosting it.
And you've got the VisualRoutes in there and you'll see the
hop, okay, and you'll see where it's ultimately resting either
in Virginia or New York or California or Japan. Well, it
necessarily has to travel in interstate commerce to reach the
subscriber. So it's being transported. It is being
transported, and the whole while it is affecting interstate
commerce, both interstate and foreign commerce. The wire
transfers that were involved in this case, the checks that were
being mailed, those are other things that go to show you
interstate and foreign commerce.
As far as the Count 89 of the indictment goes, remember
the possession count? Here's something else that we put on for
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL V, 860
you. Maybe you understood why it was being offered at the
time; maybe it's not clear until now. But remember the lady,
Ms. Mendoza, that came from Sharp? She said this was
manufactured in Thailand. The purpose of her testimony:
interstate commerce.
The other fellow whose name I can't pronounce that came
from IBM, you know, because there were images found on both of
those computers at their house for the possession count. He
says it was manufactured in Japan. Why did we call him? To
prove interstate commerce. The materials were produced with
items that affected interstate commerce.
So, again, what have we proven? We have proved for the
conspiracy that there was an agreement. For the other counts
we also proved the same elements. We've proved that it was
transported, that it was child pornography. And it was
transported -- And let me say this on the transporting issue
so, you know, well, they didn't transport it. Well, yes,
they did transport it. They aided and abetted in the transporting
of it. Remember, you couldn't get into the dirty site until
you had gone through Landslide first and they had opened the
door, okay? So the subscriber is knocking on the door, he
can't get in until Landslide says give me your money, give me
your password, I'll give you your user, and then open the door
for you to go on in to get the child pornography. That, ladies
and gentlemen, is aiding and abetting in the transportation of
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL V, 861
child pornography.
What are the other elements? We have to prove that it was
done by a computer. That's what this whole case, everything
is a computer. So clearly we've proven that. So what is this
really about? What is the real element that we're fighting
over in here today? It's knowledge, isn't it, because we have
to prove that they knew what they were involved in. Knowledge.
The Judge gives you a definition right here of what
knowingly means. It is an act that was done voluntarily and
intentionally and not because of mistake or accident. So let's
talk for just a second here about knowledge.
How do you know that they knew that they were involved in
the distribution or transportation of child pornography? Well,
the first big piece of evidence that you have is they said they
knew. It came from their own mouths that they knew, and which
witness told you that? Inspector Steed Huggins told you that.
What did Steed tell you? He said that Thomas Reedy came to the
United States Attorney's Office, he sat there flanked by two
lawyers, okay, and there were other inspectors in there as well
and he said he knew it. He said Janice knew it. He said his
brother ion knew it, he said -- Who else knew it? He said Tom
Hughes knew it. They all knew it. They knew what they were
doing. They all knew it, and you know that because it came
from his own mouth.
Now, what about Janice? Well, she told Inspector Steed
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL V, 862
Huggins from her own mouth, too, right out there on Seaman
Street the day they ran the raid that she knew it, that she
knew that you had to go through Landslide in order to get to
Fling Little Kids, okay?
Now, well after the fact, the only time she didn't know it
is when she got to court. How convenient. How convenient.
Now, who are you going to believe on that? Inspector Steed
Huggins or somebody who is trying to save her own skin? She
knew it, ladies and gentlemen, and she came in here and she's
had months and months to rescript that and she lied to you.
She lied to you. She clearly lied to you.
Let's talk about that, how you know she lied to you. You
know that Janice Reedy said she went to work there in June of
1997 and that she worked there until September of '99. That's
a long period of time. That is a very long period of time.
You know that she held every job there was to hold in that
business. She knew every aspect of that business. She knew
every minute detail of it. But, yet, not when it comes to
anything about child pornography. That's just not credible.
It is just not believable.
She was the customer service representative, which meant
what? That meant she dealt with the complaints made by
customers and the complaints made by webmasters. Complaints
made by customers were from several categories. You had the
people that were griping that, hey, my kid used my credit card
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL V, 863
and bought into this trash. You had those kind of complaints.
You had people complaining that, hey, what is this? This
is illegal. This is criminal. You people ought to be in the
pen. And she admitted those kind of complaints came in but
nobody told her about it. You see, that's just not credible,
not since she held that job.
She answered e-mails when she was a customer service
representative. And then she was the bookkeeper, okay? She
was the bookkeeper, and as the bookkeeper she is sending
checks, she is sending wire transfers, to these foreign
webmasters, okay, for huge amounts of money.
And she's got Defendant's Exhibit No. 1 -- I'm sure we've
got it in those, too, but she's working from the document that
tells you the name of the site. Children Forced To Porn, Child
Rape, you know what I'm saying? No. You don't just hear that
one day and somebody tells you not to worry your pretty little
head about it and so you don't. That's not credible, ladies
and gentlemen. That is just not credible. You can take that
document back there and look at that. It's in evidence.
And you know something else, too. You know that this is a
small business. You heard rattled off the names of the
different people that worked there, and it's a small business.
And as a small business you're in communication with people,
the David Cruzes, all the others. Well, man, if they're in
this business, they're talking about it. They're talking about
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL V, 864
it. But yet she claims she never heard anybody say anything
until right before the raid. I submit to you, ladies and
gentlemen, that is a lie. That is a lie. I'm reminded of the
old saying I was born at night but not last night. She told
Steed Huggins that she knew that you had to go through
Landslide to get to Fling Little Kids. What could that
possibly mean but child pornography. What else could that
mean? Fling Little Kids. This is dirty. I'm sorry that
you've had to hear that kind of stuff, but that's part of this
case. That's what they profited off of. It couldn't mean
anything else. She knew. Her husband said she knew. So who
are you going to believe? Steed Huggins or her?
But you know what, you can look at these e-mails, too.
Here's another thing that's pretty clear that she lied about
talking about Steed Huggins. Steed told you that she told him
that they didn't tend to this business at night in front of the
kid, okay, when they went home. They shielded the child from
it, and only when the child had gone to bed did they tend to
this stuff. Now, she changed that when she got to court,
though. She changed that when she got to court. Why? Because
that means she knew.
Why are you hiding it from the kid unless you know it's
filthy, okay? And so she changes that when she gets to court
and says, oh, no, no, no. I was -- you know, we did it
afterward because we had family time. Again, she has
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL V, 865
rescripted this with months to think about it. But what did
she say when she was just taken by surprise on September the
8th? She said those two things, and those clearly directly
bear on her mental state of what she knew and what she didn't
know.
But you don't have to take Inspector Huggins' word for it,
either. You can look at the e-mails, and there's a bunch of
them. But I really want to call your attention, and it's hard
to go through them all, but I want to call your attention to
JR-A-2, JR-A-l. Let me take that one for instance, first.
This is the one that David Cruz, the site manager, writes to
the guy that had kiddyporn.org. And he says, "Your site has
been down for a while. Are you still in business?" And you
start at the bottom of that page and you read that first.
Then the guy responds, "Well, I would like to remind you I
haven't gotten my check," and he complains about not getting
his check.
Well, if you look at that, that was sent to
money@landslide, okay? The old boy that responded sends this
to Janice, and you look at that in connection with JR-A-l,
okay, you look at that in connection with that one. And you
start from the bottom up and you see Janice's reply to that
guy. And what does she say? This is the one where she is
chewing him out due to leading customers to your site under
false pretenses. We do expect to receive more of these
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL V, 866
chargebacks, and it goes on and on. And it also talks about,
you know, you threatened to turn people over to the authorities
and we don't appreciate you doing this and want you to refrain
from this.
Well, what is she chewing him out about, about false
pretenses? The guy sends back a reply, and that's on the top
of JR-A-l, and he says, hey, I had a disclaimer that I didn't
have any child pornography or anything illegal, so don't be
getting on my back. To heck with these people and their own
stupidity. I said in my disclaimer I didn't have any, but his
name is kiddyporn.org. She's chewing him out.
Now, what did she say on the stand? She had to
acknowledge she wrote it because there it is to money@landslide
on January the 5th of '99 -- I mean, June the 5th, '99. Now,
that's way before she claims she knew it right before the raid,
right? Well, she had to acknowledge that she wrote it, but she
even went so far as to say that she -- she would not
acknowledge his reply. You know why? Because he talks about
child pornography. The woman is a liar.
Now, the other e-mail that you should pay attention to is
JR-A-12, and that's the one that is to Houdini, that's her
husband, and it's the Miranda e-mail. And, again, you start at
the bottom of that and it's, "Miranda, our site department has
attempted to contact you several times about your lack of
content." And it goes on and on. "It will not be tolerated.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL V, 867
You must have content," and it says what? "We will monitor
your sites." What did they get up here in opening statement
and tell you? Oh, they're just an adult verification service.
They don't monitor sites. "We will monitor your sites, " he
says.
Now, that's Thomas Reedy's e-mail, but what's important
about that? If you look at JR-A-12 and you look up there it
says to Houdini. CC, cc: money@landslide. This was also
found on her computer. She knew it. And what did old Miranda
say whenever he.got chewed out for his "lack of content"?
Well, he says -- and he sends it to Houdini, and this is cc'd
to money@landslide. This is June the 5th of '99. Miranda says
"I've been busy with Interpol here, okay? Someone reported me
for the child pornography sites." This is on her computer,
folks. "Somebody reported me for the child pornography sites.
I'm going to have to clean these sites up."
You know, she looked you square in the eye and she lied to
you. And I submit to you, ladies and gentlemen, that Janice
Reedy has made a couple of mistakes before, okay, with her
marriages. She made two bad decisions. She marries again and
she didn't do any better the third time. She married him,
okay? And here she is, third time is your charm, she hasn't
done much better, but you know what? Her life style had
significantly improved. You saw the pictures of that house.
You saw those Mercedes Benz. They were living good, and I
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submit to you that she was willing to lay her head down next to
this man every night and stay in this environment for the
money. Maybe that's why she's called money@landslide.
But, you know, you've got some other evidence here that
bears directly on their knowledge and that's the names of the
sites themselves. There's no way you can look at Fling Little
Kids and you claim you didn't know what it was about. There's
no way you can look at Children Forced To Porn and not know
what that's about. There's no way that you can hear about a
web site called Child Rape and not know what that is about. So
the names, in and of themselves, okay, directly, directly, tell
these people this is child pornography.
I submit to you that these people are not just merely an
AVS, okay, that allows access to adult content. That's the
First Amendment stuff. The First Amendment doesn't protect
pedophiles that are interested in looking at child pornography.
These people were much, much, more than that. They're the
middle man. She keeps track of the money and Thomas Reedy is
the idea guy, okay? He's the one that developed AVS. He's the
one that developed KeyZ. He's the one that developed ClicZ.
He's the one that developed Pussies4u for the dissatisfied
customer rather than give them their money back, switch them
over. And he's the one that developed the adult classifieds.
These people were feeding pedophiles. They weren't just
an AVS, they were much, much more than that. You owe it to
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yourself to please take the classifieds back there and look at
the classifieds. It is TR-B-9. And you know what you will not
see? You will not see one ad where somebody is selling hot
dogs. But I'll tell you what you will see. I'll run through
them. There's too many for me. I don't have time to sit here.
Here you go. This is -- Remember, the classifieds were on the
home computer and the classifieds were at the business. Here's
one that says: I would like to have a sexual relationship with
eight to twelve year old girl.
Here's one that says: Parents of four children, girls,
age 10, 11, 13, and son 8 seeking other families with kids for
sexual encounters.
Here's one: Experienced older male seeks correspondence
with pedo moms wanting family fun with her children. Would
love to meet and help in teaching if in northwest Georgia area.
Here's one: Looking for moms with young daughters.
Looking for young boys -- Well, I'm not going to even read
that one it's so disgusting.
Here's one: Hi surfers, I would like to receive pics of
girls 8 to 12 fucking and/or sucking. Fair trade is not more
than reasonable.
Here's one: Older man, gentle and kind wanting to chat
with or join in family fun. Can be very helpful in training
children.
How about: I trade baby sex pics only one year old. I
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have 985 pics of this to trade. Send me five, and I'll send
you ten. Only this stuff. If you send in other shit you will
receive nothing. Honest and ultrapervert trader.
Looking for hard core pics, girls only 9 to 13 will trade
one for one.
Wanted. Wanted to buy any preteen XXX fuck videos. I
will trade hardcore child porn pictures from the internet and
mpgs for only homemade preteen child porn pictures.
Needed, hardcore boy, five to 12 with men, good fuck,
suck, or facial pics. Have none. Only girls, baby to 13.
Take it back there. These people weren't just an AVS.
They were feeding pedophiles. They were profiting from it.
They were transporting child pornography, and they very well
knew it. We ask you to find them guilty, all of them, Janice
Reedy, Thomas Reedy, and the company, because if, by the way,
if they knew it, the company knew it. They are the company, of
every count in that indictment because they are guilty of every
count in that indictment.
THE COURT: Mr. Ball,
MR. BALL: Yes, Your Honor. May it please the Court. Mr.
Heiskell, members of the prosecution team, ladies and
gentlemen. I too want to thank you for the time and attention
you've devoted to this case. It's been difficult, and I want
to talk about that first.
I have a fear, I have a fear, that when you see pictures
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as disgusting as the photographs that you have seen or hear ads
as disgusting as the ones that Ms. Moore just read off, that
this Court's charge suddenly is disregarded. Because this is
the law. It comes from the Judge, and it's not time to set up
a new set of rules. We write the law down for our citizens so
that they can know what is and is not proper. And if you need
some help, you can go talk to a lawyer about the law.
And you have Defendant's Exhibit No. 7 and I'll get to
that again in a moment, where Mr. Reedy and others with
Landslide consulted with legal counsel and they reviewed the
web site. They reviewed what they were doing.
I want to talk real quickly about freedom. This nation
was founded on freedom, and I don't mean the freedom to take
pictures like this and abuse children like we've seen. But we
start out with a presumption of freedom in what we do. And we
don't impose on citizens an obligation, a requirement, to
censor other people. We simply don't do that.
Let's talk about this charge. It's the law. There are
two counts in this charge, Count 1 and Count 45, I believe,
that are conspiracy counts. And what is a conspiracy? In
simple terms it's an agreement. And Ms. Moore told you, well,
how do we know there was an agreement? Well, there was money.
Was that money tied to the content? It wasn't tied to the
content. It was just tied to the adult verification KeyZ
system. When you say agreement, agreement to do what? The law
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requires the agreement to engage in the unlawful activity.
You have some information from the government's own
evidence about what is the agreement here. It's not an
agreement you have to infer. It's an agreement in writing.
It's an agreement the defendants put in writing to people who
wanted to subscribe and use their service, and to people who
wanted to run web sites through their service. What are they?
They're SN-A-2.8, SN-A-2.10.
SN-A-2.8, and, again, you can take these back with you,
KeyZ usage agreement: One, any services provided to the
subscriber by provider, may only be used for lawful purposes.
Transmission or storage of any information, data, or material
in violation of any subscriber country, U.S. federal, state,
local community, regulation or law is prohibited. This
includes, but is not limited to, material protected by
copyright, trade secret, threatening material or obscene
material, or any other statute.
And the paragraph ten of that agreement: This agreement
is the sole agreement between the subscriber and provider with
respect to the subject matter hereof. Subscriber has read this
agreement and fully understands the terms thereof. This
agreement supersedes all prior agreements and understandings,
whether oral or written.
Okay. That's with the viewer, the one that wants to go
look at the dirty pictures. That's the agreement that they are
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required to enter into. That's the agreement that Landslide
sent up. That's the agreement that the Reedys sent out.
SN-A-2.10, what does it tell you? And you remember when
the government was putting these exhibits up there, there was a
third page missing from SN-A-2.10, wasn't it? And what was
that? The agreement. But it's in evidence. That third page
is in evidence but it wasn't displayed to you. We had to get
that, and you can consider that.
That agreement -- Here's the legal agreement between us,
KeyZ usage agreement. Any services provided to the subscriber
by provider may only be used for lawful purposes. Transmission
or storage of any information data or material in violation of
any subscriber country -- It's the same language as before, and
there's a paragraph ten that says this is the sole agreement.
The agreements that were entered into in this case by the
defendants, Thomas Reedy and Landslide, was that these people
were expected to comply with the law. Now, were they obligated
to police these folks? The law requires the government to
prove that they transported material or caused to be
transported material.
Now, let's talk about the words "cause to be transported
material" for a minute. Did they cause to be transported this
illegal material? Well, you know from the evidence that those
illegal images never passed through Landslide's system. In
fact, the government's own evidence, you recall those hops,
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those maps, that routed the traffic of the material? You
recall that, and it's got like a world map at the bottom. And
with the exception of one -- I think it's one, where Detective
Nelson wanted to see when he was at the Landslide page, what
that route was, it picks up Landslide. It gives you an IP
address, Landslide. When he's looking at their home page, it's
on there. So we know on that communication, he's
communicating, things are being transported between Detective
Nelson and Landslide.
But when we look at the pictures that are being
transported from their own evidence, from each one of those
maps, not one hop has the word "Landslide." It goes through a
whole lot of people, but they aren't transported. And the
graphic that we showed you at that point, Landslide is out of
the loop. There's no transportation of anything.
Well, did they cause it to be transported? Well, the
government wants to say, well, but for Landslide, you don't get
the pictures. Well, but for the bank you don't get the
pictures. But for Network Solutions you don't get the
pictures. But for America Online you don't get the pictures.
But for Bell Atlantic in Reston, Virginia, you don't get the
pictures, the people that have the pictures on their server.
Do we indict all of them?
And let's talk a minute about the names. Does Network
Solutions know what these names are that they register? Are
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they responsible? Do we bring them down here and indict them?
This is a slippery slope, folks. You learned a lot about the
computer business and e-commerce and the internet. And I
submit to you that Mr. Reedy, Landslide, Janice Reedy did not
transport anything or cause to be transported anything.
Well, then, how do we get to them? Well, did they aid and
abet, because as you know, as you were told at the beginning
and you were told today and it's in the Court's instructions, a
person can be guilty if they aid and abet someone to do
something, can't they? We all know the classic example of the
bank robber. I'm the wheel man. I wait out in the car. I'm
going to split the money, but I don't go in the bank and point
a gun at any tellers. I don't do anything, but I'm responsible
when I know that's what the person is doing. I took them there
with the intent that the crime be committed, don't you see?
So what does the Court tell you about aiding and abetting?
It's on page 13 of the Court's charge and continues on to page
14. It talks about how that works. And on the top of page 14
it says before any defendant may be held criminally responsible
for the acts of others, Boris Greenberg, the Indonesians, the
other people, the people that should be right here, it is
necessary that the defendant deliberately associate himself in
some way with the crime and participate in it -- this is the
key part -- with the intent to bring about the crime. Okay?
Were the Reedys acting with intent to bring about a crime?
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Let's talk about that for a minute. What do we know about
intent from the evidence? What's their intent? None of the
Landslide promotional materials talks about child pornography.
When people -- Are they in the child porno business? When
Mr. Reedy sets up a web site, pornographic as it might have
been, Pussies4u, what's on there? Child porn? If it's so
profitable, if it's his business, it's not on there, by their
own witnesses. It's pictures of adults engaged in sexual
activity. In fact, when somebody complains about content or
they're dissatisfied with a site, does he direct them to a
child porno site? No. He says why don't you go to this site.
He keeps trying to steer them to that site. He's not in the
child pornography business. That's not his intent.
Their intent was to keep children out of the adult
internet e-commerce business and make money while doing so.
And as far as I know it's not against the law in this country.
In fact, it's an encouraged activity to try to be successful
and earn a living. The government hasn't pointed any law that
requires these individuals to go out and police the internet.
A forensic search. You heard testimony about a forensic
search of all of these computers. I mean, they swooped in
there. I think two agents per defendant and they had a bunch
of forensic people, a bunch of scientists, a bunch of computer
people, and they went in there and nailed all this stuff down
and it was a surprise. There was no time to get rid of
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anything, so they captured the business as it was running right
then. They used AnaDisk I think was a program they talked
about. It can search through those computers and find stuff
that you even tried to erase. Maybe you were surprised to know
if you look at a picture on the internet and you don't want it
and you think you've discarded it, it's still on there,
e-mails, any of that stuff. And with using all of these
sophisticated tools, not one, not one scrap of paper where
Landslide told anybody to put child pornography on any site.
There were e-mails coming in saying child pornography. There
were a bunch of e-mails coming in, but look at the e-mails
going out. Did they ever tell anybody to put child pornography
on any site?
Let me talk a minute about adult classifieds and banners.
The government would have had you believe initially, you know,
we talked about things don't always appear as they seem,
initially seem. If you look at that, you read those ads, she
read them off, that gets you kind of inflamed. It gets you
stirred up, man. That's some bad stuff these people are
talking about. Well, how does that get there?
If you go to the back of that exhibit, it's the last page
on there. The person simply types it in -- and the point about
hot dogs is whatever is on there is in the control of somebody
else. It's not reviewed. It is not reviewed by Tom Reedy or
Landslide, and how do we know that? Just because the system
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doesn't require a review? I can type it in there and, poof,
it's up there. Well, maybe they looked at it later and they
reviewed it. Well, how do we know that? Because you can go
through there and there's at least eight, maybe more ads,
selling or trading passwords to their system, cutting them out
of the money.
It's not to their advantage to do that. That proves they
didn't review it, because they would have stopped that. That
cuts into their money. If they're so interested in money they
wouldn't have people trading AVS or KeyZ passwords and allow
that to go on without collecting the $29.95. You see somebody
puts that ad up there and I get it and I get free passwords and
I can go look at the pictures for free. Well, that's not to
their incentive. And they're not here on trial, there's no
count in the indictment that says if they have adult
classifieds you find them guilty.
But think about what that system was. It's a little
different than what we know if we want to put an ad in a
newspaper. There's some human review or something. We would
be shocked to see such material in the Star-Telegram or some
other local paper.
Banner ads. You've got a Landslide page. There's a
banner that says "Child Porn Click Here." Oh, my gosh. That's
the end of the ball game, isn't it? Well, wait a minute. How
does that work? Where is that banner coming from? Who drew
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that up? And now you know something a little bit about banner
exchange programs. The webmaster, the Lolita World I think is
the one that was associated with. The person running Lolita
World in some foreign country is given coding or something that
allows them to create a banner and dump it and upload it into
the Landslide system. There's no human review. They can
change it. The images on the internet can change at a moment's
notice.
You heard from Catrina Day, an unusual individual,
certainly, but we submit that you needed to know something
about that end of it, what a webmaster does. What did she tell
you? "I'm responsible. I control the content. I'm
responsible. I can change it." That's what she told you.
Well, if we're not going to convict them of having banners
and classifieds, which aren't charges in the indictment, let's
convict them because they're rich or because they're living
high on the hog. Let's do it for that reason. That's not in
the instructions here. And whether they're rich, their home
was foreclosed on. There's evidence about that. I submit you
understand what that means. Let's convict them because the
pictures are bad, and they're the only ones here so we just
feel bad having seen this. Okay, tag, you're it. Let's do it
for that reason.
Or let's convict them because they're in the dirty picture
business. Well, we know that there are some things that are
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just offensive to a majority of us that the law allows that
just says you've got to tolerate it so we can have a wide open
bunch of freedoms. Certainly not child pornography, but let's
just convict them because, well, they were in the dirty picture
business of the adult business.
If you think -- There's some things in the instructions
about the burden of proof. It's a high one. It's the highest
one we have. You know, Judge Means in his introductory voir
dire comments told you a lot of times people leave a courtroom
to go deliberate a verdict and they, you know, say it looks
kind of like maybe they did this or they might be guilty or
they're probably guilty or something like that, and, you know,
probably guilty. But that's not enough.
THE COURT: You have five minutes remaining.
MR. BALL: Thank you.
Because if it's probably guilty that's not guilty as a
verdict. It has to be beyond a reasonable doubt, each and
every element. And look at the words -- Be sure you take this
with you and understand it. I implore you, before you sign
your foreperson's name to all of the verdicts, make sure when
you leave this courthouse that we understood what the law was
and we followed it. And you've not got to answer to anyone if
you do that.
Let's talk real quickly about the FBI agents. You know, if
I'm robbing a bank and there's an FBI agent standing there
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talking to me who said who planned this and so forth. And I
say, well, this fellow living over in Russia. Is he going to
just walk away and leave? I think you can draw a couple of
conclusions -- or a conclusion from the contact with Donna
Kibbie in Pennsylvania, Special Agent Donna Kibbie; Special
Agent Frank Super. Well, they want to say he's green. He's
just out of the academy at Quantico or whatever. He was an
officer in the United States Marine Corps. He didn't suddenly
get a case of dummies here. He gets a complaint about child
pornography, and what does he do? Now, see, this investigation
doesn't know these contacts are going on, that this is messing
things up a little bit. And he says, hey, yeah, I'll cooperate
with you. And that was the standard response to law
enforcement from this company and the Reedys. We'll cooperate.
What do you need to know. Yeah, Boris Greenberg, Russia. Hey,
don't have any jurisdiction. Thank you, bye.
Did he say, hey, wait a minute. What you're doing is
wrong? And if the FBI agents left Mr. Reedy alone, was he
supposed to conclude that he's doing something wrong? What was
he supposed to think? I've talked to two. I think I'm doing
right. I'm verifying adult status. What those people put up
on those sites, somebody needs to go after them.
What you would like to do, ladies and gentlemen -- We have
the wrong people here. What you would like to do is go back
there and say R.W. Kusuma, guilty; Hanny Ingannata, guilty;
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Boris Greenberg, guilty. Those are the people responsible and
the disgusting man in England that abused his own children who
has been apparently found guilty.
But you can't do that. The only thing you can do -- You
can't hold those people responsible here. But you can say
Thomas Reedy, maybe we don't like you, we don't like your
business, but not guilty. The government hasn't proven it.
Janice Reedy, not guilty. The government hasn't proven it.
Landslide, not guilty. The government hasn't proven it. If
you follow the law and review the evidence -- and,
incidentally, look at the -- before I forget it, the attorney
bills. There are 10-, 15-, $20,000 worth of attorney bills.
Look at what the attorney is doing. It's Defendant's Exhibit
No. 7. It itemizes what they're doing. And consider that,
please, in deciding what their intent was. Thank you for your
attention.
THE COURT: Mr. Heiskell.
MR. HEISKELL: Judge, Your Honor, can I approach for
a second?
THE COURT: Yes.
(Court confers with Mr. Heiskell off the record.)
MR. HEISKELL: Thank you, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may proceed.
MR. HEISKELL: I apologize to the Court and to you.
I had to take a quick bathroom break. I guess sometimes these
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things happen, and one of the reasons is because I'm nervous.
I'm also fearful, as Mr. Ball stated. I'm anxious. I'm
apprehensive, because I represent this woman right here, Janice
Lee, this graduate of Sonora High School, this graduate of the
Hallmark Institute of training school, and this experienced
grocery store clerk and bookkeeper. And it's not surprising to
me that this government prosecutor, skilled that she is, one of
the best we have, spent a lot of time talking about her,
because you see, folks, when you boil it down to Janice Lee
Reedy it really is a question of what did she know, when did
she know it, and what did she do to promote what she knew.
There's an old saying that innocence has a lot of courage
and faith in the goodness of mankind, and Janice Lee Reedy got
on that witness stand yesterday, didn't shrink from anything,
just as she didn't shrink from Agent Huggins, when he came out
after the government raid and told you her story. She told you
what happened.
The Court talked about credibility and believability at
the beginning of his instructions, and I want to spend a few
moments talking about that as well, because the government has
called her a boldfaced liar. Well, once you throw out those
allegations, you've got to prove it.
This woman got up there and she didn't go to school to
learn how to be a good witness. She didn't take any
instructions at a seminar on how to testify in an articulate
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
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manner. She hadn't been trained in law enforcement techniques
on testifying or appearing in front of a jury. She told you in
her own words about what happened. And, you know, that courage
to put the -- to put that faith in mankind to the good is
something I admire her for, because not only did she have to
face you and this Court, she had to face this skilled
government prosecutor.
And that's another fear, that, you know, because Ms. Moore
is so good that maybe you'll listen to her words and let's go
along with her because we like her. But we're not here to
grade her paper. We're here to determine whether or not
they've built that strong bridge of evidence to walk her across
and label her a convicted child pornographer.
Have they proven it? Well, Ms. Moore, as I stated, spent
a lot of time talking about it as far as what we can infer from
certain things. For instance, the name of the sites. For
instance, some e-mails plucked from thousands, I guess, of
e-mails from that company picking out one or maybe two and
saying, well, if you look at here and people saying we don't
have child pornography, maybe that should give her knowledge
that there is child pornography.
But see, it works a little different than that. What is
her credibility and what is her believability, because not only
does the government have a chance to put its case on in chief,
they have a chance to rebut. And what did the government
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prosecutor tell Janice Lee on the stand yesterday? "You know,
Janice Lee, we've got David Cruz out here. You know that,
don't you?" And she said, "Yeah, I saw him."
hey've got David Cruz out here. Call David Cruz. Call
Tom Hughes. Call Jon Reedy. Call Bill Breitbarth. And
remember Dane Ritcheson, the gentleman in the second row, the
bearded gentleman, the government's expert. Now, he works for
the government, and obviously he's going to try to do what he
can to sway his testimony that way. That's what we expect him
to do. You should as well. I don't blame him for that. But
do you remember when I asked him on cross-examination about the
interview with David Cruz, and I specifically referred to a
memo of October 30th at 1:00 o'clock or 1:10 p.m. a month ago,
less than a month ago, at the U.S. Attorney's Office. "You
talked to David Cruz." "Yes, sir." "And you asked David Cruz
whether Janice Lee Reedy knew about child porn images, and he
told you that she didn't." "Yeah, I think you're right about
that."
That's the evidence. David Cruz, he's out here somewhere.
Call him to prove otherwise. Well, you could pick out, as you
say, the e-mails. JR-1 and 2 and JR-12, but if you look at
those e-mails closely, as I said, plucked from how many
hundreds of thousands of e-mails to try to show Janice Lee knew
that child porn was being promoted on the internet through AVS
or KeyZ and that she actively participated in that.
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And you look at the content of it. Janice Lee is
concerned with the books, the numbers, the crunching of
numbers, the financial aspect of it. She told you in Defense
Exhibit No. 2, when she looked at that particular webmaster,
Maksim, the last name starting with a K. I don't even want to
try to pronounce it right now. Next to his name does not
mention Kiddy Porn, but the KDP company, or some words to that
effect. I don't recall right now. Nothing about it.
But who typed in "Kiddy Porn"? David Cruz. You know, you
want to sometimes ask, and I've been asking this question for
months: Why Janice Lee? Tom Hughes was there from day one.
Jon Reedy, the VP management team, day one. Bill Breitbarth,
the CPA, Janice's supervisor, her supervisor. But suddenly it
dawned on me after a little while of thinking about it, and it
all gets back to money. The forfeiture, the money. Well, if
we get the husband and wife we get the house, we get the cars,
we get the money.
That's what this is about. This case is worked
backwards, folks. Once you've labeled Janice Lee in this, it's
worked backwards. It reminds me of a story of a man who was
out looking for his wallet that he had lost one night. And
he's under a street light and he's looking for the wallet and a
stranger comes up and says, "Fellow, what are you doing?" He
says, "I'm looking for my wallet." "Where is it?" "Well, I
think I lost it about a block away." He said, "You lost it a
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
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block away? Well, why are you looking here?" He said,
"Because the light is better."
The light is better. It's convenient. It's easy.
Because you wonder if Tom Hughes, the programmer, he in fact
programmed the chargebacks and the refunds, the financial
documents. Who programmed it? Thomas Hughes. Who was the
technical person for the images on the server where these
things are held as they come through there? Thomas Hughes.
Who is writing "Kiddy Porn" to webmasters? David Cruz. Who is
her supervisor? Bill Breitbarth.
Well, no, wait a minute. That's where the light is
better. We can get this money. Let's go get Janice Lee.
Yeah, we can ask her some questions up here like the prosecutor
did, because she is, as I stated, very good at what she does.
And sometimes some of these questions, remember, "Janice you
want your cake and eat it, too." That's kind of like a
two-headed question. That's like when did your husband stop
beating you? Really, a topic she knows all too well. And
there's no fair answer because it's an unfair question.
And that's what she voluntarily got up and put herself
through to tell you that, no, she didn't know. She didn't
know. Yes -- You know what? When we talk about this knowledge
aspect, that they have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. And
that reasonable doubt standard is the fact they've got to
produce such convincing evidence that you are willing to rely,
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and not just rely on it, but act on it without hesitation as
you would in the most important of your own affairs. And part
of that is knowledge. It can't be, well, maybe, kind of, sort
of, I suspect, maybe.
But they've got to prove knowledge and they've got to
prove that she actively promoted it, because the Court will
tell you on page 7 of the charge at the bottom paragraph about
mere presence. And a person who has no knowledge of a
conspiracy but who may happen to act in a way which somehow
advances the purpose of the conspiracy does not thereby become
a conspirator. The Court tells you that.
And that mere presence at the scene of an event, the mere
fact persons may have associated with each other and may have
assembled together and talked, as the government told you about
certain things in a small business or whatever, that doesn't
show anything about a conspiracy, that she knew anything about
it. They've got to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, so you
won't have to hesitate and you can rely on it and you can act
on it because it's been so convincing, so believable, so
persuasive and you can look and you can sign those verdict
forms and label her a convicted child pornographer or a
convicted criminal, one of the most heinous crimes on our
books.
Well, when you charge people with that, folks, you better
bring your ammunition and you better bring it strong and not
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inferences and picking out maybe one or two e-mails from
hundreds or thousands and say, "Look here. She knows."
And then say, well, because of the name of the site, and
she was told by Amy. She was told by Thomas. She saw the
business grow. Other people come in there who saw the names.
Well, why are you going to pick on Janice Lee? Well, she's the
wife. She handles the money, and they want the money. They
seized it. They want the forfeiture. Pure and simple. Pure
and simple.
Well, you know, our courtroom is kind of like a cathedral
where we dispense justice, and we don't look at this, well,
what can the government do with certain monies seized. You
look at justice and you look a little deeper and past the
cosmetics and past whatever other intent may lie in the hearts
of prosecutors, because they are the most powerful people that
we have in our society just about, once they get a hold of you.
It's hard to let go when you start working a case. Let's
get them. Let's get her. Well, if you've got David Cruz, if
you've got Thomas Hughes, if you got Bill Breitbarth, Carol
Clark, Jessica Baldwin, bring them up here to show that Janice
Lee knew anything about it other than what she told you.
And, yes, Steed Huggins told you, "I asked her about the
web site, and she acknowledged it." But did Steed Huggins say
anything at all on this witness stand about child pornography
topic with Janice Lee Reedy? No. None. But when he talked to
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her husband a couple of weeks later, well, did Janice Lee know?
And he said yeah. And because why? Because she had come to
him about a month or two before and asked him. He said, "Look,
honey, I've taken care of that. I've talked to the FBI. Don't
worry about it. I'm taking care of it."
Yeah, that was her knowledge. And she, believing and
trusting and loving this man, took his word for it and went
about her business. And sat there after the government raid
and told them about these names that she was told didn't mean
anything, Janice, because she started out in the adult porn and
she would have you believe she's working all of these
capacities, customer service. Well, customer service was for
AVS. KeyZ wasn't even in the picture. Remember that? So no
child porn in the picture when she was in customer service.
The only thing in the picture was the adult sites, the legal
sites.
And when she went on doing these things, yes, you can call
her naive, you can call her foolish, you can call her whatever
you want to call her, but, please, just because they call her a
criminal, don't you call her a criminal until you are convinced
whereby you can rely and act on it without hesitation that she,
in fact, knew anything about this conspiracy.
You know, the job any attorney has in the criminal arena
and in the court is a tough one. And especially when you look
at how our society is framed, because, you know, this country
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was built upon people who immigrated here and escaped here from
other countries where if the king said it, you must have done
it. Well, the burden of proof is exactly the opposite. You're
proven or you're assumed guilty.
But, folks, that's why we have you good people here, to
act as a buffer, as a shield. Just because the king says it,
the government, doesn't necessarily mean it's true, and just
because you throw up some horrible images, get emotions worked
up and inflame the passions of people, which in many respects
you have to do. But we have to look past that and see, well,
look at the law to apply to those facts and look to see if in
fact they have proven her guilty beyond any and all reasonable
doubt.
And so, ladies and gentlemen, I'm asking you to send
Janice Lee to wherever David Cruz is. I'm asking you to send
Janice Lee to wherever Thomas Hughes is. I'm asking you to
send Janice Lee to wherever Bill Breitbarth is, to wherever Jon
Reedy is. I'm asking you to send Janice Lee back to her family
in Sonora. I'm asking you to send Janice Lee back to Alicia.
Thank you.
THE COURT: You have 13 minutes remaining,
Ms. Moore.
MS. MOORE: Thank you, Your Honor. One thing both of
these attorneys said that I agree with and the evidence
supports, is there is a whole lot of other guilty people out
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there, other than these people. That's right. David Cruz is
guilty. Every employee at that business is guilty. Those
webmasters, every single one of them are guilty.
But why do they want you to go out and focus on all those
other people? So you won't be focusing on them. That's why.
It's an old diversion tactic. It's a rabbit trail. Send the
jury running down to see what about David Cruz, send them
running to see what about some webmaster, because as long as
you're doing that then you're not focusing on them.
Ladies and gentlemen, you're not here to decide whether
those other people are guilty. Of course they're guilty.
You're here to focus your attention on these people and whether
or not we have met the elements, we have proven the elements,
that are outlined for you in the Court's charge. It is just
really that simple.
So don't go down any rabbit trails, don't go down any
rabbit trails. And they want to talk about David Cruz sitting
outside. I believe David Cruz was sitting outside at the
request of Mr. Heiskell.
MR. HEISKELL: Your Honor, excuse me. David Cruz was
subpoenaed by the government in this case.
THE COURT: Well, either way it's outside the record.
MS. MOORE: It is.
THE COURT: Please disregard the comment just made, and
let's move on.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
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MS. MOORE: Base your decision on the evidence that
you got in this case. Don't speculate these people into a not
guilty.
And let's get something else clear. We're not here asking
you to find these people guilty just because there's been some
bad pictures. We're asking you to find these people guilty
because they are guilty, because we have proven the elements of
this case, not to just show you bad pictures, make you angry,
and ask you to retaliate. No. Go through those elements and
look to see if we've proven them, and if we have convict the
guilty. That's what this is about.
And when you're doing that -- and they've submitted some
stuff here, the attorney records, the billing records, of some
law firm. What does that have to do with this? They're over
there asking this lawyer to help them on whether or not they're
doing what they need to do on the COPA, Child Online Protection
Act. Nobody here has accused them of violating COPA, Child
Online Protection Act. We've accused them of violating Article
2252 of the United States Code, Title 18. 2252A. They may not
have violated COPA, but they sure violated the criminal
statutes, and that's what this case is about, so don't go down
that rabbit trail on did they violate that? They've been
charged with violating the criminal law, not some other
statute. So keep -- don't go down a rabbit trail. That's
pretty clever.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
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Let's talk about something Mr. Ball brought up. He said,
oh, what evidence is there of an agreement. Look at this
exhibit, the KeyZ use agreement. Look at that. Don't you know
that somebody as clever as Thomas Reedy who can develop AVS,
develop KeyZ, develop ClicZ, develop adult classifieds,
somebody that clever, by the way, who calls himself "Houdini,"
you really ought to consider that. Houdini, somebody who wants
to now wiggle his way out of responsibility. Let's see if I
can pull this one off and avoid the penitentiary, Houdini.
Somebody that clever is able to go out and have some document
and puts some cover-your-behind-language in it. Of course you
can put, hey, not responsible, okay. Cover-your-behind kind of
language. Hey, don't be putting any illegal content on that.
Hey, I'm covered. I put that disclaimer on my stuff so I'm
covered.
Excuse me. You want to give me your car and I'll say I'm
not responsible for any damage done to it and then I take it
out and strip it and sell it for parts and I'm not guilty of
theft just because I said if you give me your car to go wash it
I'm not responsible for any damage made. That's Houdini,
putting some clever language in there, but he can't avoid the
responsibility. He can't wiggle out of this one because it
just doesn't work that way because you've gone behind that and
you've seen the evidence in this case.
Mr. Ball tried to present to you a technical argument
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about the transportation. Oh, once it went from the webmaster
to the user, Landslide was out of the loop therefore they
didn't transport. A technical, very technical argument, to get
you to walk these people. I submit to you that aiding and
betting is broader than that. You just think about this. Bob
wants to rob a bank. Terri, give me a ride up to the bank so I
can rob it. Sure. You going to give me a cut of that money?
Yeah. Whatever I get Terri, you take 40. I'll keep 60, he
says. So I take him up to the bank. I say, "I'll drop you off
but I'm going on and I'll meet up with you." So I drop him off
at the bank so he can rob it and then he walks on up to
wherever it is and we later meet up and he gives me my cut.
Just because I didn't drive him away from the bank does not
mean I didn't aid and abet, did it?
The aiding and abetting that they did covers the whole
thing, so don't bite into some little technical defense there
designed to walk these people out of here and Houdini avoid and
wiggle out of responsibility, because that's not the way this
works.
You know, they got up here in their opening statements and
they got up here in their voir dire and talked about, oh,
they're just the ticket taker at a movie house. Well, you
know, the ticket taker may not know what movie is on. We've
proven to you that these people know. These people know what
is going on here. The banners, the banners, you know, that's
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
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not some banner swap thing. That banner would not be residing,
the "Child Porn Click Here" banner would not be residing on the
server at Landslide's business unless it was his banner. Okay?
You know what? You know what their real role is? You've
heard a lot of bad stuff in here. I'm just going to go ahead
and say this. It's from my own mouth, bad enough, don't have
to quote anybody. They're not like the ticket taker at a
movie. They're like the madam in a whorehouse. That's what
they are. You can't get in and see the girls unless you go to
the madam. You pay the madam and then you go on and do your
ugly business, okay, whatever. They're the madam in the
whorehouse, and now what they're trying to claim is, oh, I
didn't know what was going on behind those closed doors.
Again, born at night but not last night, ladies and
gentlemen. You can take your common sense with you to the jury
room. You can take your life experiences to the jury room.
You can evaluate the credibility and the believability based
upon your common sense and your life's experience. And when
you do, I think you will find these people guilty, not because
you've been inflamed with some bad pictures, but because they
were guilty of transportation and distribution and promotion of
child pornography.
The Court's charge makes it clear to you at the bottom of
page 15 what your job is. It tells you to seek the truth from
the evidence, and that's your job. We've done our jobs. Your
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job is to seek the truth from the evidence, and when you do, do
not forget what this case is about.
Would you put up SG-l.
This case is about people that steal the innocence of
those children and debase them and degrade them and then to
feed off of it. That's what this case is about.
THE COURT: The case is now in your hands. We will
ask you to keep us apprised of any breaks that you may take,
especially when they are a long break like for lunch so that we
can adjust our schedule to yours.
Mr. Bowen will have a copy -- or have the only copy of the
verdict form. I'll hand it to him in just a second. He'll
hand it to you, and it will reside in the custody of your
presiding juror. Do any of you have any questions?
(No response.)
THE COURT: Now, the alternates, Mr. Mannella,
Ms. Sherman, and Ms. Cook, please remain behind. We will have
some special instructions for you in just a moment.
All right. Since there are no questions, you are to
retire now at this time to begin your deliberations.
(Jury out, 11:34 a.m.)
THE COURT: If the alternates will please step
forward and talk to Ms. Smalling. Here's the way this works.
Were a juror to become ill or should there be an accident or
something that would take them out of deliberations, we would
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call, in order, we would call you to come serve. Deliberations
would have to begin again once you went into the jury room, but
at least we would not have to declare a mistrial or proceed
with 11.
So if each of you will give Ms. Smalling where we can find
you during the day, we'll let you go on about your business
under the same instructions that you not discuss the case with
anyone and avoid all publicity about it. Just go on about your
business and be subject to call on short notice. And we will
do that if we must. And if you want to be notified once the
jury has reached a verdict without you being there, we will be
glad to do that so that you can come in to hear the verdict, or
we'll be glad to just tell you of it if you want to know.
So, this is Ms. Smalling. If you'll just get with her now
and she'll take your juror badges and do all other things
necessary. Thank you.
Wait a minute. If you have some things in the jury room,
do you? Why don't you go ahead and get those now and then come
back and - -
THE COURT COORDINATOR: I'll go up there.
THE COURT: Okay. She'll meet you around there,
then. You'll go on back this way.
(Alternates leave courtroom.)
THE COURT: Is there any matter we need to take up at
this point from the attorneys?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
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MS. MOORE: Judge I don't think so.
THE COURT: Mr. Ball? Mr. Heiskell?
MR. BALL: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: We'll be in recess, then, until further
call. Have you produced a witness -- I mean, an exhibit list?
MR. BALL: We're working on that right now.
MS. MOORE: That's what they're checking on, and
Diane is here on the other matter in the event we get to that.
THE COURT: Okay. All right. Thank you.
Why don't we plan to get together about 1:30 to discuss
the forfeiture question, 1:30 for the forfeiture question.
We'll have a charge ready if necessary.
(Court in recess, 11:40 a.m.)
(Lunch break, 12:00 p.m. until 1:00 p.m.)
(Jury note, 5:37 p.m.)
(On record, no jury, 6:03 p.m.:)
THE COURT: We have a note from the jury that I have
provided a copy to the parties and also a proposed answer. Is
there objection to the answer?
MS. MOORE: Not from the government, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Objection to the answer?
MR. BALL: Not from Defendant Thomas Reedy or
Landslide, Incorporated.
MR. HEISKELL: Not from Janice Reedy.
THE COURT: For the interest of those who may be in
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court and haven't seen it, the note from the jury says we need
to know the clarification of the following: Page 9, that the
defendant under consideration knowingly transported, it's
underlined, or shipped or caused to be transported or shipped
in. . . Is knowingly -- The question is: Is knowingly implied
before shipped or caused to be transported?
And the answer is: In response to your note you are
instructed that the instruction means any of the following:
One, knowingly transported; or, two, knowingly shipped; or,
three, knowingly caused to be transported or shipped.
So that will be taken to the jury immediately.
For those who have an interest, I'm not going to keep this
going terribly late. They can come back Monday morning to
deliberate. We're all tired, and I imagine they are, too. And
I think a clear head can deliberate a lot better than forcing
them to keep on deliberating. So after they've gotten that
note, I don't know where they are. I'm not supposed to know
where they are. But if they are -- We'll wait a while and see
if that makes a difference in their being able to proceed
apace. And if we don't hear from them before very long, I'll
send them home and we'll come back on Monday.
Any questions?
(No response.)
THE COURT: Okay. We'll be in recess until further
call.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL V, 901
(Court in recess, 6:05 p.m.)
(Jury note, 6:28 p.m.)
(On record, no jury, 7:10 p.m.:)
THE COURT: We have a second note. I have given a
copy to the parties and a proposed answer. Is there objection?
MS. MOORE: Not from the government, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Your Honor, we would object --
THE COURT: Y'all can be seated back there.
MR. BALL: We would object to the proposed answer.
THE COURT: The one speaking to the Court may not be
seated.
(Laughter.)
MR. BALL: May I rise, Judge?
We would object to the proposed answer, "No, the meaning
of 'cause' is 'to bring about.'" We submit the question is not
acceptable of an answer.
THE COURT: Overruled. It will be submitted as
indicated, and has been.
MR. HEISKELL: And we join in that objection,
Ms. Reedy. Thank you.
THE COURT: We'll be in recess until further call.
(Court in recess, 7:11 p.m.)
(Verdict, 7:20 p.m.)
(On record, jury in, 7:30 p.m.)
THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, have
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you reached a verdict?
JUROR RIPPEE: Yes, Your Honor, we have.
THE COURT: Mr. Rippee, would you please hand the verdict
form to Mr. Bowen.
The verdict of the jury is as follows: As to Landslide,
Incorporated, guilty on all counts. As to Thomas Reedy, guilty
on all counts.
And to Janice Reedy, not guilty on Count 88 of the
indictment -- 89 of the indictment. Guilty on all other
counts.
Is this the verdict of the jury?
JUROR RIPPEE: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: So say you all?
THE JURY: Yes.
THE COURT: All right. We appreciate your service.
You have done what we asked you to do and we appreciate it.
You will have no further obligation to serve on this month.
The month is over.
It is my practice to visit with juries at the conclusion
of their service to help bring closure to their experience, to
allow them to ask questions of me, and me to ask questions of
them as to how we might improve our performance in working with
juries. We've learned a lot over the years about how to better
use our juries and to make their jobs easier. So I will be
coming to the jury room soon.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
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However, the hour is late and you're not required at all
to hang around for me to come visit with you. You're free to
go, and if you go on I will not take umbrage at that
whatsoever. But if you want to wait, I'll be there in a few
moments. Do you have any questions?
(No response.)
THE COURT: Hearing no questions, you're free to go.
Thank you very much.
(Jury out, 7:34 p.m.)
THE COURT: Let's be seated. Mr. Reedy, Ms. Reedy,
and Mr. Reedy as the representative of Landslide, Incorporated,
the presentence report will be prepared by the probation office
to assist me in sentencing. You'll be asked to give
information for that report, and your degree of cooperation
could be a factor in the severity of your sentence. Your
attorneys are ordered to be present at your interviews with
recent familiarity with Sentencing Guideline Section 3E1.1,
Application Note 1(a).
You and your counsel will be provided a copy of the
presentence report well before the sentencing hearing, and
you'll have opportunity to make comments on it and objections
to it.
You'll be sentenced before this Court on a date and time
to be set in the next few days. I will issue a sentencing
scheduling order that will set out the sentencing date and all
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other dates relevant to that date, and important to that date,
that will be set out in that order so that you'll have written
notice of that.
Do you have any questions, sir?
DEFENDANT THOMAS REEDY: No, sir.
THE COURT: Do you have any questions, ma'am?
DEFENDANT JANICE REEDY: No, sir.
THE COURT: Now, do you wish to get together? I
think there's a stipulation or an agreement that was in the
works as to forfeiture.
MS. MOORE: Yes, Your Honor. If we could resolve
that at this point.
MR. BALL: We should be able to resolve it now.
Do you want to execute that now?
MS. MOORE: Yeah.
MR. BALL: Okay.
(Documents signed.)
MR. EDDINS: Your Honor, we received this stipulation
for forfeiture, and the government moves to dismiss the
forfeiture allegations in this indictment.
THE COURT: Granted. Any other matter we need to
take up other than custody?
MS. MOORE: Yes, Your Honor. I would move the Court
to revoke the pretrial conditions of release as to Thomas Reedy
and take him into custody.
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THE COURT: Granted.
Ms. Reedy, you'll remain free on bond. All the previous
conditions are still in effect. Should you not abide by any of
those terms, you would also be brought into custody.
The trial having concluded in this case, we are adjourned.
(Proceedings concluded, 7:39 p.m.)
-o0o-
CERTIFICATE
I certify that the foregoing is a correct transcript from
the record of proceedings in the above-entitled matter. I
further certify that the transcript fees format comply with
those prescribed by the Court and the Judicial Conference of
the United States.
signed dated 11/04/2006
Eileen M. Brewer,
Official Court Reporter
Texas CSR #3016
U.S. DISTRICT COURT